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Not Arminian

Rhamiel

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Hey guys
I normally do not debate here
some of you might know me from your Pub or sometimes I debate on GT
I mostly post in GT and OBOB

anyways, the thing that I see a lot of, is Calvinists referring to Catholics as Arminians.
We are not, Arminianism is a Protestant theology that grew out of Calvinism. Kind of a flip side of the same coin if you will.

I do not really care if Anglicans and Lutherans get called Arminians, it is not really my fight

But the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church predate Arminians and Calvinists
 

St_Worm2

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Hey Rhamiel, thanks for dropping by .. :wave: I would never call a Roman Catholic an "Arminian", in fact, I don't think anyone here would say that either. While the RC and the Arminian doctrines of "Prevenient Grace" are similar, that's about where your soteriolgical similarities end. So whoever is referring to RC's as Arminian simply does not fully understand what one or both of you believe.

Yours and His,
David
 
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jdbrown

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Hey guys
I normally do not debate here
some of you might know me from your Pub or sometimes I debate on GT
I mostly post in GT and OBOB

anyways, the thing that I see a lot of, is Calvinists referring to Catholics as Arminians.
We are not, Arminianism is a Protestant theology that grew out of Calvinism. Kind of a flip side of the same coin if you will.

I do not really care if Anglicans and Lutherans get called Arminians, it is not really my fight

But the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church predate Arminians and Calvinists

I think the term "Arminian" is wrongly being used as a synonym for "synergist".
 
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Rhamiel

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Hey Rhamiel, thanks for dropping by .. :wave: I would never call a Roman Catholic an "Arminian", in fact, I don't think anyone here would say that either. While the RC and the Arminian doctrines of "Prevenient Grace" are similar, that's about where your soteriolgical similarities end. So whoever is referring to RC's as Arminian simply does not fully understand what one or both of you believe.

Yours and His,
David


Ok, well that is good, I have heard a few people make this connection but maybe it is not as widespread as I believed
thank you for taking the time to respond
 
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singlecandle

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This is what the Catholic Encyclopedia says about Arminius:

"A leader was sure to rise from the Calvinistic ranks who should
point out the baneful corollaries of the Genevan creed, and be
listened to. Such a leader was Jacobus Arminius (Jakob Hermanzoon),professor at the University of Leyden."

Arminius also spent some time in Rome studying under the Roman Catholic
monk de Molinas.

According to Edward Hendrie's book The Anti-Gospel, most Calvinists believe that it was this time that Arminius spent in Rome that the Jesuits
recruited him to their point of view but that point cannot be proven. However, Luis de Molinas theology of "Molinism" was simply semi-pelagianism or just another form of pelaianism.

The Catholic Encyclopedia says of Molinism: "Molinism is an influential
system within Catholic theology for reconciling human free choice with God's grace, providence, foreknowledge, and predestination. Originating
within the Society of Jesus in the late sixteenth and early seventeenth
centuries, it encountered stiff opposition from Bezian Thomists and from
the self-styled Augustinian disciples of Michael Baius and Cornelius Jansen." -Alfred J. Freddoso, Catholic professor at Notre Dame.

Lastly, Hendries reveals in his book that the Jesuits admitted to "using"
Arminius to promote their doctrine of semi-pelagianism(aka: arminianism).
William Laud, the Archbishop of Canterbury, was working secretly with the Jesuits to infect the Church of England(Anglican Church) with Roman Catholic doctrine, including Arminianism. In 1645, Laud was executed
for treason against England. After his death, one of the papers found on his desk, as told by Augustus Toplady, said,

"March, 1628. A Jesuit's letter, sent to the Rector at Bruxels , about the ensuing Parliament.
Father Rector, let not the damp of astonishment seize upon your ardent
and zealous soul, in apprehending the sodaine and unexpected calling of a
Parliament. We have now many strings to our bow. We have planted that
soveraigne drugge Arminianisme, which we hope will purge the Protestants
from their heresie; and it flourisheth and beares fruit in due season. For
the better prevention of the Puritanes, the Arminians have already locked up the Duke's(of Buckingham) eares; and we have those of our owne religion, which stand continually at the Duke's chamber, to see who goes in and out: we cannot be too circumspect and careful in this regard. I am,
at this time, transported with joy, to see how happily all instrument and
means, as well great as lesser, co-operate unto our purposes. But, to return unto the maine fabricke:-OUR FOUNDATION IS ARMINIANISME.
The Arminians and projectors, as it appeares in the premises, affect
mutation. This we second and enforce by probable arguments."

That letter was written by a high Jesuit agent reporting to his superior at Brussels.


Based alone on this information, I would say it is highly misleading for
a Roman Catholic to affirm he is not Arminian when history and doctrine prove otherwise.

You can read all this information that I gleaned from the book, The Anti-Gospel here:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Anti-Gospel-Perversion-Christs-ebook/dp/B007G0IS74#reader_B007G0IS74
 
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Rhamiel

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This is what the Catholic Encyclopedia says about Arminius:

"A leader was sure to rise from the Calvinistic ranks who should
point out the baneful corollaries of the Genevan creed, and be
listened to. Such a leader was Jacobus Arminius (Jakob Hermanzoon),professor at the University of Leyden."

Arminius also spent some time in Rome studying under the Roman Catholic
monk de Molinas.

According to Edward Hendrie's book The Anti-Gospel, most Calvinists believe that it was this time that Arminius spent in Rome that the Jesuits
recruited him to their point of view but that point cannot be proven. However, Luis de Molinas theology of "Molinism" was simply semi-pelagianism or just another form of pelaianism.

The Catholic Encyclopedia says of Molinism: "Molinism is an influential
system within Catholic theology for reconciling human free choice with God's grace, providence, foreknowledge, and predestination. Originating
within the Society of Jesus in the late sixteenth and early seventeenth
centuries, it encountered stiff opposition from Bezian Thomists and from
the self-styled Augustinian disciples of Michael Baius and Cornelius Jansen." -Alfred J. Freddoso, Catholic professor at Notre Dame.

Lastly, Hendries reveals in his book that the Jesuits admitted to "using"
Arminius to promote their doctrine of semi-pelagianism(aka: arminianism).
William Laud, the Archbishop of Canterbury, was working secretly with the Jesuits to infect the Church of England(Anglican Church) with Roman Catholic doctrine, including Arminianism. In 1645, Laud was executed
for treason against England. After his death, one of the papers found on his desk, as told by Augustus Toplady, said,

"March, 1628. A Jesuit's letter, sent to the Rector at Bruxels , about the ensuing Parliament.
Father Rector, let not the damp of astonishment seize upon your ardent
and zealous soul, in apprehending the sodaine and unexpected calling of a
Parliament. We have now many strings to our bow. We have planted that
soveraigne drugge Arminianisme, which we hope will purge the Protestants
from their heresie; and it flourisheth and beares fruit in due season. For
the better prevention of the Puritanes, the Arminians have already locked up the Duke's(of Buckingham) eares; and we have those of our owne religion, which stand continually at the Duke's chamber, to see who goes in and out: we cannot be too circumspect and careful in this regard. I am,
at this time, transported with joy, to see how happily all instrument and
means, as well great as lesser, co-operate unto our purposes. But, to return unto the maine fabricke:-OUR FOUNDATION IS ARMINIANISME.
The Arminians and projectors, as it appeares in the premises, affect
mutation. This we second and enforce by probable arguments."

That letter was written by a high Jesuit agent reporting to his superior at Brussels.


Based alone on this information, I would say it is highly misleading for
a Roman Catholic to affirm he is not Arminian when history and doctrine prove otherwise.

You can read all this information that I gleaned from the book, The Anti-Gospel here:
The Anti-Gospel: The Perversion of Christ's Grace Gospel: Edward Hendrie: Amazon.com: Kindle Store


I am having a hard time finding information of Jacobus Arminius ever spending time in Rome
also I can not find sources that says he ever met with Luis de Molina

I will say that Molinism is similar to Arminianism, I could also say that Molinism has a lot in common with Calvinism.

As for the Catholic Encyclopedia quoting that a leader rose out of Calvinism who would point out its flaws, well it is a shock that Catholics view the doctrines of Calvinism as being deeply flawed?

the idea that the archbishop of Canterbury was working in secret with Jesuits seems a little outlandish.
 
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JM

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the idea that the archbishop of Canterbury was working in secret with Jesuits seems a little outlandish.

From what I know about Anglican church history, the Non-Conformists were dispised by the established State church, the Anglican State church functioned like the Roman church. I haven't studied the issue to feel comfortable stating the Archbishop of Canterbury worked with the Jesuits but I do not doubt that Laud was against Reform, Calvinism and evangelicalism in general.


Wiki has a list of charges against Laud here: Trial of Archbishop Laud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
That the said Archbishop at several times within these ten Years last past, at Westminster, and elsewhere within this Realm, contrary to the known Laws of this Land, hath endeavoured to advance Popery and Superstition within this Realm: and for that end and purpose hath wittingly and willingly received, harboured, and relieved divers Popish Priests and Jesuits, namely one called Sancta Clara, alias Damport, a dangerous Person, and Franciscan Friar; who having written a popish and feditious Book, intitled, Deus natura gratia, wherein the Thirty-nine Articles of the Church of England, establish'd by Act of Parliament, were much traduced and scandaliz'd, the said Archbishop had divers Conferences with him while he was in writing the said Book; and did also provide Maintenance and Entertainment for one Monsieur St. Gyles, a Popish Priest at Oxford, knowing him to be a Popish Priest.​
 
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JM

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Historical Collections - The trial of William Laud | Historical Collections of Private Passages of State: Volume 3 (pp. 1365-1381)
That in or about the Month of May 1640. presently after the Dissolution of the last Parliament, the said Archbishop, for the ends and purposes aforesaid, caused a Synod or Convocation of the Clergy to be held for the several Provinces of Canterbury and York; wherein were made and established by his means and procurement divers Canons and Constitutions Ecclesiastical, contrary to the Laws of this Realm, the Rights and Privileges of Parliament, the Liberty and Property of the Subject, tending also to Sedition, and of dangerous Consequence: And amongst other things the said Archbishop caused a most dangerous and illegal Oath to be therein made and contrived, the Tenour whereof followeth in these Words: That I A. B. do swear, that I do approve the Doctrine and Discipline or Government establish'd in the Church of England, as containing all things necessary to Salvation; and that I will not endeavour by myself, or any other, directly or indirectly, to bring in any Popish Doctrine, contrary to that which is so established: Nor will I ever give my consent to alter the Government of this Church by Archbishops, Bishops, Deans, and Arch-Deacons, &c. as it stands now established, and as by right it ought to stand; nor yet ever to subject it to the Usurpations and Superstitions of the See of Rome. And all these things do I plainly and sincerely acknowledge and swear according to the plain and common Sense and Understanding of the same Words, without any Equivocation or mental Evasion, or secret Reservation whatsoever; and this I do heartily, willingly and truly, upon the Faith of a Christian: So help me God in Jesus Christ. Which Oath the said Archbishop himself did take, and caused divers other Ministers of the Church to take the same, upon pain of Suspension, and Deprivation of their Livings, and other severe Penalties; and did also cause Godfrey, then Bishop of Gloucester, to be committed to Prison, for refusing to subscribe to the said Canons, and to take the said Oath; and afterwards, the said Bishop submitting himself to take the said Oath, he was set at liberty.
 
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FireDragon76

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I've never heard scholars mention Laud being influenced by the Jesuits. That sounds more like Puritan propaganda, though.

Molinism and Arminianism are like comparing apples and ham sandwiches. Arminianism is a complete soteriology, whereas Molinism is an explanation of God's foreknowledge and how it relates to human free will.
 
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Anto9us

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Who was Arminius?​
by Robert Godfrey​
(President & Church History Professor of Westminster Theological Seminary)​
 
"What is clear is that when Arminius was ordered to return to the Netherlands in 1586 to take up pastoral responsibilities in Amsterdam, he was given a very good letter of recommendation from Beza to the Dutch Reformed Church.

Before returning to Amsterdam, Arminius took a trip into Italy to see the sights. This trip was later used by some Calvinists to accuse Arminius of having Roman Catholic sympathies. But such charges were clearly untrue and unfair."

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/articles/arminius.html
 
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Anto9us

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From the Catholic Encyclopedia about Arminius:

"In 1586 he made a prolonged trip to Italy, which served to widen his mental horizon. Rumours beginning to spread that he had fallen under the influence of the Jesuits, Francisco Suárez and Bellarmin, he was recalled to Amsterdam, was pronounced orthodox, and appointed preacher of the reformed congregation."

No mention of Molinas - only about "rumors" concerning two other Jesuits.

The most scholarly treatment of comparing Molinas's and Arminius' views that I have seen never even mentioned a "trip to Italy" but merely said that in a "list of books in Arminius library" there was a copy of Molinas work. Having his book is a far cry from "studying under him". I will look for that article to give a link, I am pretty sure its source is a Calvinist author, like the Robert Godfrey article.
 
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Anto9us

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"As it turns out, historians have acquired an itemized list of the full contents of Arminius’ library. This list identifies a large portion of the authors listed by Sibelius—demonstrating that Arminius, indeed, maintained a significant collection of Jesuit writings.[46] Most notably, it shows that Arminius had a full copy of Molina’s Concordia. It seems, then, firmly established, that Molina had a considerable impact on Arminius’ intellectual development.[47] "

The Impact of Luis de Molina on Jacob Arminius | Truth Is A Man

I don't really suffer from JESUITAPHOBIA anyway - I know that in eschatology, this "Jesuit conspiracy theory" is used to impugn the origin of BOTH Futurism and Preterism; when in reality both eschatologies existed in the early church. They were not "dreamed up out of nothing" by Alcazar and Ribera to "get the Pope off the hook" as being the antichrist under Reformation Historicism eschatology.

I do not wish to debate doctrine - simply wish to point out points of HISTORY in the interest of FAIRNESS - it not fair to "demonize a trip to Italy" on Arminius' part

"considerable impact" - mmm - a bit much

Peter Baro might have had an impact on Arminius too, but he's no Jesuit - and so is not good fodder for a smear campaign
 
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Skala

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Arminianism came from the Reformed tradition, it is the flip side of the same coin as Calvinism
as a man made doctrine, it has nothing to do with the ancient Catholic Faith that has been handed down from the time of the Apostles till today

There's no need to capitalize the "C" in catholic.

I'm definitely in the catholic (universal) faith. I'm just not in the Roman Catholic Church denomination.
 
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Rhamiel

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There's no need to capitalize the "C" in catholic.

I'm definitely in the catholic (universal) faith. I'm just not in the Roman Catholic Church denomination.
not to get off topic
but the Calvinist interpretation of the Preservation of the Saints is not seen in the Apostolic Fathers nor in the Early Church.
sounds like a different faith to me
 
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Skala

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not to get off topic
but the Calvinist interpretation of the Preservation of the Saints is not seen in the Apostolic Fathers nor in the Early Church.
sounds like a different faith to me

Phil 1:6 He who began a work in you will complete it.

Do you agree with the Apostle Paul? Paul was an ECF. And Paul was an apostolic father. He believed it.
 
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