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Not Arminian

Skala

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Hey guys
I normally do not debate here
some of you might know me from your Pub or sometimes I debate on GT
I mostly post in GT and OBOB

anyways, the thing that I see a lot of, is Calvinists referring to Catholics as Arminians.
We are not, Arminianism is a Protestant theology that grew out of Calvinism. Kind of a flip side of the same coin if you will.

I do not really care if Anglicans and Lutherans get called Arminians, it is not really my fight

But the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church predate Arminians and Calvinists

The reformers believed that embracing Arminianism was a step away from reformation and back towards Roman Catholicism.

This tradition was passed down even as far as the hymn writers, such as Augustus Toplady (He authored "Rock of Ages") Here is what he said:

Arminianism "came from Rome, and leads thither again


If we sum up the evidence that has been given, we shall find its amount to be, that Arminianism came from the Church of Rome, and leads back again to the pit whence it was digged.
 
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Rhamiel

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The reformers believed that embracing Arminianism was a step away from reformation and back towards Roman Catholicism.

This tradition was passed down even as far as the hymn writers, such as Augustus Toplady (He authored "Rock of Ages") Here is what he said:

Arminianism "came from Rome, and leads thither again


If we sum up the evidence that has been given, we shall find its amount to be, that Arminianism came from the Church of Rome, and leads back again to the pit whence it was digged.

the evidence is that you do not like Arminianism and Arminius took a vacation to Italy one time....

oh and people you respect told you that it "came from Rome"
this coming from people who are, supposedly, not "respecters of men" and do not follow man made tradition

this diatribe is a man made tradition
born not out of facts but out of polemics from the 1600's
 
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Skala

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the evidence is that you do not like Arminianism and Arminius took a vacation to Italy one time....

oh and people you respect told you that it "came from Rome"
this coming from people who are, supposedly, not "respecters of men" and do not follow man made tradition

this diatribe is a man made tradition
born not out of facts but out of polemics from the 1600's

I do not like Arminianism because it isn't Biblical.
I also do not like Roman Catholicism for the same reason.

Pretty simple :cool:
 
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Rhamiel

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I do not like Arminianism because it isn't Biblical.
I also do not like Roman Catholicism for the same reason.

Pretty simple :cool:
commonality does not prove causality

and really, the "commonality" has been over stressed, Arminianism is a Protestant belief system
 
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Skala

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commonality does not prove causality

and really, the "commonality" has been over stressed, Arminianism is a Protestant belief system

Let's see:

Arminianism: Unlimited atonement
RCC: unlimited atonement

Arminianism: resistible grace
RCC: resistible grace

Arminianism: denial of perseverance of the saints
RCC: denial of perseverance of the saints

Arminianism: denial of total depravity (due to prev. grace)
RCC: denial of total depravity (due to prev. grace)

Arminianism: conditional election
RCC: conditional election

Five for five so far...seems like Arminianism came from Rome, just like Toplady said.
 
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Rhamiel

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Arminian sola scripture
Calvinism sola scripture

many Arminians (some modern evangelicals) do not view Baptism as regenerative
as far as I know this is also the Calvinist view

the ultra-egalitarian view seems to be popular in both camps

really, the things you listed are particular to Calvinist thought only, it does not prove that Arminianism came "from Rome" but that Calvinism has diverted greatly from the Ancient Christian Faith
I am not saying that Calvinism is unchristian, but I am saying that Calvinism has a lot of heterodox beliefs mixed in with Christianity
 
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Anto9us

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"really, the things you listed are particular to Calvinist thought only"

very true, my friend, the 5 TULIP points are CALVINIST ideas - not "rest of Christianity" ideas

ask a Greek Orthodox "are you a 5-pointer or 4-pointer?" and you'll get a blank look

concerning Sola Scripture - be it known that many Arminians come to it via John Wesley - who is not a Sola Scriptura subscriber - but rather we have the Wesleyan Quadrilateral instead of Sola Scriptura

"The reformers believed that embracing Arminianism was a step away from reformation and back towards Roman Catholicism."

and just exactly WHO are THE REFORMERS?

You surely can't mean Luther and Calvin and Zwingli - who passed away before there was any SUCH THING as Arminianism!

The 5 SOLAS - the 5 TULIP Points - these are CALVINIST doctrines

Not "rest of Christianity" doctrines

everything that is "NOT CALVINIST" is not necessarily Arminian

But go ahead and believe a HISTORY OTHER THAN REAL HISTORY if you must

Believe - contrary to Reason & history - that Luther Calvin and Zwingli went around hunting Arminians

believe a hymn writer and this "Hendrie" person whose maniacal book was linked to in this thread

don't look at some actual scholar from Westminster Seminary who knows good and well its unfair to accuse Arminius of being some Jesuit Double Agent

I pity yall if you swallow that

hard to discuss anything with anyone to whom History is not History

I have Catholic books on my shelf - it doesn't make me an "agent of the Jesuits"

I have a couple Korans too - I wanna see what those people think - that doesn't make me an agent of Islam

adieu
 
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Let's see:

Arminianism: Unlimited atonement
RCC: unlimited atonement

Arminianism: resistible grace
RCC: resistible grace

Arminianism: denial of perseverance of the saints
RCC: denial of perseverance of the saints

Arminianism: denial of total depravity (due to prev. grace)
RCC: denial of total depravity (due to prev. grace)

Arminianism: conditional election
RCC: conditional election

Five for five so far...seems like Arminianism came from Rome, just like Toplady said.

Yep. those are the five points of Arminianism, in contrast with the five points of Calvinism, and what do you know, seems Arminianism predates Arminius! Yes, we know it does, just as Calvinism predates Calvin.
 
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Skala

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"really, the things you listed are particular to Calvinist thought only"

very true, my friend, the 5 TULIP points are CALVINIST ideas - not "rest of Christianity" ideas

You couldn't be more wrong. The 5 points of Calvinism (TULIP) were not originally a positive assertion of doctrine, but a negative response to the 5 disagreements the Arminians had with the reformation.

The Arminian remonstance issued 5 points of disagreement to the dutch reformed church, and a council was convened (called the synod of dordt) and responded to each of the points in turn. Since there was 5 points of disagreement, there was, obviously, 5 answers/responses/rebuttals given.

TULIP being in "5 points" is not Calvinists' fault, but Arminians' fault. Calvinism in and of itself has a rich history with God's sovereignty touching every area of doctrine. Nobody ever sat down one day and decided to write up 5 distinct points of doctrine.

As JI Packer said, Calvinism only really has one point: God saves sinners.
 
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Skala

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Arminian sola scripture
Calvinism sola scripture

many Arminians (some modern evangelicals) do not view Baptism as regenerative

These are merely surface level differences between Arminianism and Catholicism. The heart of the two theologies/soteriology is exactly the same, as I have irrefutably demonstrated in the post above.
 
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Rhamiel

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These are merely surface level differences between Arminianism and Catholicism. The heart of the two theologies/soteriology is exactly the same, as I have irrefutably demonstrated in the post above.

both armianism and calvinism are basically self centered doctrines
they focus on the individual
with Catholicism the focus is more on the Church
kind of like with the Old Testament, the focus was on the salvation of Israel, and individuals being part of Israel was how God planned to save people.

calling sola scripture a "surface level difference" is not really being honest about what Protestantism is
this is a core doctrine among historic Protestantism
 
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both armianism and calvinism are basically self centered doctrines they focus on the individual

Actually, the focus of Arminianism is on the individual, while the focus of Calvinism is God, especially His sovereignty in salvation.

with Catholicism the focus is more on the Church

Indeed, Catholics and Protestants rarely agree on what is even meant by "Church".

kind of like with the Old Testament, the focus was on the salvation of Israel, and individuals being part of Israel was how God planned to save people.

Except being part of Israel never saved even one Israelite. Some Jews were of that mindset (Jesus addressed some of them), however one of the reasons the Apostle Paul mentions Abraham to the extent he does, is because Abraham was a Gentile.

calling sola scripture a "surface level difference" is not really being honest about what Protestantism is this is a core doctrine among historic Protestantism

I agree that it is a core doctrine and unfortunately often mistaken and portrayed as SolO Scriptura, when it is obvious from reading their writings, even the Reformers, such as John Calvin, sat on the shoulders of giants like Augustine. The difference between SolA Scriptura and any other view of authority is huge. When people put faith in Church traditions on the same or greater level of authority than Scripture itself, tradition becomes the interpreter, or the rule for interpreting, leaving little to no room for God the Holy Spirit in interpretation. I understand the pitfalls, for example, say two Christians sealed with the Holy Spirit, come to different interpretations, while both claiming the Holy Spirit gave them the interpretation. That can be problematic, but sadly the truth is, at least one of those Christians are mistaken and misguided, maybe both, and it is certain the Holy Spirit only leads into truth and not error, as God is not the author of confusion. How can the disagreement then be settled? With an oral tradition? An oral tradition may help shed some light, but in the end, it can only be settled by God Himself, and the means He has chosen to do this is by written tradition or Sacred Scripture, by figures whom were carried along by God the Holy Spirit, in such a way that the message did not originate from the figures themselves. Maybe you already know all of this, I do not know, but I hope it is helpful in some way however small.
 
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Rhamiel

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Actually, the focus of Arminianism is on the individual, while the focus of Calvinism is God, especially His sovereignty in salvation.
you really do not seem to understand Arminianism if you think they focus on man more then they focus on God
also, you can not see how self centered your own ideology is
kind of like a fish who has no concept of water
all you have ever known is a selfish mindset, so thinking of religion outside of such a self centered worldview seems to be impossible for many of you
 
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you really do not seem to understand Arminianism if you think they focus on man more then they focus on God

How is the ad hom above helpful to the discussion? I should understand Arminianism, considering I was one up until around 2003-04. There is a difference between emphasizing man's choice, and God's choice in salvation, the former is man centered, is dependent upon man, the later is God centered, is dependent upon God.

also, you can not see how self centered your own ideology is kind of like a fish who has no concept of water
all you have ever known is a selfish mindset, so thinking of religion outside of such a self centered worldview seems to be impossible for many of you

Here again you resort to personal accusations, technically ad hom. My ideology is God centered, in practice I fail to live up to it, because spiritual warfare is daily, and temptations are real, and the natural reaction to many instances is to return in kind. Yes, there is a real battle everyday between the selfish me, and the me who wants only to glorify God in everything. I do not expect that battle will end until I pass away. The only real escape from selfishness is God the Holy Spirit, and whether or not God will allow escape is really up to God, because even our selfishness can be used for the purposes of God.

From the time I married my wife, I have had to make many sacrifices for us, for the benefit of both of us, but my wife makes them too, so it is shared and mutual. Becoming a daddy myself about seven months ago, has especially shown me past selfishness, and yet I continue to see the same ugly principal rear its ugly head in my heart, even in typing these responses, rather than spending the same time with my family.

Anyway, I found Calvinism to be the only real (ideological) escape from personal relativism, the foolishness of post modernism, and the selfishness which ensues from it. Evidentialism is no escape, because evidence is not self-interpreting.

Soli Deo Gloria!
 
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Anto9us

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A couple of points of history - Rhamiel asserted that Sola Scriptura is a major deal in PROTESTANTISM - I would like to point out that Wesleyanism with its "Wesleyan Quadrilateral" as a Guide rather than SOLA SCRIPTURA is the "guide" for a sizeable chunk of Protestantism.

And that the Quadrilateral itself was adopted from the Anglican view of "Scripture, Reason, and Tradition" - Wesley simply split off EXPERIENCE from REASON as a separate component - whereas Anglicans such as HOOKER felt that experience was a PART of Reason.

I notice there is a "Scripture, Reason, and Tradition" Forum here at CF for Anglicans and "Old Catholics" - I don't know what "Old Catholic" is - but have gone to Episcopal churches and read Hooker and came to see his view not very different from Wesley, as said, Wesley just split Reason and Experience as two components, pairing them with Scripture and Tradition.

I submit that TRADITION is a part of one's viewpoint whether one thinks it is or not - for even the CANON of your SCRIPTURE is determined by the Tradition you are in - and it is a sheer fact of Christian History that the Protestants with their view of "66 books" have the NEWEST and SMALLEST set of Scripture, when compared with the historic churches of Catholicism and Orthodox with a capital "O".

I think a bit of history might be in order to dispel the calumny in this thread of Arminius being a "tool of the Jesuits" and all o that nonsense.

Jacob Arminius was matriculating elsewhere when his hometown of Odewater in Holland was massacred by the Spanish Army acting as an arm of the Catholic Church.

Arminius' mother and every one of his siblings was murdered in this massacre.

Devastated, the young Arminius made a long trip on foot to Oudewater to witness the devastation there - it was a horrifying personal loss for him (his father had passed early on) - this massacre by the Catholic Spanish troops wiped out the entire family of Arminius.

He was not a real "friend" of the Catholics, despite whether the Catholic Encyclopedia saw him as a "tool" of their cause or not. Big deal that he had books on his shelf by Catholic authors - who in that day and age would not have a library that included such if they had a career as a theologian and professor at a seminary?

There are plenty of People in Christendom who "believe in Free Will" and their belief in free will has no connection with Arminius.

And Arminius did not "sit at the feet of Molinas" and become some "secret agent" of the people who murdered his entire family at Oudewater. It was war. He may have "put it behind him" and moved on. But he did not become a "lover of the papacy".

"Sola Scriptura" and AN ABSENCE OF FREE WILL may be Luther and Calvin's deal, but they do not speak for Orthodox, Catholics,

AS WELL AS a great many Protestants in this matter.

The anti-logic in this thread would want to posit that

"Catholicism and Arminianism are not Calvinism, therefore, Arminianism and Catholicism are one and the same".

That's silly.
 
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A couple of points of history - Rhamiel asserted that Sola Scriptura is a major deal in PROTESTANTISM - I would like to point out that Wesleyanism with its "Wesleyan Quadrilateral" as a Guide rather than SOLA SCRIPTURA is the "guide" for a sizeable chunk of Protestantism.

And that the Quadrilateral itself was adopted from the Anglican view of "Scripture, Reason, and Tradition" - Wesley simply split off EXPERIENCE from REASON as a separate component - whereas Anglicans such as HOOKER felt that experience was a PART of Reason.

"Upon examination of Wesley's work, Outler theorized that Wesley used four different sources in coming to theological conclusions.[5]

Scripture
Wesley insisted that scripture is the first authority and contains the only measure whereby all other truth is tested. It was delivered by authors who were divinely inspired. It is a rule sufficient of itself. It neither needs, nor is capable of, any further addition. The scripture references to justification by faith as the gateway to scriptural holiness are well known to true Wesleyans: Deut. 30:6; Ps. 130:8; Ezek. 36:25, 29; Matt. 5:48; 22:37; Luke 1:69; John 17:20-23; Rom. 8:3-4; II Cor. 7:1; Eph. 3:14; 5:25-27; I Thess. 5:23; Titus 2:11-14; I John 3:8; 4:17.

Tradition
Wesley wrote that it is generally supposed that traditional evidence is weakened by length of time, as it must necessarily pass through so many hands in a continued succession of ages. Although other evidence is perhaps stronger, he insisted: "Do not undervalue traditional evidence. Let it have its place and its due honour. It is highly serviceable in its kind, and in its degree".[6] Wesley states that those of strong and clear understanding should be aware of its full force. For him it supplies a link through 1,700 years of history with Jesus and the apostles. The witness to justification and sanctification is an unbroken chain drawing us into fellowship with those who have finished the race, fought the fight, and who now reign with God in his glory and might.

Reason
Although scripture is sufficient unto itself and is the foundation of true religion. Wesley wrote: "Now, of what excellent use is reason, if we would either understand ourselves, or explain to others, those living oracles".[7] He states quite clearly that without reason we cannot understand the essential truths of Scripture. Reason, however, is not a mere human invention. It must be assisted by the Holy Spirit if we are to understand the mysteries of God. With regard to justification by faith and sanctification Wesley said that although reason cannot produce faith, when impartial reason speaks we can understand the new birth, inward holiness, and outward holiness. Although reason cannot produce faith, it can shorten the leap.

Experience
Apart from scripture, experience is the strongest proof of Christianity. "What the scriptures promise, I enjoy".[8] Again, Wesley insisted that we cannot have reasonable assurance of something unless we have experienced it personally. John Wesley was assured of both justification and sanctification because he had experienced them in his own life. What Christianity promised (considered as a doctrine) was accomplished in his soul. Furthermore, Christianity (considered as an inward principle) is the completion of all those promises. Although traditional proof is complex, experience is simple: "One thing I know; I was blind, but now I see." Although tradition establishes the evidence a long way off, experience makes it present to all persons. As for the proof of justification and sanctification Wesley states that Christianity is an experience of holiness and happiness, the image of God impressed on a created spirit, a fountain of peace and love springing up into everlasting life." - Wikipedia

The first line under Scripture in bold, is indeed Sola Scriptura. Nice try though to separate Protestants on a commonly shared evangelical doctrine.

I notice there is a "Scripture, Reason, and Tradition" Forum here at CF for Anglicans and "Old Catholics" - I don't know what "Old Catholic" is - but have gone to Episcopal churches and read Hooker and came to see his view not very different from Wesley, as said, Wesley just split Reason and Experience as two components, pairing them with Scripture and Tradition.

Both the Scriptures and Christ are self-attesting, however reason is a necessary component for any interpretation, and I hold that God the Holy Spirit, in the process which is an experience, reasons with the elect in the process illuminating and guiding into truth. Contrary to what some might believe, unregenerate people, the "natural man", can only gain so much knowledge, because Scripture is also "spiritually discerned" (1 Cor 2:14). So the unregenerate neither receive the gracious blessing of experiencing illumination in the process (Romans 8:7).

I submit that TRADITION is a part of one's viewpoint whether one thinks it is or not -

I agree there is a difference between Sola Scriptura (as historically defined), and SOLO Scriptura (a strawman which some mistakenly believe, new converts especially prone to the "lone wolf" approach).

for even the CANON of your SCRIPTURE is determined by the Tradition you are in -

I would argue the canon is self-attesting and established by the Church, the communities of Christians under guidance of the Holy Spirit, before councils ever made official statements.

and it is a sheer fact of Christian History that the Protestants with their view of "66 books" have the NEWEST and SMALLEST set of Scripture, when compared with the historic churches of Catholicism and Orthodox with a capital "O".

Obviously the above would be YOUR presuppositions speaking for you.

There are plenty of People in Christendom who "believe in Free Will" and their belief in free will has no connection with Arminius.

The connection is in the Arminian teaching of Predestination where God foresees the "free will" choices and elects based on them. Arminius actually died a Calvinist preacher, that is publicly, but it is for his private teachings that he is famous for.

The "free will" debate became an issue of priority because of Palagius, and Augustine maintained both the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man, just as the overwhelming majority of Calvinists have historically even. Further, free will is too broad, without further explanation, Palagius held to a libertarian free will, while Augustine held a compatibilist free will.

"Sola Scriptura" and AN ABSENCE OF FREE WILL may be Luther and Calvin's deal, but they do not speak for Orthodox, Catholics,

One only need to read John Calvin to understand how off base and misled your opinion "absence of free will" is.

Augustine's doctrine of "free will

"As to the Fathers, (if their authority weighs with us,) they have the term constantly in their mouths; but they, at the same time, declare what extent of meaning they attach to it. In particular, Augustine hesitates not to call the will a slave. In another passages he is offended with those who deny free will; but his chief reason for this is explained when he says, "Only lest any one should presume so to deny freedom of will, from a desire to excuse sin." It is certain he elsewhere admits, that without the Spirit the will of man is not free, inasmuch as it is subject to lusts which chain and master it. And again, that nature began to want liberty the moment the will was vanquished by the revolt into which it fell. Again, that man, by making a bad use of free will, lost both himself and his will. Again, that free will having been made a captive, can do nothing in the way of righteousness. Again, that no will is free which has not been made so by divine grace. Again, that the righteousness of God is not fulfilled when the law orders, and man acts, as it were, by his own strength, but when the Spirit assists, and the will (not the free will of man, but the will freed by God) obeys. He briefly states the ground of all these observations, when he says, that man at his creation received a great degree of free will, but lost it by sinning. In another place, after showing that free will is established by grace, he strongly inveighs against those who arrogate any thing to themselves without grace. His words are, "How much soever miserable men presume to plume themselves on free will before they are made free, or on their strength after they are made free, they do not consider that, in the very expression, free will, liberty is implied. 'Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty,' (2 Cor. 3: 17.) If, therefore, they are the servants of sin, why do they boast of free will? He who has been vanquished is the servant of him who vanquished him. But if men have been made free, why do they boast of it as of their own work? Are they so free that they are unwilling to be the servants of Him who has said, 'Without me ye can do nothing'?" (John 15: 5.)

In another passage he even seems to ridicule the word, when he says, "That the will is indeed free, but not freed - free of righteousness, but enslaved to sin." The same idea he elsewhere repeats and explains, when he says, "That man is not free from righteousness save by the choice of his will, and is not made free from sin save by the grace of the Saviour." Declaring that the freedom of man is nothing else than emancipation or manumission from righteousness, he seems to jest at the emptiness of the name. If any one, then, chooses to make use of this terms without attaching any bad meaning to it, he shall not be troubled by me on that account; but as it cannot be retained without very great danger, I think the abolition of it would be of great advantage to the Church. I am unwilling to use it myself; and others if they will take my advice, will do well to abstain from it." John Calvin, Institutes Book II Chapter 2

"...we allow that man has choice and that it is self-determined, so that if he does anything evil, it should be imputed to him and to his own voluntary choosing. We do away with coercion and force, because this contradicts the nature of the will and cannot coexist with it. We deny that choice is free, because through man's innate wickedness it is of necessity driven to what is evil and cannot seek anything but evil. And from this it is possible to deduce what a great difference there is between necessity and coercion. For we do not say that man is dragged unwillingly into sinning, but that because his will is corrupt he is held captive under the yoke of sin and therefore of necessity will in an evil way. For where there is bondage, there is necessity. But it makes a great difference whether the bondage is voluntary or coerced. We locate the necessity to sin precisely in corruption of the will, from which follows that it is self-determined." - John Calvin from Bondage and Liberation of the Will, pg. 69-70

A closing thought, the will of man is either a slave to sin, or a slave to Christ, a slave to Satan, or a slave to the Triune God of Christianity. Anything in between is the vain speculation of pagan philosophers.
 
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Anto9us

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"I would argue the canon is self-attesting and established by the Church"

So are you saying that the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox are simply WRONG by having a larger canon of Old Testament books?
 
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"I would argue the canon is self-attesting and established by the Church"

So are you saying that the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox are simply WRONG by having a larger canon of Old Testament books?

"Deuterocanonical books is a term used since the 16th century in the Catholic Church and Eastern Christianity to describe certain books and passages of the Christian Old Testament that are not part of the Hebrew Bible. The term is used in contrast to the protocanonical books, which are contained in the Hebrew Bible. This distinction had previously contributed to debate in the early Church about whether they should be classified as canonical texts. The term is used as a matter of convenience by the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church and other Churches to refer to books of their Old Testament which are not part of the Masoretic Text.

The word deuterocanonical comes from the Greek meaning 'belonging to the second canon'.

The original usage of the term distinguished these scriptures both from those considered non-canonical and from those considered protocanonical. However, some editions of the Bible include text from both deuterocanonical and non-canonical scriptures in a single section designated "Apocrypha". This arrangement can lead to conflation between the otherwise distinct terms "deuterocanonical" and "apocryphal"." - Wikipedia

"In essence, to say the canon is self-authenticating is simply to recognize that one cannot authenticate the canon without the canon appealing to the canon. A Self-authenticating canon is not just a canon that claims to have authority, nor is it simply a canon that bears internal evidence of authority, but one that guides and determines how that authority is to be established." - Michael Kruger Canon Revisited

1. The Divine Qualities of Scripture - The foundational basis of the first aspect of the canonical model is that because Scripture is from God Himself (inspired) it bears the very attributes of God. Though there is much Scripture that attests to this assertion, a brief reading through Psalm 119 will provide sufficient support. Scripture as the word of God has authority because of its source from God. This power does not stop at what it says but continues on it what it does (thus the evidence of its power is displayed). Scripture guides, gives light, corrects, instructs, comforts, confronts and is the primary means through which the Spirit of God works in the life of the believer and convicts the unbeliever of their sin and need of salvation. Another aspect in which the divine qualities of Scripture can be seen is in its unity in regards to doctrine, redemptive-historical focus and structural layout.

2. Apostolic Origins - This second aspect of the canonical model further speaks to the self-authenticating nature of the NT books because of "the foundational role played by the apostles as `ministers of the new covenant' (2 Cor. 3:6)." The emergence of the NT came not as an accident but as the natural result of merge of covenant, redemption and apostolicity.

3. Corporate Reception of the Canon - As the final aspect of the canonical model one can see that this is built on the foundation of the first two aspects. It is through the divine qualities and apostolic authority behind the NT books that the Holy Spirit elicits a response from the church to recognize these books as part of the canon. The church is drawn to the canon because the canon draws it to itself. The corporate reception of the canon is discussed in two phases under the emergence of the canonical core and the corporate reception of the canon.

The basic argument is that although the church plays a role in the recognition of the NT canon is does not determine its authority. The canon is self-authenticating and the church recognizes its authority. The difference and relationship between recognition and determination are important. It is God and not the church who began the canon and thus,

"the church cannot close the canon because it never started it to begin with." - Michael Kruger Canon Revisited
 
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JM

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Hi Rhamiel,

both armianism and calvinism are basically self centered doctrines they focus on the individual

One is self-advancing, the other self-deprecating...according to scripture of course. :D

with Catholicism the focus is more on the Church kind of like with the Old Testament, the focus was on the salvation of Israel, and individuals being part of Israel was how God planned to save people.

I would agree. RCC is all about the hierarchy of men after the old covenant type. We have a better covenant. (Hebrews 8)

Yours in the Lord,

jm

PS: Rhamiel, I know you really long to be a Calvinist. I will pray for you. Just give up the trappings of traditions and rest in Christ alone.
 
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