Non-traditionalists - start your own offshoots

[Your Neighbor]

Non-traditionalists, the traditionalists are not going to allow you to pull a Joseph Tkatch-style takeover as done in the Worldwide Church of God. At least not without a resistance.

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times Roman,Roman]Summarizing the actions of Herbert W. Armstrong's handpicked successor, Joseph W. Tkach, Samuele Bacchiocchi, in Worldwide Church of God: Crisis and Lessons, says this:[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman,Times Roman,Roman] [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times Roman,Roman]For four or five years after his accession in 1986 the senior Mr. Tkach enjoyed overwhelming support from the leaders and members. Gradually Mr. Armstrong's publications, especially his magnum opus, Mystery of the Ages, were withdrawn from circulation. The new leadership modified the church's prophetic emphasis and adopted a more mainstream Protestant approach. Similarly, the emphasis on obedience to God's commandments shifted to the acceptance of salvation by grace, irrespective of works of obedience. In late 1994 began the assault on the Sabbath, holy days, distinction between clean and unclean meats, and tithing. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times Roman,Roman]Bacchiocchi continues: [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times Roman,Roman]At first, church loyalists preferred to think that their Pastor General, Joseph W. Tkach, was unaware of the "New Theology" promoted by his administrative cabinet. …All doubts were finally resolved in December, 1994, when Joseph W. Tkach videotaped a sermon which was played in virtually all WCG congregations in early January, 1995. In that sermon, Tkach made it clear that he had embraced the new theology and was now prepared to enforce it by firing and/or disfellowshipping recalcitrant pastors and church members. [/FONT]​

 

[Adventist Dissident]

some is just a little bit to cranky tonight

 

[Your Neighbor]

some is just a little bit to cranky tonight

who? me? Your Neighbor not feeling neighborly?

 

[honorthesabbath]

Hi Neighbor--thank you for the post and the thread. It sure does seem that some antagonists would be more than happy to destroy the Historic Adventist demonination and replace it with 'their theology'!

 

[Adventist Dissident]

historic adventism, you are part of the independant ministry crowd

 

[Your Neighbor]

Hi Neighbor--thank you for the post and the thread. It sure does seem that some antagonists would be more than happy to destroy the Historic Adventist demonination and replace it with 'their theology'!

If I found myself in a denomination that doesn't teach the truth, I'd leave it for one that did. It's not like anyone is forcing people to stay in the denomination.

What Joseph Tkatch did in the Worldwide Church of God was no less than theft. Just think of how many people supported the work of Herbert W. Armstrong with finances, faithful works, and prayers only to have it all (buildings, educational facilities, media ministries, the denomination itself...) stolen away for a different belief and message. The truth is... there is no purpose for the Worldwide Church of God to exist today. It is no different from churches which pre-date it.

If you take away 1844, the investigative judgment, and the spirit of prophecy, there is no need for the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Other churches would do. There are multitudes of sabbath-keeping groups out there.
http://www.biblesabbath.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...urches.2C_Non-Adventist_in_north_Pennsylvania

 

[Adventist Dissident]

If I found myself in a denomination that doesn't teach the truth, I'd leave it for one that did. It's not like anyone is forcing people to stay in the denomination.

What Joseph Tkatch did in the Worldwide Church of God was no less than theft. Just think of how many people supported the work of Herbert W. Armstrong with finances, faithful works, and prayers only to have it all (buildings, educational facilities, media ministries, the denomination itself...) stolen away for a different belief and message. The truth is... there is no purpose for the Worldwide Church of God to exist today. It is no different from churches which pre-date it.

If you take away 1844, the investigative judgment, and the spirit of prophecy, there is no need for the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

if you take away 1844 and the investigative judgement, people would not think we are weirdo's

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Theft? The Worldwide church of God went from a cult to a real denomination and you call it theft. If truth is based upon peoples contributions to a church the reformation would have never occurred.

Joseph Tkatch's book Transformed by the Truth is available on the WCG website. Here is the foreword written by Hank Hanagraaf.

Transformed by Truth, by Joseph Tkach
Foreword, by Hank Hanegraaff​

The Worldwide Church of God has embarked upon a course virtually uncharted in church history—a course that has taken them from the kingdom of the cults to the kingdom of Christ. In Transformed by Truth, Joseph Tkach, leader of the Worldwide Church of God, candidly describes the movement’s transformation from the perspective of his own personal awakening. During their pilgrimage from cultism to the cross, I have come to know Joseph as both a friend and as a brother in Christ. I have observed firsthand his courage, his integrity, and his absolute commitment to Scripture as the final court of arbitration.​

Joseph’s personal transformation, as well as the transformation of the Worldwide Church of God, has not come without cost. Income has plummeted, staff have been laid off, membership has declined, churches have broken off into splinter groups, families have separated, and friendships have been severed.
The transformation, however, has been well worth the cost. The leadership of the Worldwide Church of God now champions essential Christian doctrine. Their flagship magazine, The PIain Truth, is now focused on the person and work of Jesus Christ rather than on sensationalistic end-time speculations. As Joseph wrote in the Christian Research Journal,

Gone is our obsession with a legalistic interpretation of the Old Testament, our belief in British Israelism, and our insistence on our fellowship’s exclusive relationship with God. Gone are our condemnations of medical science, the use of cosmetics, and traditional Christian celebrations such as Easter and Christmas. Gone is our long-held view of God as a "family" of multiple "spirit beings" into which humans may be born.
​

The changes within the Worldwide Church of God are a tremendous encouragement to those of us who labor in cult evangelism. If God can redirect entire movements by changing the hearts of their leaders, there’s no telling what He may yet do through our continued faithfulness. The transformation of Joseph Tkach and the Worldwide Church of God is an enduring reminder that our mission is to reach, rather than repel.

 

[Sophia7]

who? me? Your Neighbor not feeling neighborly?

Evangelical and Progressive Adventists are a part of the SDA Church, whether you like it or not. I'm pretty sure Jesus would consider them your neighbors, too.

 

[woobadooba]

Evangelical and Progressive Adventists are a part of the SDA Church, whether you like it or not. I'm pretty sure Jesus would consider them your neighbors, too.

Jesus would never approve of this division. The church is to be united in spirit and in truth. These opposing groups that exist within it are a reproach to God.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Jesus would never approve of this division. The church is to be united in spirit and in truth. These opposing groups that exist within it are a reproach to God.

Isn't that the kind of reasoning the Pharisees used to justify killing Christ. Isn't that the same kind of reasoning that Saul used when he persecuted Christians. When you start putting your views unto God it leads to all kinds of atrocities, the inquisition, witch trials and even genocide. No I think Christians need to be a lot more circumspect than the above comment.

 

[reddogs]

Non-traditionalists, the traditionalists are not going to allow you to pull a Joseph Tkatch-style takeover as done in the Worldwide Church of God. At least not without a resistance.




[FONT=Times New Roman,Times Roman,Roman]Summarizing the actions of Herbert W. Armstrong's handpicked successor, Joseph W. Tkach, Samuele Bacchiocchi, in Worldwide Church of God: Crisis and Lessons, says this:[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times Roman,Roman]For four or five years after his accession in 1986 the senior Mr. Tkach enjoyed overwhelming support from the leaders and members. Gradually Mr. Armstrong's publications, especially his magnum opus, Mystery of the Ages, were withdrawn from circulation. The new leadership modified the church's prophetic emphasis and adopted a more mainstream Protestant approach. Similarly, the emphasis on obedience to God's commandments shifted to the acceptance of salvation by grace, irrespective of works of obedience. In late 1994 began the assault on the Sabbath, holy days, distinction between clean and unclean meats, and tithing. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times Roman,Roman]Bacchiocchi continues: [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times Roman,Roman]At first, church loyalists preferred to think that their Pastor General, Joseph W. Tkach, was unaware of the "New Theology" promoted by his administrative cabinet. …All doubts were finally resolved in December, 1994, when Joseph W. Tkach videotaped a sermon which was played in virtually all WCG congregations in early January, 1995. In that sermon, Tkach made it clear that he had embraced the new theology and was now prepared to enforce it by firing and/or disfellowshipping recalcitrant pastors and church members. [/FONT]​

We are family, every family has differences, but they love each other and will do all in their power to help each other in gaining eternal life.

I will always fight for the truth and whether Ice, or RC or Sophie or Jim brings it to us, the Holy Spirit will open our eyes and we shall see. It is in the fierce fire of the struggle for truth that we study, learn, understand and become molded by God and in which will stay engaged like Jacob till God shows us His truth and we are blessed....

Jacob Wrestles With God

Genesis 32:22-30 That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two maidservants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23 After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. 24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak."
But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me."
27 The man asked him, "What is your name?"
"Jacob," he answered.
28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, [e] because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."
29 Jacob said, "Please tell me your name."
But he replied, "Why do you ask my name?" Then he blessed him there. 30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, [f] saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

 

[Sophia7]

Jesus would never approve of this division. The church is to be united in spirit and in truth. These opposing groups that exist within it are a reproach to God.

How would you suggest that all of the differing groups become united?

 

[Jimlarmore]

Evangelical and Progressive Adventists are a part of the SDA Church, whether you like it or not. I'm pretty sure Jesus would consider them your neighbors, too.

It seems to me that no matter what the issues in life are all about there is always a liberal and a conservative view/perspective for them. It also seems to me that in the last few years the differences have been getting greater and greater between these two camps, ( signs of the times maybe ?). In the political arena a standing fued exists between the so-called progressive liberals/left and the conservative right. Some have even pegged this on-going fued as a culture war between secular progressives and conservatives. Extremes either way is not good in my opinion.

However, I think Sophia is right in that we need to love our neighbors and treat them with respect. It saddens me to see a deepening division in our church. I don't think our Lord and Savior would approve of it and I certainly don't think He would approve of the way we treat each other on this forum at times. Satan loves division and strife and he will do all he can to divide us on any level he can.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[honorthesabbath]

Ah ha!!! And here it is—just as I’ve always knew! Those who are weak and without understanding of the historic Adventist faith—are AFRAID to be different! Thanks for finally revealing that sentiment to the world Ice.

I have a nephew who was about to leave the church because he had gone to the anti-Adventist sites—even those put out by our own membership—and he lamented the same sentiment! He said, “Mom—the whole world thinks we are WEIRD!!! Thank God thru earnest study—he now correctly understands the IJ and other doctrines that those from within are trying to destroy.

Well as the old saying goes, “If you can’t stand the heat—get OUT of the kitchen.” I don’t mind being weird for the truth. And so progressives—as long as you are carrying the Adventist name—the world is going to regard you as weird. So guess what—your only recourse is to get out of our church and go join one more to your liking or do as some others have—start your own religion. All I hear is you whining and belly-aching over our doctrines—well—there’s the door. Take your false doctrines you are constantly (and rudely) trying to shove down our throats and leave us alone. We have rejected your theories as false and are quite tired of the constant attacks by you.

It’s time it was said—it needed to be said. If you can’t take the criticism of the world against your church—what are you going to do in the time of trouble? Oh I know—you’ll deny—deny—deny!!

 

[woobadooba]

How would you suggest that all of the differing groups become united?

It's simple. People need to humble themselves and rightly learn how to divide the Word of Truth.

 

[tall73]

Ah ha!!! And here it is—just as I’ve always knew! Those who are weak and without understanding of the historic Adventist faith—are AFRAID to be different! Thanks for finally revealing that sentiment to the world Ice.

Sorry but I don't mind being different. I do mind very much not being able to defend the IJ from the Bible.

Have you read the Glacier View materials?
Have you read the Daniel and Revelation Committee materials?
Have you heard of the 5 year secrect committee to resolve the issues in the sanctuary doctrine?


Do you really think everyone who has a problem just doesn't understand these teachings?

I have a nephew who was about to leave the church because he had gone to the anti-Adventist sites—even those put out by our own membership—and he lamented the same sentiment! He said, “Mom—the whole world thinks we are WEIRD!!! Thank God thru earnest study—he now correctly understands the IJ and other doctrines that those from within are trying to destroy.

Good, then you can help me resolve my issues with the IJ. I will show you the thread where the conversation is going on if you are up to it.

Well as the old saying goes, “If you can’t stand the heat—get OUT of the kitchen.” I don’t mind being weird for the truth. And so progressives—as long as you are carrying the Adventist name—the world is going to regard you as weird. So guess what—your only recourse is to get out of our church and go join one more to your liking or do as some others have—start your own religion. All I hear is you whining and belly-aching over our doctrines—well—there’s the door. Take your false doctrines you are constantly (and rudely) trying to shove down our throats and leave us alone. We have rejected your theories as false and are quite tired of the constant attacks by you.

It’s time it was said—it needed to be said. If you can’t take the criticism of the world against your church—what are you going to do in the time of trouble? Oh I know—you’ll deny—deny—deny!!

You don't know ice and I am thankful you are completely wrong about him. I have known him for 13 years and he was until very recently a traditional adventist. He was not afraid to be different. He now feels that he need not be different because the church is wrong on this issue.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

It's simple. People need to humble themselves and rightly learn how to divide the Word of Truth.

Yeeesssss my master (hum ha hum ha hum ha)

 

[honorthesabbath]

Tall--as i said--it's been studied--and I agree with it-I have no desire to go over that long road again in this forum--I've done it before!

 

[Your Neighbor]

Theft? The Worldwide church of God went from a cult to a real denomination and you call it theft.

I do not support the teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong. As a matter of fact, I first learned about the sabbath, the state of the dead, and the signs of the times from the old man. He sure did a better job on those teachings than his SDA TV contemporary, George Vandeman. (I was amazed by Vandeman's lack of "testicular fortitude" when presenting a several-week series about the Antichrist on IT IS WRITTEN when I first became SDA - he never identified who it was.) Of course, Armstrong held false teachings, such as you can become God, an earthly millennium, a second chance at salvation, the holy Spirit is impersonal, the little horn/beasts of Rev. are future powers, etc... But that is beside the point. People who believed in Armstrong and his teachings were robbed after HWA's death of everything they held as important.

Is that what you 1844, IJ, EGW rejectors want to do to real SDA's?

I say this in love - It's time for some to take a little hike over to the Seventh Day Baptist Church, the Church of God 7th Day, the Sunday-keeping Church of your choice. Or you could start your own little offshoots. I guarantee they will remain small and insignificant, just as every other EGW-rejecting "Adventist" group before you.

J.N.Loughborough, ML 10 THE MARION REBELLION page 0062 paragraph 3

There Elder Ingraham showed Elder White a letter he received from Snook ...we learned that Snook and Brinkerhoff were teaching that the message would go forward as soon as it was rid of Sister White's testimonies.

Boy, were they wrong! How many Church of God 7th Day churches have you seen? people have you met? TV/satellite TV programs have watched? Radio programs have heard? Magazines have read?