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Non-theism

UMP

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challenger said:
Fine, if you want, I'm an evil fool who can only do evil things and hates everybody, but I'm not going to discuss this with you any longer, you obviously have nothing on topic to say.
We're all "evil fools", including me. However, through the blood of Jesus Christ I am redeemed.

Ephesians 2:
[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
[4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
[7] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 
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vajradhara

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Namaste Challenger,


thank you for the post.

i've not read the whole thread yet, however, what you are describing is, essentially, Santana Dharma.... Hinduism.

i'm going to read the rest of the posts now and see if the tenor of the conversation continues in this vein.
 
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vajradhara

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Namaste UMP,

thank you for the post.

UMP said:
This thread is about Atheism. The quote is a direct application to the topic. You can stick your head in the ground till the official language of Puerto Rico becomes Mandarin Chinese. It makes no difference.
It's not a pop, It's God word and it's a sword.
actually, if you re-read the OP, you will note that this thread is about non-theism. this could include a wide range of beliefs, up to and including atheistism, however, you should be clearly aware that these are different concepts.

it may not seem like that to you at this time, however, that does not change the fact that they are distinct topics and subjects.
 
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UMP

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vajradhara said:
Namaste UMP,

thank you for the post.


actually, if you re-read the OP, you will note that this thread is about non-theism. this could include a wide range of beliefs, up to and including atheistism, however, you should be clearly aware that these are different concepts.

it may not seem like that to you at this time, however, that does not change the fact that they are distinct topics and subjects.
I respectfully disagree.
 
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vajradhara

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Namaste UMP,

thank you for the civil response.

UMP said:
I respectfully disagree.
it's perfectly acceptable for you to disagree, i don't think that anyone is denying that.

that, however, does not mean that you interpetation of Challengers statements are accurate :)

in point of fact, Challenger would more properly be considered Agnostic, based on the information in this thread alone. he's plainly said that he doesn't know and thus doesn't care. this is different than asserting that he's sure that there isn't, which would be more consistent with the atheist position.

i suppose that we get into what i call the "emptiness of words". words are symbols we use to communicate our experience of reality to others. these words are descriptions of the experience, not the experience itself. if we are not using the same symbol set, we are likely to use terms in different ways and in different senses and thus, our communication breaks down.

forum communication is especially difficult as humans get a lot of information through body language, tone, inflection and pace... all of which are lost on the 'net.

if i may inquire, what does the word "theist" mean to you?
 
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Fuzzy

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UMP said:
That's the point. If you can't get past the non-existence of God, there IS NO PROGRESS. There is....nothing.
But there is obviously SOMETHING, in the form of matter, like your keyboard,
air, like I'm breathing, and light. There is an existence without, with, or
in spite of God. Non-theism, if I'm reading the OP right, isn't denying
the existence of God, just stating that it's too much of a concept for us
to know, in the same way that we know, say, metal rusts or fire makes things
hot. The OP is that there may be a god, there may not be a god, but
a definitive answer is beyond our mortal, material comprehension. You have
faith that there is, and that He's given you and your house a specific
codex to follow. Challenger is just explaining his point of view, that he
can't know if there is or is not a "god," and it's irrelevant to his (challenger's)
existence.

You, UMP, define your life in terms of your relationship to the God of the
bible. You've stated elsewhere you don't have, and won't have, a life
without Jesus. That's your chosen, for lack of a better term, "tool" for
operating your life. Non-theism is challenger's

Atheism says there is no "God." Non-theism says we can't know one way
or another. There is a difference there. One that goes against YOUR
faith, and is so minute from your perspective, that you don't care, but
the difference is there.
 
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challenger

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vajradhara said:
Namaste Challenger,


thank you for the post.
Thank you :)

i've not read the whole thread yet, however, what you are describing is, essentially, Santana Dharma.... Hinduism.

i'm going to read the rest of the posts now and see if the tenor of the conversation continues in this vein.
Interesting, I thought Santana Dharma was pantheistic, do tell please...
 
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challenger

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thank you fuzzy
Fuzzy said:
But there is obviously SOMETHING, in the form of matter, like your keyboard,
air, like I'm breathing, and light. There is an existence without, with, or
in spite of God. Non-theism, if I'm reading the OP right, isn't denying
the existence of God, just stating that it's too much of a concept for us
to know, in the same way that we know, say, metal rusts or fire makes things
hot. The OP is that there may be a god, there may not be a god, but
a definitive answer is beyond our mortal, material comprehension. You have
faith that there is, and that He's given you and your house a specific
codex to follow. Challenger is just explaining his point of view, that he
can't know if there is or is not a "god," and it's irrelevant to his (challenger's)
existence.

You, UMP, define your life in terms of your relationship to the God of the
bible. You've stated elsewhere you don't have, and won't have, a life
without Jesus. That's your chosen, for lack of a better term, "tool" for
operating your life. Non-theism is challenger's

Atheism says there is no "God." Non-theism says we can't know one way
or another. There is a difference there. One that goes against YOUR
faith, and is so minute from your perspective, that you don't care, but
the difference is there.
Kinda what I'm saying, though one thing:
That's your chosen, for lack of a better term, "tool" for
operating your life. Non-theism is challenger's
I don't really use non-theism as a tool to live my life, its really more that I don't use God, its more of a small subset of my ideas, if I use a "tool" in that way, its probably more humanism.
 
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vajradhara

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Namaste Challenger,

thank you for the post.

challenger said:
Interesting, I thought Santana Dharma was pantheistic, do tell please...
yes, many people have this understanding, incorrect though it may be :)

i will say upfront that my understanding of SantanaDharma is not as deep or as lucid as the beings that actually engage in the praxis.

recall, that during the development of the SantanaDharma tradition, there have been 3 (iirc) major developmental periods and they differ from each other to some degrees.

perhaps, this post, from way back in the day, would be able to elucidate some of the essentials a bit more clearly:

the extent to which the mythologies-and therewith psychologies- of the Orient and Occident diverged in the course of the period between the dawn of civilization in the Near East and the present age of mutal rediscovery appears in their opposed version of the shared mythological image of the first being, who was originally one but became two.

the best known Occidental example of this image of the first being, split in two, which seem to be two but are actually one, is, for course, that of the Book of Genesis, second chapter, where it is turned, however, to a different sense. For the couple is spearated here by a superior being, who, as we are told, caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man and, while he slept, took one of his ribs.

in the Indian version it is the god himself that divides and becomes not man alone but all creation; so that everything is a manifestation of that single inhabiting divine substance: there is no other; whereas in the Bible, God and man, from the beginning, are distinct. Man is made in the image of God, indeed, and the breath of God has been breathed into his nostrils; yet his being, his self, is not that of God, nor is it one with the universe. The fashioning of the world, of animals, and of Adam (who then became Adam and Eve) was accomplished not within the sphere of divinity but outside of it.

there is, consequently, an intrinsic, not merely formal, separation. and the goal of knowledge cannot be to see God here and now in all things; for God is not in things. God is transcendent. God is beheld only by the dead. the goal of knowledge has to be, rather, to know the relationship of God to His creation, or, more specifically, to man, and through such knowledge, by God's grace, to link one's own will back to that of the Creator.

moreover, according to the Biblical version of this myth, it was only after creation that man fell, whereas in the Indian example creation itself was a fall - the fragmentation of a God. and the God is not condemned. Rather, his creation, his "pouring forth" is described as an act of voluntary, dynamic will-to-be-more, which anteceded creation and has, therefore, a metaphysical, symbolical, not literal, historical meaning. the fall of Adam and Eve was an event within the already created frame of time and space, an accident that should not have taken place. the myth of the Self in the form of a man, on the other hand, who looked around and saw nothing but himself, and said "I", felt fear, and then desired to be two, tells of an intrinsic, not errant, factor in the manifold of being, the correction or undoing of which would not improve, but dissolve, creation. the Indian point of view is metaphyscial, poetical; the Biblical, ethical and historical.

Adam's fall and exile from the garden was thus in no sense a metaphysical departure of divine substance from itself, but an event only in the history, or pre-history, of man. this event in the created world has been followed throughout the remaindeer of the book by the record of man's linkage and failures of linkage back to God - again, historically conceived. for, as we next hear, God himself, at a certain point in the course of time, out of his own violition, moved toward man, instituting a new law in the form of a covenant with a certain people. these became, therewith, a priestly race, unique in the world. God's reconciliation with man, of whose creation he had repented (Gen 6:6) was to be achieved only by virtue of this particular community - in time: for in time there should take place the realization of the Lord God's kingdom on earth, when the heathen monarchies would crumble and Israel would be saved, when men would "cast forth their idols of silver and their idols of gold, which they made to themselves to worship, to the moles and to the bats."

in the Indian view, on the contrary, what is divine here is divine there also; nor has anyone to wait - or even to hope - for a "day of the Lord." for what has been lost is in each his very self (atman), here and now, requiring only to be sought. Or, as they say: "only when men shall roll up space like a piece of leather will there be an end of sorrow apart from knowing God."

the question arises (again historical) in the world dominated by the Bible, as to the identity of the favored community, and three are well known to have developed claims: the Jewish, the Christian and the Muslim, each supposing itself to have been authorized by a particular revelation. God, that is to say, though conceived as outside of history and not himself its substance (transcendent: not immanent), is supposed to have engaged himself miraculously in the enterprise of restoring fallen man through a covenant, a sacrament, or a revealed book, with a view to a general, communal experience of fulfillment yet to come. the world is corrupt and man a sinner; the individual, however, through engagement along with God in the destiny of the only authorized community, participates in the coming glory of the kingdom of righteousness, when the "glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together." (Ish 40:5)

in the experience of India, on the other hand, although the holy mystery and power have been understood to be indeed transcendent, they are also, at the same time, immanent. it's not that the divine is everywhere: it is that the divine is everything. so that one does not require any outside reference, revelation, sacrament, or authorized community to return to it. one has but to recognized (re-cognize) what is within. deprived of this recognition, we are removed from our own reality by a cerebral shortsightedness which is called in Sanskrit "maya", "delusion".

Maya is from the root verb "ma" - to measure, measure out, to form, to build - denoting, in the first place, the power of a god or demon to produce illusory effects, to change form, and to appear under deceiving masks; in the second place, "magic", the production of illusions and, in warfare, camoflage, deceptive tactics; and finally, in the philosophical discourse, the illusion superimposed upon reality as an effect of ignorance).

instead of the Biblical exile from a geographically, historically conceived garden wherein God waslk in the cool of the day (Gen 3:8), we have in India, therefore, already circa 700 BCE (some three hundred years before the putting together of the Pentateuch), a psychological reading of the great theme.

the shared myth of the primal androgyne is applied in the two traditions to the same task - the exposition of man's distance, in his normal secular life, from the divine Alpha and Omega. yet the arguments radically differ, and therefore support two radically different civilizations. for, if man has been removed from the divine through an historical event, it will be an historical event that leads him back, whereas, if it has been by some sort of psychological displacement that he has been blocked, psychology will be his vehicle of return. and so it is that in India the final focus of concern is not the community (though the holy community playes a large part), but yoga.

the Indian term "yoga" is dervied from the Sanskrit root verb "yuj" - to link, join or unite - which is related etymologically to "yoke" - a yoke of oxen, and in this sense analgous to the word "religion" (Latin - re-ligio) - to link back or bind. man, the creature, is by religion bound back to God. however, religion, religio, refers to a linking historically conditioned by way of a covenant, sacrament or revealed book, whereas yoga is the psychological linking of the mind to that superordinated principle "by which the mind knows" (Up Kena). furthermore, in yoga what is linked is finally the self to itself, consciousness to consciousness; for what had seemed, through maya, to be two are in reality not so; whereas in religion what are linked are God and man, which are not the same.
 
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Fuzzy

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challenger said:
I don't really use non-theism as a tool to live my life, its really more that I don't use God, its more of a small subset of my ideas, if I use a "tool" in that way, its probably more humanism.
Thank you for clarifying. I chose a rather clunky phrase because I
didn't want to presume. So, anyway, :thumbsup:
 
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markie

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UMP said:
Psalms 53:1
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good."
You can't respond by quoting scripture to somebody who doesn't believe thee bible. you might shouls read 1 Coriinthians chapter 2, particularely verses 14-16.
 
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