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Non-theism

challenger

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I just wanted to explain my beliefs as a non-theist, particularly to see if anybody has any constructive criticism or if there are any holes in my arguments:

What is non-theism?
Essentially a non-theist is someone who does not have faith in a personal God, in non-theist philosophy, God's existence or inexistence is irrelevant.

For simplicity's sake, when I say God here, I mean an intelligent, supernatural entity (or group of such entities) which created the universe and by supernatural, I mean not bound by the laws of physics as we understand them, particularly cause and effect.

Why non-theism?
First off, there is no evidence (to my knowledge) that theists are more moral people or that they are less likely to do anything society traditionally views as "wrong" or "evil". Thus God is unecessary for a healthy human society to exist, moral behaviour is dependent on individuals, not upon absolutes imposed by a divine entity. Hence unless God can be shown to have a useful function, such an entity is irrelevant.

So outside of morality, what function is God claimed to perform? The first answer that comes to my mind is the idea of an afterlife. Leaving aside the question of whether eternal consciousness is any better than oblivion (I'm not so sure that it is), we are innevitably led to the idea of "Pascal's Wager". Besides the fact that the odds of picking the "right religion" are incredibly slim, even if there was only one possible true religion with a God who punishes you for picking the wrong one, I personally could not bring myself to worship such an entity. How can one possibly spend eternity in willing service to a tyrant? I'd go insane (assuming that such a God would even allow me that much free will). Hence the afterlife/Pascal's Wager is not a valid reason to be a theist

The above two paragraphs cover my thoughts on faith in a personal God. The next two paragraphs will adress the argument for the existence of an intelligent creator God.

Next, the "first cause" argument, this classical argument runs thus: "everything requires a cause, hence there must be a first cause, this cause would have to be outside of the laws of physics as we understand them (and hence can be described as a "God"), or it too would require a cause". The error in this logic is to assume that the universe is temporally finite, that is to say, that the universe doesn't stretch into an infinite expanse of time. Scientifically speaking we can't assume either way. Even if the first cause argument were not fallacious, it would tell us nothing of the nature of such a God and hence we still wouldn't know which God to worship.

Similar to the first cause argument is the "divine watchmaker" argument, the argument that the complexity of the universe lends itself to intelligent creation. The example often used is a watch in a desert with no footprints around for miles. However, this is merely anthropomorphising, we know that a watch cannot make itself and thus has to be made, we don't know either way whether a universe has to be made. After all, snowflakes are incredibly complex, but they are no individually designed by an intelligent entity, despite their subjective beauty and complexity.

In conclusion, God is irrelevant to humanity, both morally and logically, we just can't know whether God exists or not, so why worry about it?

Please tell me if I've missed anything.
 
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UMP

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challenger said:
I just wanted to explain my beliefs as a non-theist, particularly to see if anybody has any constructive criticism or if there are any holes in my arguments:

What is non-theism?
Essentially a non-theist is someone who does not have faith in a personal God, in non-theist philosophy, God's existence or inexistence is irrelevant.

For simplicity's sake, when I say God here, I mean an intelligent, supernatural entity (or group of such entities) which created the universe and by supernatural, I mean not bound by the laws of physics as we understand them, particularly cause and effect.

Why non-theism?
First off, there is no evidence (to my knowledge) that theists are more moral people or that they are less likely to do anything society traditionally views as "wrong" or "evil". Thus God is unecessary for a healthy human society to exist, moral behaviour is dependent on individuals, not upon absolutes imposed by a divine entity. Hence unless God can be shown to have a useful function, such an entity is irrelevant.

So outside of morality, what function is God claimed to perform? The first answer that comes to my mind is the idea of an afterlife. Leaving aside the question of whether eternal consciousness is any better than oblivion (I'm not so sure that it is), we are innevitably led to the idea of "Pascal's Wager". Besides the fact that the odds of picking the "right religion" are incredibly slim, even if there was only one possible true religion with a God who punishes you for picking the wrong one, I personally could not bring myself to worship such an entity. How can one possibly spend eternity in willing service to a tyrant? I'd go insane (assuming that such a God would even allow me that much free will). Hence the afterlife/Pascal's Wager is not a valid reason to be a theist

The above two paragraphs cover my thoughts on faith in a personal God. The next two paragraphs will adress the argument for the existence of an intelligent creator God.

Next, the "first cause" argument, this classical argument runs thus: "everything requires a cause, hence there must be a first cause, this cause would have to be outside of the laws of physics as we understand them (and hence can be described as a "God"), or it too would require a cause". The error in this logic is to assume that the universe is temporally finite, that is to say, that the universe doesn't stretch into an infinite expanse of time. Scientifically speaking we can't assume either way. Even if the first cause argument were not fallacious, it would tell us nothing of the nature of such a God and hence we still wouldn't know which God to worship.

Similar to the first cause argument is the "divine watchmaker" argument, the argument that the complexity of the universe lends itself to intelligent creation. The example often used is a watch in a desert with no footprints around for miles. However, this is merely anthropomorphising, we know that a watch cannot make itself and thus has to be made, we don't know either way whether a universe has to be made. After all, snowflakes are incredibly complex, but they are no individually designed by an intelligent entity, despite their subjective beauty and complexity.

In conclusion, God is irrelevant to humanity, both morally and logically, we just can't know whether God exists or not, so why worry about it?

Please tell me if I've missed anything.
Psalms 53:1
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good."
 
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Hydra009

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UMP said:
Psalms 53:1
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good."
Maybe you should actually read his post before responding.

Challenger said:
Essentially a non-theist is someone who does not have faith in a personal God, in non-theist philosophy, God's existence or inexistence is irrelevant.
 
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Edward Vil - E for short

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The thing I like about that verse is that it essentially calls everyone who isn't a theist an evil idiot. I mean, who would want to be an evil idiot? Only an evil idiot would want to be an evil idiot. It's not a good tool for winning people to God, but it's very good for making God's followers feel better about themselves.
 
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UMP

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Edward Vil - E for short said:
The thing I like about that verse is that it essentially calls everyone who isn't a theist an evil idiot. I mean, who would want to be an evil idiot? Only an evil idiot would want to be an evil idiot. It's not a good tool for winning people to God, but it's very good for making God's followers feel better about themselves.
What it IS, is a fact.
Even the "devils" know this:

James 2:19
"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."
 
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UMP

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Edward Vil - E for short said:
No I won't because it's not true.
Romans 14:11
"For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

Phil 2:
[9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
[10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
[11] And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
 
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UMP

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Edward Vil - E for short said:
1 Corinthians 1:
[18] For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
[19] For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
[20] Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
[21] For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
[22] For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
[23] But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
[24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
 
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StainedClassKing

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Psalms 53:1
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good."

What I would like to know is how is this not trolling or flaming?

This is not an attempt to reach or impart a greater understanding of any kind and doesn't add to conversation in anyway at all. There is nothing productive about this post. It only serves the purpose of calling the OPer an evil fool.

So why is this post allowed to stand? Why aren't the mods removing it?
 
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UMP

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Stormy said:
LOL ^_^

Children! Put down that mouse!

Now go get Daddy and Mommy so we grown-ups can talk.

Barney is on! :clap:


To the OP:I will get back to you. I have to take the daycare kids outdoors. Talk to you later.
Quoting the word of God is childish?
Think about what you are saying?
However, dragging it on further, given the one word answers, would indeed be foolish.
 
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UMP

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Jeremy_the_Atheist said:
What I would like to know is how is this not trolling or flaming?

This is not an attempt to reach or impart a greater understanding of any kind and doesn't add to conversation in anyway at all. There is nothing productive about this post. It only serves the purpose of calling the OPer an evil fool.

So why is this post allowed to stand? Why aren't the mods removing it?
It's the word of God. The word of God is a sword. I'm trying to WAKE PEOPLE UP to the truth. You can call it trolling, I don't care.
 
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Annabel Lee

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Jeremy_the_Atheist said:
What I would like to know is how is this not trolling or flaming?

This is not an attempt to reach or impart a greater understanding of any kind and doesn't add to conversation in anyway at all. There is nothing productive about this post. It only serves the purpose of calling the OPer an evil fool.

So why is this post allowed to stand? Why aren't the mods removing it?
Hit the report button!

And yes, he is flaming. Unfortunately he is using scripture as a shield as he flames so he may get away with it.
It's the cowards way.
 
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Edward Vil - E for short

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UMP said:
Quoting the word of God is childish?
Think about what you are saying?
However, dragging it on further, given the one word answers, would indeed be foolish.
I thought we were playing Argument Clinic. What kind of rational discussion were you hoping to spurr? I disbelieve the bible.
 
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UMP

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Annabel Lee said:
Hit the report button!

And yes, he is flaming. Unfortunately he is using scripture as a shield as he flames so he may get away with it.
It's the cowards way.
The cowards way is quoting the Bible and standing behind it?? If so, I hope I'm a coward.
Someone starts a thread about Atheism and I simply quote a Bible verse which DIRECTLY answers about what God thinks on this subject and that's being a coward?
I'm sorry, but you are seriously disillusioned.
 
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