Non-Dual Christianity

baryogenesis

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Satan is merely a creation of God's, used as a tool for His purposes. Satan, nor any other creature, can try to compete with God for the title of "master," and certainly cannot share it.

Infinity cannot be added to. This is in the meaning of the word. How many Infinite things [The Alpha and Omega] can exist in the universe? One. Or it isn't infinite.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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How do you define nondual?

Good question as definitions can certainly vary. From a Christian perspective I think Bede Griffiths is a good source to start with.


"For Griffiths, advaita is a mystical intuition of being one with the divine reality; his experience of non-duality in his encounter with God is equivalent to the experience of the soul in its very centre, beyond images and concepts. Hindus and Buddhists may express this non-dual reality differently, but Griffiths believed that their experience of the non-duality of the divine is fundamentally the same. Christians have a lot to learn from Hinduism and Buddhism in their quest for the Absolute. At the same time, Christians also have a lot to offer to Eastern religions in terms of refinement and reinterpretation of the advaitic experience. This involves seeing the Hindu notion of advaita in the light of the Christian understanding of creation, the notion of the person and the incarnation of Jesus Christ. Rejecting the monism of pure advaita, which affirms the absolute identity between Brahman and the soul, Griffiths describes a Christian advaita characterized by intuitive knowledge, love and an affirmation of the reality of the world. He believed that individuals do not lose their identity, even in deep communion with God. Relationship with God does not abolish the individuality of the soul. The relationship cannot be one of total identity or complete absorption.

Griffiths writes:
For the Hindu and the Buddhist … in the ultimate state there is an absolute identity. Man realizes his identity with the absolute and realizes that this identity is eternal and unchangeable. In the Christian view man remains distinct from God. He is a creature of God, and his being raised to a participation in the divine life is an act of God’s grace, a gratuitous act of infinite love, by which God descends to man in order to raise him to share in his own life and knowledge and love. In this union man truly shares in the divine mode of knowledge, he knows himself in an identity with God, but he remains distinct in his being. It is an identity, or rather a communion, by knowledge and love, not an identity of being.

https://www.theway.org.uk/back/551Mong.pdf
 
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Tigger45

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For me non duality is a healthy practice as part of mindfulness by not continually projecting my biases on everything all the time. I just experience the moment without a lot of expended emotional energy.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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For me non duality is a healthy practice as part of mindfulness by not continually projecting my biases on everything all the time. I just experience the moment without a lot of expended emotional energy.
That sounds good.

I have been dealing with some unusual emotional energy lately. And somehow St John of The Cross's Dark Night of the Soul Came to mind. I am revisiting especially book 2 and trying to integrate his insights into a mindful practice.
 
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Tigger45

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That sounds good.

I have been dealing with some unusual emotional energy lately. And somehow St John of The Cross's Dark Night of the Soul Came to mind. I am revisiting especially book 2 and trying to integrate his insights into a mindful practice.
Sounds great! Let us know how it goes.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Thanks for your opinions.

How do you interpret:
John 17:20-23

I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
Oh wow, this is like everyone in the body of Christ share a bond so that we are all within each other, as "the body" - yet do not lose our status as a "person."

In the same way that The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all within each other as God - yet do not lose their status as a "person."

Would this description be dualistic or non-dualistic? How so?
 
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Gregory Thompson

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In my experience of the word duality in more recent years, (the opposite of dualism) usually means "I am you, and you are me" and in the sense of the divine, it would amount to saying "I am God"

Which definition are we using for this conversation?
 
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etaters

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<snip>
Nondualism is incompatible with independence and individuality.
<snip>
Many of the religious thinkers and philosophers of non-dualism maintained their independence and individuality while writing/teaching Advaita and still do, along with the countless other Householders who live normal lives while holding a full understanding of it. Not all wandered around royal gardens oblivious to the fact that the King just chopped off their arm for being in his garden.

Devout Christians, also, have developed Christ-consciousness within or otherwise resigned themselves to helping others before helping themselves, and they have not lost sight of who they are in this life on this Earth.

Christian or Hindu, surely it is possible to be one with God and still be John Smith.
 
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SkyWriting

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In my experience of the word duality in more recent years, (the opposite of dualism) usually means "I am you, and you are me" and in the sense of the divine, it would amount to saying "I am God" Which definition are we using for this conversation?

"I am he as you are he as you are me
And we are all together
See how they run like pigs from a gun
See how they fly
I'm crying
Sitting on a corn flake
Waiting for the van to come
Corporation T-shirt, stupid bloody Tuesday
Man you've been a naughty boy
You let your face grow long"
 
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zippy2006

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Many of the religious thinkers and philosophers of non-dualism maintained their independence and individuality while writing/teaching Advaita and still do, along with the countless other Householders who live normal lives while holding a full understanding of it. Not all wandered around royal gardens oblivious to the fact that the King just chopped off their arm for being in his garden.

Devout Christians, also, have developed Christ-consciousness within or otherwise resigned themselves to helping others before helping themselves, and they have not lost sight of who they are in this life on this Earth.

Christian or Hindu, surely it is possible to be one with God and still be John Smith.

If someone thinks there is an ontological distinction (duality) between themselves and God, then they are not non-dualists in the sense being discussed here.

If an Advaitist claimed that there was no duality while acting as if there was, then they were acting in a way that was inconsistent with their claims. They were being irrational. I will be the first to testify that humans are capable of irrationality. :)
 
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etaters

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If someone thinks there is an ontological distinction (duality) between themselves and God, then they are not non-dualists in the sense being discussed here.

If an Advaitist claimed that there was no duality while acting as if there was, then they were acting in a way that was inconsistent with their claims. They were being irrational. I will be the first to testify that humans are capable of irrationality. :)

You are not discussing non-dualists as Advaita Vedantists? Advaita Vedanta excludes no one and no thing, as that truly would be an inconsistency. As such Advaita welcomes all gods, including the Abrahamic God.

We can only point to try to explain Brahman, or give examples of what Brahman is not, as the undefinable cannot be defined by words. You can say inconsistencies exist—they exist to demonstrate to the seeker that God is not an objective thing. "I am that I am," is purposefully irrational grammar. To say that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are not the same yet are all God while not being parts of God is purposefully irrational.

Adi Shankara, Sri Ramakrishna, and Swami Vivekananda excluded no gods, and were even more devout in their worship than others whose paths were solely worship without the benefit of the realization that there is only one.

What you superficially see from the outside looking in as irrationality is actually the peak of rationality. To say that Advaitists must claim they themselves don't exist or that it won't hurt to hit their thumb with a hammer is an ignorant argument along the lines of equating the God of the Bible with the Easter Bunny—we reveal only our own ignorance and nothing of the teachings.

"No one shall ever see the kingdom of heaven—it is within"
 
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The Liturgist

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Anyone else lean this way?

My interest started about 1976 with my interest in meditation and feeling a sense of connection. Then I discovered Thomas Merton, Pierre Teilhard De Chardin and Bede Griffiths and realized that such a view is not necessarily incompatible with Christianity.


"In Eastern Orthodox Christianity, it’s carried principally in the tradition of hesychasm, a prayer with unflagging emphasis on “putting the mind in the heart.” In the Western tradition, Meister Eckhart, the Rhineland mystics, and, in our own times, Bernadette Roberts come immediately to mind. I also see it strongly in the 14th century classic The Cloud of Unknowing."

"Richard Rohr talks about nonduality being at the center of the Christian tradition, as articulated through the belief that Jesus was both fully human and fully divine."

Cynthia Bourgeault on Christian Nonduality | The Garrison Institute.

[the WWMC sub-forum is for liberal Christians and non-liberal Christian members are not allowed to debate in this forum.]

Indeed, there are great blessings to be found by tapping the experience of Eastern Christian monasticism. Now, hesychasm is basically a full time job, however, the main component of it, the Jesus Prayer, can be safely said by anyone in any situation. Another related practice is the Coptic Orthodox recitation of the canonical hours and the Psalter, contained in a book called the Agpeya.

In terms of prayer ropes, these are not necessary, but are a lot of fun. I particularly like the Lestovka, the leather or imitation leather prayer rope used by Russian Old Believers and Old Rite Orthodox. They feature many counters, several of which are intended for use in the Divine Liturgy, but which could also be used devotionally, or, you could just make up your own prayer rule. The best source for lestovkas is the Church of the Nativity in Erie, PA.

The Rosary, the closely related Prayer Rule of St. Seraphim of Sarov, and the Anglican Rosary are also really good devotions. I have a simple Rosary, and a leather Lestovka configured for the Prayer Rule of St. Seraphim (which is just a certain number of Ave Marias punctuated by a Pater Noster). I really wish I had an Anglican Rosary...
 
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zippy2006

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Adi Shankara, Sri Ramakrishna, and Swami Vivekananda excluded no gods...

This is a separate question. Whether someone excludes certain gods and whether they are a non-dualist are two very different things.
 
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The Liturgist

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Anyone else lean this way?

My interest started about 1976 with my interest in meditation and feeling a sense of connection. Then I discovered Thomas Merton, Pierre Teilhard De Chardin and Bede Griffiths and realized that such a view is not necessarily incompatible with Christianity.


"In Eastern Orthodox Christianity, it’s carried principally in the tradition of hesychasm, a prayer with unflagging emphasis on “putting the mind in the heart.” In the Western tradition, Meister Eckhart, the Rhineland mystics, and, in our own times, Bernadette Roberts come immediately to mind. I also see it strongly in the 14th century classic The Cloud of Unknowing."

"Richard Rohr talks about nonduality being at the center of the Christian tradition, as articulated through the belief that Jesus was both fully human and fully divine."

Cynthia Bourgeault on Christian Nonduality | The Garrison Institute.

[the WWMC sub-forum is for liberal Christians and non-liberal Christian members are not allowed to debate in this forum.]

Indeed, I strongly lean in that direction, although what Borgeault and Rohr refer to as non-duality, I am, in a Christological context, accustomed to referring to as Hypostatic Union, which is the ancient name for that doctrine. However, the use of the word nonduality to embrace both hypostatic union and Hesychasm is brilliant.

As a practical matter concerning Hesychasm, there is a thought that it can be dangerous if attempted on its own, without supervision by an accomplished Hesychast, but there is a lay-accessible practice, which is the continual recitation of the Jesus Prayer (which is ultimately what Hesychasts do, just with greater intensity and in a cenobitic monastic environment).

Four books come to mind which may interest you or anyone else that’s into nondual theology: the Philokalia, an anthology of texts concerning Hesychasm, prayer in general, mystical theology and monasticism, compiled by St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite and St. Macarius of Corinth in the mid 18th century, The Way of the Pilgrim, an early 19th century book about an anonymous Slavic Orthodox man who renounces the world to focus on saying the Jesus Prayer after being given a prayer rope, On The Prayer of Jesus, by the mid 19th century Russian Orthodox bishop St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, and finally The Orthodox Way, a book which chronicles all of the above, and which also quotes The Cloud of Unknowing and the works of Thomas Merton, Bede Griffiths and Meister Eckhart, and other important figures in mystical theology such as Soren Kierkegaard, by the liberal Eastern Orthodox bishop Metropolitan Kallistos Ware.

You may also find it interesting how Coptic Orthodox monks traditionally meditate, which is by memorizing a large portion of the Psalter, very nearly all of it, and reciting it throughout the day as part of the Divine Office*, the contemplative portion of which consists of twelve canonical hours and an additional hour, The Prayer of the Veil, which is said before bed by clergy and monastics. These prayers, which consist of most of the Psalter, a fixed Gospel lesson for every hour, a Litany, the Lord’s Prayer and a few other items, are contained in a book called the Agpeya, and stay the same throughout all of the year except Holy Week.

There are reports of comatose Coptic monks continuing to recite the Psalms on their lips unconsciously, perhaps due to “muscle memory,” or conditioned action in the cerebellum, or perhaps for more spiritual reasons.

*There are also more conventional liturgical portions of the Divine Office in the form of the Morning and Evening Raising of Incense, which are derived from the ancient Cathedral Office, and the Psalmody, which consists of portions for Vespers, Nocturnes and Matins, and is a collection of hymns similar to the Canons from Eastern Orthodox Matins and devotional services. Also, when the Agpeya is celebrated with a congregation, rather than recited individually or in a purely monastic setting, the Psalms (and portions of Psalm 119) of each hour are divided up among the attendees, with each person present typically asked to silently read two or three of them.
 
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The Liturgist

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Alright. There are versions of progressive Christianity that take this approach--Marcus Borg's panentheism comes to mind, but Jesus would not really be a unique case if he merely fully realized and understood his divine nature. Any number of Hindu gurus could be said to have reached the same state and not still be enmeshed in an egoistic delusion.

You're also going to have trouble getting around the fact that Jesus doesn't really teach nondualism. There are hints of having a divine understanding of his own mission (though even there, he distinguishes between himself and the Father in a way that would be very odd for a nondualist), but there's nowhere in his teachings where he's telling people that they have to just recognize their own divine nature and realize that they too are God. That's pure Hinduism.

And Hinduism is great. If you think nondualism is true, then Hinduism is really the closest thing you're going to get to a true religion, but I don't think you can import it back into Christianity without going full deconstructionist and making the texts say a bunch of stuff that they really don't.

Interestingly, Eastern Orthodoxy is commonly described as Panentheistic.
 
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The Liturgist

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Oh, fun fact: Bede Griffiths compiled the first translation of the Shimo, which is the Syriac Orthodox divine office (also used verbatim by the Syro Malankara Catholic Church, which his Ashram was a part of).
 
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