Non-Catholic's view of RC Catechism

[narnia59]

I do not need sacraments. You do not seem to understand the the true MYSTERY is God being able to do a work in each one of his children supernaturally without the assistance of 'aids'. Maybe he uses that for you, but not for me.

I have been been changed by God for a number of years now without the assistance of the Catholic Church, and God has done a good job so far. His enabling SUPERNATURAL GRACE has been totally SUFFICIENT for me.

If you need to go to mass, etc to get the Grace of God, go for it. I have been receiving it supernaturally for a long time now. The POWER of God is truly supernatural.

Yes, I read my Bible, go to church as lead, but these things in themselves are not doing the WORK IN ME, the power of God is. They all are a part of the work God is doing and has done, but the true changes in me have come from a supernaturally enabling power called GRACE.

Maybe not for you, but for me. That is why each of us have our own personal relationship with God, it is personal. God does not have to use some ONE cookie-cutter way with all of his children, who told you that lie?

God is so out the box, why do you people keep trying to keep him in one. You can't anyway, you just can't.

God works outside of the Catholic Church. He has children and true followers outside of the Catholic Church. He does not need the Catholic Church to accomplish a heart change, life-change and supernatural transformation in his children. He does this his own way and his own time in each of his children.

So if you were a Corinthian would you have told Paul you had no need of the mysteries of God that he was a steward of because you didn't need the assistance of his "aids"?

Of course it is the power of God doing the work in you, and not the 'aids' themselves. The nature of a sacrament is its an outward sign of an inward grace -- the power of God. Again, why one would want to snub these gifts, I am not sure.

The Catholic church would agree with you that God's grace is not bound up and limited to its visible confines. I do not doubt the working of God's grace within your life. I just can't understand not seeking it in all its various forms.

 

[narnia59]

Yeah, imagine that! Please tell me how does an INFANT have FAITH IN CHRIST?

God is not going to torment children because they did not get sprinkled of water on their head. This is pure deception, I can't believe people actually fall for this.

So children have no need of a Savior at all then.

 

[ANM29]

So if you were a Corinthian would you have told Paul you had no need of the mysteries of God that he was a steward of because you didn't need the assistance of his "aids"?

Of course it is the power of God doing the work in you, and not the 'aids' themselves. The nature of a sacrament is its an outward sign of an inward grace -- the power of God. Again, why one would want to snub these gifts, I am not sure.

The Catholic church would agree with you that God's grace is not bound up and limited to its visible confines. I do not doubt the working of God's grace within your life. I just can't understand not seeking it in all its various forms.

I personally do not agree with the interpretation of what the Catholic Church says Paul meant in most cases, so...I will leave that alone for now.

That is good to know that you know that God is not bound to, nor only does he only live at a Catholic Church altar.

God does not ONLY work through the 'forms' that work for you. God is out the box, once again, we serve a truly BIG GOD. I really feel sad that you all actually limit him to only do his greatest works at an altar or inside of a building.

Too much 'building' worship, when in fact WE are the temple of God, not a building made by hands.

I love these versus of scripture. For some reason though, Man is still stuck on these 'buildings' and can't see they are the TEMPLE..The Kingdom of God dwells within.

Acts 17:22-31


22Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious.


23For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.
http://bible.cc/acts/17-24.htm
24“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.


25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.

http://bible.cc/acts/17-26.htm
26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. http://bible.cc/acts/17-27.htm
http://bible.cc/acts/17-27.htm
27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

http://bible.cc/acts/17-28.htm
28‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’
http://bible.cc/acts/17-29.htm
29“Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man’s design and skill. http://bible.cc/acts/17-30.htm
http://bible.cc/acts/17-30.htm
30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.


31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”

 

[ANM29]

So children have no need of a Savior at all then.

Christ has already died for them, it is finished. Jesus is the Savior of the entire world, especially of those that believe.

Tell me how does an infant have faith in Christ? And why do they NEED to be baptized? To escape eternal torment?

 

[winsome]

I do not need sacraments. You do not seem to understand the the true MYSTERY is God being able to do a work in each one of his children supernaturally without the assistance of 'aids'. Maybe he uses that for you, but not for me.

I have been been changed by God for a number of years now without the assistance of the Catholic Church, and God has done a good job so far. His enabling SUPERNATURAL GRACE has been totally SUFFICIENT for me.

If you need to go to mass, etc to get the Grace of God, go for it. I have been receiving it supernaturally for a long time now. The POWER of God is truly supernatural.

Yes, I read my Bible, go to church as lead, but these things in themselves are not doing the WORK IN ME, the power of God is. They all are a part of the work God is doing and has done, but the true changes in me have come from a supernaturally enabling power called GRACE.

Maybe not for you, but for me. That is why each of us have our own personal relationship with God, it is personal. God does not have to use some ONE cookie-cutter way with all of his children, who told you that lie?

God is so out the box, why do you people keep trying to keep him in one. You can't anyway, you just can't.

God works outside of the Catholic Church. He has children and true followers outside of the Catholic Church. He does not need the Catholic Church to accomplish a heart change, life-change and supernatural transformation in his children. He does this his own way and his own time in each of his children.

This is couch potato Christianity. “I have nothing to do but lie here and Christ will do it all.”

Not for the couch potato to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Phil 2:12)

Not for the couch potato to run the race (1Cor 9:24-27)

Not for the couch potato to be rich in good works (1Tim 6:18) or

Nor are the couch potato which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.(Ti 3:8)

But the couch potato is one whose end shall be according to their works (2Cor 11:15)

Try reading Mt 25:31-46 for the fate of those who think faith is enough ands no effort is required by them.


As to grace

Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand (Rom 5:1-2)

We have gained access to grace.

See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God (Heb 12:15)

We have to obtain grace.

As we work together with him, we urge you also not to accept the grace of God in vain. (2Cor 6:1)

We have to accept grace.

Yup, somethings we have to do.

 

[ANM29]

This is couch potato Christianity. “I have nothing to do but lie here and Christ will do it all.”

Not for the couch potato to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Phil 2:12)

Not for the couch potato to run the race (1Cor 9:24-27)

Not for the couch potato to be rich in good works (1Tim 6:18) or

Nor are the couch potato which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.(Ti 3:8)

But the couch potato is one whose end shall be according to their works (2Cor 11:15)

Try reading Mt 25:31-46 for the fate of those who think faith is enough ands no effort is required by them.


As to grace

Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand (Rom 5:1-2)

We have gained access to grace.

See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God (Heb 12:15)

We have to obtain grace.

As we work together with him, we urge you also not to accept the grace of God in vain. (2Cor 6:1)

We have to accept grace.

Yup, somethings we have to do.

No comment...You know nothing about my life and the work God is doing and has done in me.

I am not even going to comment on this. I have NOTHING to prove to you. You do what works for you and I will continue to let God work in my life as he desires.

Cookie-cutter Christians, Keep working for your salvation you will hopefully obtain it one day.

 

[narnia59]

I personally do not agree with the interpretation of what the Catholic Church says Paul meant in most cases, so...I will leave that alone for now.

That is good to know that you know that God is not bound to, nor only does he only live at a Catholic Church altar.

God does not ONLY work through the 'forms' that work for you. God is out the box, once again, we serve a truly BIG GOD. I really feel sad that you all actually limit him to only do his greatest works at an altar or inside of a building.

Too much 'building' worship, when in fact WE are the temple of God, not a building made by hands.

I love these versus of scripture. For some reason though, Man is still stuck on these 'buildings' and can't see they are the TEMPLE..The Kingdom of God dwells within.

Acts 17:22-31


22Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious.


23For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.

24“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.


25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.


26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.

27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.


28‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’

29“Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man’s design and skill.

30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.


31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”

The first Christians knew the temple is Christ. That did not prevent them from going to the temple to pray. Not the pagan temples as you've described here however. Two different things.

I never said that God worked only through the "forms" that work for me. You say that I limit myself to only certain "forms" -- I partake of each and every form that I'm aware of, for they are all gifts of God. I think you have that backwards -- you are who has decided that certain "forms" aren't meant for you and have limited yourself.

 

[ANM29]

The first Christians knew the temple is Christ. That did not prevent them from going to the temple to pray. Not the pagan temples as you've described here however. Two different things.

I never said that God worked only through the "forms" that work for me. You say that I limit myself to only certain "forms" -- I partake of each and every form that I'm aware of, for they are all gifts of God. I think you have that backwards -- you are who has decided that certain "forms" aren't meant for you and have limited yourself.

Yes, you said exactly that I am 'missing' out on God because I do not participate and accept ALL the forms of sacraments at the Catholic Church. I seriously doubt it, I seriously doubt I am missing out on anything. I have no desire to be a part of that institution, not where God wants me.

If it works for you, then keep working it I guess. God has many ways of working through his people.

The problem is believing these temples made by man, anyway.

 

[narnia59]

Christ has already died for them, it is finished. Jesus is the Savior of the entire world, especially of those that believe.

Tell me how does an infant have faith in Christ? And why do they NEED to be baptized? To escape eternal torment?

So are you a universal salvationist? All will be saved?

An infant does not have faith in Christ. But people only come to faith in Christ through grace. Baptism brings that child into Christ and gives access to grace so they may indeed respond with faith. Obviously this is not a 'work' of the person, for it is something they are not capable of doing. It is the work of God. The free gift of grace, remember?

 

[ANM29]

So are you a universal salvationist? All will be saved?

An infant does not have faith in Christ. But people only come to faith in Christ through grace. Baptism brings that child into Christ and gives access to grace so they may indeed respond with faith. Obviously this is not a 'work' of the person, for it is something they are not capable of doing. It is the work of God. The free gift of grace, remember?

Yes, I believe in Universal Salvation. Before I ever believed that, I had enough common sense to know that God is not going to burn children forever.

The Grace of God is already poured out on these helpless children WITHOUT Baptism. Another man-made doctrine...

 

[narnia59]

Yes, you said exactly that I am 'missing' out on God because I do not participate and accept ALL the forms of sacraments at the Catholic Church. I seriously doubt it, I seriously doubt I am missing out on anything. I have no desire to be a part of that institution, not where God wants me.

If it works for you, then keep working it I guess. God has many ways of working through his people.

The problem is believing these temples made by man, anyway.

Where did I say you were missing out on God? You'll have to point that out.

I did say grace is administered in many forms (as Scripture says), and you have chosen to limit which forms you receive. As for me, I make no bones about the fact I need all the help I can get.

 

[narnia59]

Yes, I believe in Universal Salvation. Before I ever believed that, I had enough common sense to know that God is not going to burn children forever.

The Grace of God is already poured out on these helpless children WITHOUT Baptism. Another man-made doctrine...

So no need for personal faith at all then to be saved?

 

[ANM29]

Where did I say you were missing out on God? You'll have to point that out.

I did say grace is administered in many forms (as Scripture says), and you have chosen to limit which forms you receive. As for me, I make no bones about the fact I need all the help I can get.

You said I am missing out on something. You said it is a 'mystery' why I would not want to have access to these sacraments.

I need all the help I can get, and I get all the help I need. His Grace is sufficient for me without the assistance of sacraments.

 

[ANM29]

So no need for personal faith at all then to be saved?

Who said that? This is another topic I do not want to discuss in this thread, we can discuss it elsewhere. A baby can't have personal faith..

When it comes to babies, NO, they can not have faith in the first place.

They are covered automatically by the Grace of God--LOVE. To say these children will burn is total deceit and a lie from the pit.

 

[winsome]

You said I am missing out on something. You said it is a 'mystery' why I would not want to have access to these sacraments.

I need all the help I can get, and I get all the help I need. His Grace is sufficient for me without the assistance of sacraments.

Here is something yopu are missing:

Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. (Jn 6:53)

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. (Jn 6:56)

 

[ANM29]

I am well aware of communion and baptism, just not your views on it.

 

[MamaZ]

Here is something yopu are missing:

Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. (Jn 6:53)

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. (Jn 6:56)

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and of truth.

 

[MamaZ]

So if we eat the word of God are we not eating the flesh of Christ?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I am well aware of communion and baptism, just not your views on it.

I think most Protestants [including ex-RCs like myself ] are also aware of those

 

[narnia59]

Who said that? This is another topic I do not want to discuss in this thread, we can discuss it elsewhere. A baby can't have personal faith..

When it comes to babies, NO, they can not have faith in the first place.

They are covered automatically by the Grace of God--LOVE. To say these children will burn is total deceit and a lie from the pit.

If you are a universal salvationist then that excludes faith in Christ as being necessary for salvation does it not?

I never said by default children who are not baptized will burn in hell. The Catholic church does not teach that, and never has.