Non-Catholic's view of RC Catechism

[narnia59]

This more than I ever knew about any RC catechism or any other publication. Since this just said that man can over rule G-d, I'll go be sick now.

Where does it say that?

 

[narnia59]

What in the world did Jesus come to earth for, die for and what was he raised for?

To save us from sin, to bring us back into right relationship with God, to share his divine sonship and to enable us by His spirit to be and do that which we were created to be and do.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Where does that state that man can overrule God? There is no such notion in Catholic theology. The Magisterium is seen as proclaiming the truth of God's revelation. It's not going to contradict anything in the (Catholic interpretation of) the Bible or history.



The Catholic understanding of salvation and grace is indeed a bit different than the Protestant version. However, the sacraments are viewed as God acting through the Church.

Works would be us "pulling" grace from the sacraments. The theology is that God "pushes" grace to us through the sacraments. Hence, it is not works-based. Make no mistake though, the Catholic Church does not deemphasize works like some Protestant denominations seem to do. Remember James 2:24.

"The Catholic understanding of salvation and grace is indeed a bit different than the Protestant version." is one of the greatest understatements of all time. Apart from works in the Catholic Church there can be no salvation. Works may be motivated by faith, but faith is unnecessary for salvation in the Catholic Church as long as the works are done. Thus, an unbelieving infant will be saved because it has water sprinkled on its head as a chap intones the correct baptismal formula, but an unbelieving infant who does not undergo this rite will be lost.

The Protestant view is that there is no salvation apart from God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

The Catholic Church emphasizes works to the exclusion of faith.

 

[ANM29]

To save us from sin, to bring us back into right relationship with God, to share his divine sonship and to enable us by His spirit to be and do that which we were created to be and do.

AMEN!!! We actually agree on something..

 

[Dark_Lite]

"The Catholic understanding of salvation and grace is indeed a bit different than the Protestant version." is one of the greatest understatements of all time. Apart from works in the Catholic Church there can be no salvation. Works may be motivated by faith, but faith is unnecessary for salvation in the Catholic Church as long as the works are done. Thus, an unbelieving infant will be saved because it has water sprinkled on its head as a chap intones the correct baptismal formula, but an unbelieving infant who does not undergo this rite will be lost.

The Protestant view is that there is no salvation apart from God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

The Catholic Church emphasizes works to the exclusion of faith.

As usual, your understanding of Catholic theology is woefully incomplete!

Here are some CCC paragraphs for your perusal:

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"43

162 Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift, as St. Paul indicated to St. Timothy: "Wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith."44 To live, grow and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith;45 it must be "working through charity," abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church.46

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

To save us from sin, to bring us back into right relationship with God, to share his divine sonship and to enable us by His spirit to be and do that which we were created to be and do.

John 19:30 When then the Jesus had received/got the vinegar, He said "it has been finished!".
And reclining the head He gives-up the spirit.

Reve 11:18 And the nations are wrought and came the wrath of Thee, and the time of the dead to be judged and to give the wages to the bond-servants of Thee, the prophets and to the saints, and to the ones fearing the name of Thee, the little and the great and to blight/dia-fqeirai <1311> (5658) the ones blighting/dia-fqeirontaV <1311> (5723) the Land..
[Genesis 6:11-13]

 

[ANM29]

Where does that state that man can overrule God? There is no such notion in Catholic theology. The Magisterium is seen as proclaiming the truth of God's revelation. It's not going to contradict anything in the (Catholic interpretation of) the Bible or history.



The Catholic understanding of salvation and grace is indeed a bit different than the Protestant version. However, the sacraments are viewed as God acting through the Church.

Works would be us "pulling" grace from the sacraments. The theology is that God "pushes" grace to us through the sacraments. Hence, it is not works-based. Make no mistake though, the Catholic Church does not deemphasize works like some Protestant denominations seem to do. Remember James 2:24.

Pulling "Grace" from sacraments? This is the error. God gives us Grace that you can't earn or pull or work for. You do no have to think you are 'pulling' it from God by your works, it is a free gift. Grace can't be earned, it is given out of God's love for us because we can't pay for our sins. He already paid for them, we believe that by faith.

It is totally work-based. Why do you feel the need to PULL Grace through doing something ( works) versus it being a free gift that you can't pay for or work for?

We all do works, but the difference is that my works naturally come from my love of my God, not out of needing approval or to get Grace/salvation.

It is a matter of why you do what you do.

 

[bbbbbbb]

As usual, your understanding of Catholic theology is woefully incomplete!

Here are some CCC paragraphs for your perusal:

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"43

162 Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift, as St. Paul indicated to St. Timothy: "Wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith."44 To live, grow and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith;45 it must be "working through charity," abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church.46

Thank you for the excellent example for contradictory theology from the Catholic Catechism. Please show me from the Catechism where babies have faith and that their faith will save them. Also show me how they, through faith, enter into the sacrament of baptism and thus are saved through baptism.

Thank you.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It is totally work-based. Why do you feel the need to PULL Grace through doing something ( works) versus it being a free gift that you can't pay for or work for?

We all do works, but the difference is that my works naturally come from my love of my God, not out of needing approval or to get Grace/salvation.

It is a matter of why you do what you do.

Each of the 7 letters to the Messengers of the 7 Churches in the jewish/hebrew book of Revelation mentions "works".

I found that kind of interesting

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series Part 1

Reve 2:2 I am aware of the works of thee
Reve 2:9 I am aware of thee the works...
Reve 2:13 I am aware of the works of thee.....
Reve 2:19 I am aware of thee the works......
Reve 3:1........I am aware of thee the works........
Reve 3:8 I am aware of thee the works........
Reve 3:15 I am aware of thee the works......

Strong's Number G2041 matches the Greek &#7956;&#961;&#947;&#959;&#957; (ergon), which occurs 176 times in 161 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

2041. ergon er'-gon from a primary (but obsolete) ergo (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication, an act:--deed, doing, labour, work.

 

[ANM29]

Each of the 7 letters to the Messengers of the 7 Churches in the jewish/hebrew book of Revelation mentions "works".

I found that kind of interesting

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series Part 1

Reve 2:2 I am aware of the works of thee
Reve 2:9 I am aware of thee the works...
Reve 2:13 I am aware of the works of thee.....
Reve 2:19 I am aware of thee the works......
Reve 3:1........I am aware of thee the works........
Reve 3:8 I am aware of thee the works........
Reve 3:15 I am aware of thee the works......

Strong's Number G2041 matches the Greek &#7956;&#961;&#947;&#959;&#957; (ergon), which occurs 176 times in 161 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

2041. ergon er'-gon from a primary (but obsolete) ergo (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication, an act:--deed, doing, labour, work.

Good point! The one church that always stands out to me is the Church of Laodicea.

God said he saw all of their works, BUT....

 

[narnia59]

Originally Posted by narnia59

To save us from sin, to bring us back into right relationship with God, to share his divine sonship and to enable us by His spirit to be and do that which we were created to be and do.
​

AMEN!!! We actually agree on something..

At least in part.

Tell me, what do you believe is the consequence if you do not do the works you have now been enabled to do.

 

[narnia59]

Pulling "Grace" from sacraments? This is the error. God gives us Grace that you can't earn or pull or work for. You do no have to think you are 'pulling' it from God by your works, it is a free gift. Grace can't be earned, it is given out of God's love for us because we can't pay for our sins. He already paid for them, we believe that by faith.

It is totally work-based. Why do you feel the need to PULL Grace through doing something ( works) versus it being a free gift that you can't pay for or work for?

We all do works, but the difference is that my works naturally come from my love of my God, not out of needing approval or to get Grace/salvation.

It is a matter of why you do what you do.

Do you believe a person can grow in grace? If so, by what means?

 

[Dark_Lite]

Pulling "Grace" from sacraments? This is the error. God gives us Grace that you can't earn or pull or work for. You do no have to think you are 'pulling' it from God by your works, it is a free gift. Grace can't be earned, it is given out of God's love for us because we can't pay for our sins. He already paid for them, we believe that by faith.

It is totally work-based. Why do you feel the need to PULL Grace through doing something ( works) versus it being a free gift that you can't pay for or work for?

We all do works, but the difference is that my works naturally come from my love of my God, not out of needing approval or to get Grace/salvation.

It is a matter of why you do what you do.

Um, did your eyes just jump to the word "pull" and completely disregard the rest of my post?

Read my post again very carefully.

 

[ANM29]

Originally Posted by narnia59

To save us from sin, to bring us back into right relationship with God, to share his divine sonship and to enable us by His spirit to be and do that which we were created to be and do.
​

At least in part.

Tell me, what do you believe is the consequence if you do not do the works you have now been enabled to do.

Yeah, at least in part.

Be a bit more specific, I want to answer this correctly. Give me an example of these 'works' you speak of.

 

[ANM29]

Um, did your eyes just jump to the word "pull" and completely disregard the rest of my post?

Read my post again very carefully.

Ok, I just did. Still, I do not see how God pushes grace through sacraments, still all works based.

The Grace of God came through his Son, at least for 'me'.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Good point! The one church that always stands out to me is the Church of Laodicea.

God said he saw all of their works, BUT....

I would hate to be the assembly at "Thyatira"

Reve 2:20 But I am having against of thee [*few].
That thou suffer the woman Jezebel, the one saying herself Prophetess, and she is teaching and she is deceiving the of-My bond-servants to prostitue and to be eating idol-sacrifices.
Reve 2:23 And the offspring of her I shall be killing in death.
And shall be knowing all the Outcalleds that I AM the One *searching reins and hearts, and I shall be giving to ye to each according to the works of ye.

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series

The church in Thyatira has a longer message delivered to it from Jesus Christ than any of the seven churches............

 

[ANM29]

I would hate to be the assembly at "Thyatira"

Reve 2:20 But I am having against of thee [*few].
That thou suffer the woman Jezebel, the one saying herself Prophetess, and she is teaching and she is deceiving the of-My bond-servants to prostitue and to be eating idol-sacrifices.
Reve 2:23 And the offspring of her I shall be killing in death.
And shall be knowing all the Outcalleds that I AM the One *searching reins and hearts, and I shall be giving to ye to each according to the works of ye.

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series

The church in Thyatira has a longer message delivered to it from Jesus Christ than any of the seven churches............

Yep, same here. They did get a LONG one.. I can look at all these churches and see how all of God's people today can fit into one of these..

 

[narnia59]

Yeah, at least in part.

Be a bit more specific, I want to answer this correctly. Give me an example of these 'works' you speak of.

Those works St. Paul would refer to "faith expressing itself in love" and thereby teaches St. James does that "[For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead." Or as St. Paul says "For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life". Or as in love being the fulfillment of the law of Christ. Those works St. James refers to fulfilling the 'royal law'. Works he describes as love towards others. The same type of works that Christ identifies in Matthew 25 as the criteria he will use to separate the sheep from the goats at the end of time.

What happens if a believer is enabled by grace to now live this life and do these works, but fails to do so?

 

[narnia59]

Ok, I just did. Still, I do not see how God pushes grace through sacraments, still all works based.

The Grace of God came through his Son, at least for 'me'.

How is it that grace, as Scripture says, is administered in its various forms then?

And the grace of the sacraments is always through the Son.

 

[ANM29]

Those works St. Paul would refer to "faith expressing itself in love" and thereby teaches St. James does that "[For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead." Or as St. Paul says "For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life". Or as in love being the fulfillment of the law of Christ. Those works St. James refers to fulfilling the 'royal law'. Works he describes as love towards others. The same type of works that Christ identifies in Matthew 25 as the criteria he will use to separate the sheep from the goats at the end of time.

What happens if a believer is enabled by grace to now live this life and do these works, but fails to do so?

Ok, thanks for clearing that up. I kind of figured you were going there, just wanted to be sure.

I believe that if you are truly a follower of Christ, believer of the Lord and have the Holy Spirit at work in you, you can't help but OBEY God. This new heart of yours ( born-again Spirit, I know this is something you all do not believe in, but Jesus said it) desires to please God and will do works naturally.

So, I do not believe you can truly be walking with God and fail to do works. It is just a matter of why you do these works and if they flow from you out of a heart of Love of God or fear of going to hell or whatever other reason people feel the need to WORK for their salvation.

You either are serving ( working) for God out of LOVE or FEAR. I mean the 'bad' fear, not the 'fear' of REVERENCE.

So, consequences. There are no consequences because a true follower of God will do good works naturally and as they are lead of the Holy Spirit.