Noah's Ark

[AV1611VET]

Once again, what was previously described with the ocean floor rising as much would be required withing the time span of the flood, the amount of energy needed to do that would put the Earth in a molten state which would still be in existence today and thousands of years to come.

Do you realize that motors would burn up if they didn't have cooling systems to remove the heat?

These cooling systems are designed and built into the motor to keep it from overheating.

Do you think God, in His foreknowledge, did the same thing?

He could ... by way of example ... have an angel standing by to absorb any heat that is generated.

Then said angel could simply fly out into space and dissipate it.

Here's another idea:

God could simply tell Mother Nature, "When I do this, and you start to get hot, don't even go there. Don't even think it. Keep your cool. I have spoken."

Or here's another idea ...

Or another ...

Or another ...

Get the picture now?

God did it.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

You appear to have no clue as to what flowing water does. And you want to add and take away five vertical miles of water in less than a year.

I covered that. Five miles of water was not needed to drown every living thing. Nothing that 'creeps' can survive long above the tree line.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Once again, what was previously described with the ocean floor rising as much would be required withing the time span of the flood, the amount of energy needed to do that would put the Earth in a molten state which would still be in existence today and thousands of years to come.

The moon's gravitational pull would help. Bring it nearer and all that heat and energy isn't needed.

There is actually precedence for God using the moon as the moon represents darkness/rebellion/evil. What more appropriate mechanism to aid in destroying wicked mankind.

In addition to 'lifting' the waters the moon's pull actually lifts the sea beds thus changing the shape of the earth. I believe it is the lifting of the sea beds ('breaking up' the fountains of the great deep) that caused the flood. Any credible geologist will affirm that the earth's crust, and especially the sea beds, is very flexible, and can flex greatly without leaving any evidence if done over a wide area........as they have twice a day for millennia.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Even if there was "only" over the hills (whatever that would mean) there still isnt enough water. And people have live on the mountains for a very long time anyway so your argument is very hollow.

In Noah's day there was little need for people live at high elevations. There were more than enough fertile valleys available to all.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I covered that. Five miles of water was not needed to drown every living thing. Nothing that 'creeps' can survive long above the tree line.

The tree line is a lot higher than a mere 5180 feet in altitude. And you still find plenty of life above the tree line. You are still requiring ridiculous amounts of water that would have left a mark.

Also the "tree line" would no longer exist as water rose. Think about it.

 

[Obliquinaut]

Only if you get to define how the flood acted. If all flood conditions were viewed in the light of the fact that the ark survived the flood it would paint a much different picture than is generally supposed.

If you change how "Floods" work then you are denying the science. You may not know it but geologists actually know a LOT about what flood deposits look like. And a world-wide flood would be AMAZINGLY interesting and stand out like a giant sore thumb.

If you wish to resort to "it's a MIRACLE and it results in a giant flood that looks exactly like a non-world-wide flood and looks, in fact, like NO SUCH FLOOD existed!" then you have made an unfalsifiable claim.

This is why it is imperative that you understand even modest amounts of sedimentology and stratigraphy before you opt to upset this apple cart.

 

[bhsmte]

If you change how "Floods" work then you are denying the science. You may not know it but geologists actually know a LOT about what flood deposits look like. And a world-wide flood would be AMAZINGLY interesting and stand out like a giant sore thumb.

If you wish to resort to "it's a MIRACLE and it results in a giant flood that looks exactly like a non-world-wide flood and looks, in fact, like NO SUCH FLOOD existed!" then you have made an unfalsifiable claim.

This is why it is imperative that you understand even modest amounts of sedimentology and stratigraphy before you opt to upset this apple cart.

Some folks, have to deny the well evidenced science, or their story blows up.

 

[Obliquinaut]

Why was a heavy rain needed? The rain didn't cause the flood, therefore it had another purpose.

You cannot flood the entire earth up to the highest mountains in 40 days (or even a year, if you take the alternate reading on the phrase "40 days") without it being heavy.

AND here's where so much of your hypothesis breaks down: even if it were but a gentle rain for 365 days which then abated that would be insufficient time to collect hundreds and hundreds of feet of depth of shale made up of clay-sized particles (many of which were actual clay minerals). They wouldn't settle out that fast.

Sorry, but you'll have to throw in a few more miracles here to overcome basic hydrodynamics.

 

[Obliquinaut]

Some folks, have to deny the well evidenced science, or their story blows up.

And I would be A-OK with it if they would just say: "God did a super-miracle here and He, in his Wisdom, made it look like just the opposite happened." (Of course then they'd have to explain why God would wish to HIDE evidence or make something look other than the true nature of what it is, but that is in the realm of theology.)

 

[Obliquinaut]

A flood doesn't need to cover all the mountaintops to be global in reach.

It had to be higher than Mt. Ararat, correct? That appears to be about 16,000'

 

[bhsmte]

And I would be A-OK with it if they would just say: "God did a super-miracle here and He, in his Wisdom, made it look like just the opposite happened." (Of course then they'd have to explain why God would wish to HIDE evidence or make something look other than the true nature of what it is, but that is in the realm of theology.)

Agree. If they just said, I believe this on faith and understand the science doesn't back my belief, I would go on my merry way. But, when they have to claim the science is wrong, you know they are in serious scramble mode.

 

[Obliquinaut]

Agree. If they just said, I believe this on faith and understand the science doesn't back my belief, I would go on my merry way. But, when they have to claim the science is wrong, you know they are in serious scramble mode.

Yup. And the hard part is reading what they think the science should be. It's almost as if they think geology has no actual work behind and that whatever one imagines to be the case with all the jumbly rocks must mean that anyone's wild guess is as good as anyone else's.

It is as if they are telling the world's professional geologists "Hey! Anyone can do that even without any sort of training or schooling!"

Gah!

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The tree line is a lot higher than a mere 5180 feet in altitude. And you still find plenty of life above the tree line. You are still requiring ridiculous amounts of water that would have left a mark.

Also the "tree line" would no longer exist as water rose. Think about it.

The point is that the flood killed everything God intended to kill regardless of elevation.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

It had to be higher than Mt. Ararat, correct? That appears to be about 16,000'

Why do you think the flood lasted nearly a year? A flood covering everything would only need a few weeks at most to kill everyone. It would take much longer however if the flood was less deep. The flood didn't have to drown everyone in order to kill them. Some may have made it higher ground, where they would eventually starve to death. There is a reasonable explanation for every aspect of the story as written.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

You cannot flood the entire earth up to the highest mountains in 40 days (or even a year, if you take the alternate reading on the phrase "40 days") without it being heavy.

AND here's where so much of your hypothesis breaks down: even if it were but a gentle rain for 365 days which then abated that would be insufficient time to collect hundreds and hundreds of feet of depth of shale made up of clay-sized particles (many of which were actual clay minerals). They wouldn't settle out that fast.

Sorry, but you'll have to throw in a few more miracles here to overcome basic hydrodynamics.

You are still mistaking the actual flood with the general perception of what that flood would look like. Apples and oranges.

The rain didn't add much to the floodwater, and ran off into the seas. It was the sea water that flooded the land. Read the story; the windows of heaven were opened (rainfall), and, the fountains of the great deep (the seas) were broken up (the flood). Two separate events.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The point is that the flood killed everything God intended to kill regardless of elevation.

How? Your story keeps changing.

And I see that you keep avoiding the biological questions that you can't answer.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The rain didn't add much to the floodwater. The seas covered the land. Rainwater runs off into the sea.

The seas tend to stay where they are.

There is this little thing you may have heard of, it is called "gravity".

 

[OldWiseGuy]

How? Your story keeps changing.

And I see that you keep avoiding the biological questions that you can't answer.

Ruin/restoration answers your questions (the geologic record plainly attests to this phenomenon). Recall that my base position is that everything is supernatural, everything. That God uses his creation to accomplish his purpose is why I speculate about how he might have done it using or interfering with the very laws he created.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The seas tend to stay where they are.

There is this little thing you may have heard of, it is called "gravity".

What about the tides? Twice daily they defy the laws of gravity?

 

[Obliquinaut]

You are still mistaking the actual flood with the general perception of what that flood would look like. Apples and oranges.

How deep was the flood such that upon the ending Noah's Ark came to rest on the Top of Mt. Ararat?

The rain didn't add much to the floodwater, and ran off into the seas. It was the sea water that flooded the land.

Did the sea water sit still on the land for thousands and thousands and thousands of years? Remember you have to collect hundreds of feet of fine grained sediment in places...stuff that won't settle out for a long period of time.

Read the story; the windows of heaven were opened (rainfall), and, the fountains of the great deep (the seas) were broken up (the flood). Two separate events.

What are these "Fountains of the Deep" to which you refer? Can you show me some details from GEOLOGY about these? (Or do you mean just plain springs?)