Noah's Ark

[AV1611VET]

Don't worry, I'm certain you have an exegesis that will get God off the hook.

God works in mysterious ways, doesn't He?

 

[Obliquinaut]

God works in mysterious ways, doesn't He?

Not so much. The human ability to justify our beliefs is far more mysterious.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Actually you were. You responded to Obliquinaut.

By the way, studying the Bible "honestly" would mean NOT assuming that it is true when one began. Also it would mean NOT assuming that it is false. Sadly for you if one does this one finds all sorts of fallacies in the Bible.

God hasn't directed my study to these 'fallacies' but to knowledge that edifies me.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

And how do you determine when someone is studying the bible honestly? Would it happen to be, when they agree with you?

I don't judge what others get from their study. And if they never come to the same conclusions I do it's ok with me. Much of the understanding of scripture comes from experiencing it over time. The older you are the more experience you have, and thus understanding.....if you were paying attention in the first place.

 

[bhsmte]

I don't judge what others get from their study. And if they never come to the same conclusions I do it's ok with me. Much of the understanding of scripture comes from experiencing it over time. The older you are the more experience you have, and thus understanding.....if you were paying attention in the first place.

In other words, folks can honestly study scripture and reach completely different conclusions than you.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

In other words, folks can honestly study scripture and reach completely different conclusions than you.

Absolutely.

 

[KWCrazy]

And I'm also saying (out loud) that such a God that would command genocide is not a God worthy of worship. He is a God worthy of abject terror and fear.

You should fear Him.
The wages of sin are death. You're a sinner and you're going to die.
All humans have an immortal soul. You are going to live forever somewhere. If you remove yourself from the Lord in this life, you will be permanently removed in the next.
You don't understand the Bible because you have no faith, and your self righteous acclamation over what is good and evil doesn't impress us.
The Amalekites were human predators outside of God's grace. However, Christ had not come yet and the world was under the original covenant. While not suitable for Heaven, the Amalekites did not go to Hell. They just died.

You, however, have a choice. You have an offer of salvation. If you reject it, then you go where your sinful, unforgiven nature takes you. Christians have the same sinful nature but we have a personal savior and you do not. If you died today, do you think you could convince God, who you defame, to give you another chance?

Good luck.

 

[Obliquinaut]

You should fear Him.

I DO fear the God concept! I feared that even though I was a believer I wasn't doing it correctly enough and since I knew that I was born of sin and fallen creature undeserving of salvation that, indeed, I must FEEL God's presence, I must TRULY AND WHOLLY ACCEPT Him to gain salvation.

Yet I simply couldn't "feel" His presence. I tried and tried and prayed and prayed.

I knew I couldn't "earn" salvation, that isn't how it works in Christianity, but I was pretty sure that I needed to truly LOVE God and truly loving something I didn't really "feel" felt...fake to me.

All humans have an immortal soul. You are going to live forever somewhere.

I'd ask "how do you know?" but I know that would be futile. I suppose it's something I'm just supposed to accept because KWCrazy tells me so.

If you remove yourself from the Lord in this life, you will be permanently removed in the next.

I didn't ask to be born, and I don't ask for eternal life. I don't need eternity. In fact, I really don't want eternity. I am a simple man with simple requirements. I'm as vain as the next person and wouldn't mind if I was world famous throughout time, but that's also unrealistic.

You don't understand the Bible because you have no faith, and your self righteous acclamation over what is good and evil doesn't impress us.

And again we are told I'm doing it "wrong". Oh well. Too bad. My years and years and years of agonizing effort to do it right were insufficient.

And how do we know I did it wrong? Because I came to a different conclusion than KWCrazy. QED.

The Amalekites were human predators outside of God's grace.

Even the infants? They must have been truly evil monsters! Are you comfortable in decreeing another human being "outside of God's Grace"? Does that make you into the one who sits at the Right hand of the Father and who comes to judge the quick and the dead?

However, Christ had not come yet and the world was under the original covenant. While not suitable for Heaven, the Amalekites did not go to Hell. They just died.

Where did you see that in the Bible you understand so well?

You, however, have a choice. You have an offer of salvation. If you reject it, then you go where your sinful, unforgiven nature takes you.

I always get the sense that some pious people kinda get a wicked thrill in saying that sort of thing.

Christians have the same sinful nature but we have a personal savior and you do not. If you died today, do you think you could convince God, who you defame, to give you another chance?

Well, here's what I'll say to God (similarly as Bertrand Russel apocryphally was said to propose): "Look God, I tried. But I failed to see the data in support of belief. I looked and didn't find it. I sought and didn't feel it. So why was I allowed to persist in my ignorance? YOU gave me this big brain and I was trained up to try to utilize it to keep myself from error however limited my abilities. YOU knew what my limitations were, YOU knew what would be my path. Why am I now sitting here having to explain WHY I'm here?"

The only answer I've seen God give to those petulant enough to ask Him "why" was in Job wherein God simply told Job that he had no right to question. If that is what God is, that isn't "love" for me. If I am merely a plaything for infinite power, then I will stand there and I will say those things. And it won't matter one way or the other.

So, yes, I do fear that conception. I DO fear your God. That isn't worthy of worship. That is only worthy of fear.

Good luck.

Yes. Thanks. But I'm guessing that you got more joy out of typing that post than is probably meet for a Christian. So you should thank me for the opportunity today!

 

[Obliquinaut]

Absolutely.

Unfortunately the same thing cannot always be said for science. That is why if you wish to invoke scientific concepts to justify your belief in the Flood you should work to make a more convincing argument than simply hand waving away with laminar flow.

 

[Obliquinaut]

I don't judge what others get from their study. And if they never come to the same conclusions I do it's ok with me. Much of the understanding of scripture comes from experiencing it over time. The older you are the more experience you have, and thus understanding.....if you were paying attention in the first place.

I'm "older" now and the older I got the less "understanding" I had for what I was told the Bible was telling me. Probably because the older I got the less "accepting" I was to simply accept what someone else told me to accept. I had learned enough of the world.

This is also why I disliked the fact that religion was planted in my head from my earliest years of life. It was provided to me when I wasn't capable of assessing its validity. That made it much harder for me to reject it when it was maladaptive to me later in life.

 

[bhsmte]

I'm "older" now and the older I got the less "understanding" I had for what I was told the Bible was telling me. Probably because the older I got the less "accepting" I was to simply accept what someone else told me to accept. I had learned enough of the world.

This is also why I disliked the fact that religion was planted in my head from my earliest years of life. It was provided to me when I wasn't capable of assessing its validity. That made it much harder for me to reject it when it was maladaptive to me later in life.

Agree. There is a reason, why the religion one adheres to, is directly related to what part of the world one grew up in and what their immediate family practiced. Rejecting a religion at a young age, is also something that is very difficult for a young person to do, for obvious family and social reasons.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I'm "older" now and the older I got the less "understanding" I had for what I was told the Bible was telling me. Probably because the older I got the less "accepting" I was to simply accept what someone else told me to accept. I had learned enough of the world.

This is also why I disliked the fact that religion was planted in my head from my earliest years of life. It was provided to me when I wasn't capable of assessing its validity. That made it much harder for me to reject it when it was maladaptive to me later in life.

I never had religion forced on me. My father told us kids that if we wanted to join a church or a religion that was our choice. My mother was the lifelong Lutheran but kept her beliefs to herself. Thus I had no baggage when I came into the church at as an adult.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Unfortunately the same thing cannot always be said for science. That is why if you wish to invoke scientific concepts to justify your belief in the Flood you should work to make a more convincing argument than simply hand waving away with laminar flow.

You seem focused on my use of 'laminar flow', which is just the separation of layers of water according to their different velocities. Closer to the ground the slower thus less erosive, even given the turbulence of obstacles. At a certain depth bottom water stops moving altogether.

 

[KWCrazy]

Yet I simply couldn't "feel" His presence. I tried and tried and prayed and prayed.

I knew I couldn't "earn" salvation, that isn't how it works in Christianity, but I was pretty sure that I needed to truly LOVE God and truly loving something I didn't really "feel" felt...fake to me.

And yet, here you you are, on a Christian website.
You can't find God on your terms. You have to find Him where he dwells. You can't find Him intellectually. You can't find Him through logic and reason. These things are beneficial in many aspects and yet detrimental in others. How does an intelligent, logical mind accept the notion that someone could walk across open water? Conversely, your secular humanist observations of right and wrong do not fit with divine justice. There have been many who made the same journey you're on, notably:
Author CS Lewis,
Geneticist Francis Collins,
Biologist Alister McGrath,
Biologist George R. Price,
Biologist Mark Eastman,
Reporter Lee Strobel,
Philosopher Mortimer J. Adler,
Journalist Malcom Muggeridge,
Nobel Laureate Sigrid Undset,
And several in this forum.

The ancients had direct contact with God's miracles to convince them that He is real. We have only the history of them, plus the ones we experience or read about in the few publications that give them credence. Fortunately, we have Jesus Christ as the lamb of God, so we no longer have to make sacrifices every time we sin. The sacrifices reminded us of how our sins are a serious an affront to God. Now salvation can be attained by anyone Now, however, not accepting Christ's sacrifice is an even greater affront to the Creator. Faith is an easy passage to Heaven... but faith comes HARD.

Miracles do happen, however, and they aren't all that rare. Many in this forum have experienced miracles and most Christians experience some form of supernatural encounter at some time in their lives. No rational person delights in the misfortunes of others, but to simply smile and wave as one continues down a pathway to destruction is a demonstration of indifference; not love.

Nothing you're going to read on the internet is going to help you find Christ. Find a good church near you where the pastor is doing the Lord's work, not just trying to line his pockets, and take your questions to him. Unless you can look into a person's eyes you can't tell if he's telling you the truth. Find that truth and you're one step closer to finding the Lord.

 

[HitchSlap]

Good luck.

Thanks?

 

[Obliquinaut]

And yet, here you you are, on a Christian website.

And if you've read my posts you'll note that I do NOT wish to take anyone's Christian faith away, but rather debate the science or politics they espouse.

You can't find God on your terms.

Everyone finds God on their own terms. That's why we have so many variant readings of the Bible! So many different congregations.

You can't find Him intellectually. You can't find Him through logic and reason.

I mean no offense by this to you personally, I've heard that line so many times. And frankly it makes for a weak and pathetic version of God. There is nothing interesting in a God who creates the human mind and then asks that we not use it in pursuit of the most important topic in reality.

I will go out on a limb here and say it is precisely the kind of thing I would expect someone who, themselves, doesn't value intellect, reason or logic to say.

Again, they have found God on their terms. And it doesn't include any of the values they don't hold.

The ancients had direct contact with God's miracles to convince them that He is real. We have only the history of them,

That's certainly convenient especially since we don't see any . miracles at all today and those that are claimed are usually debunked. I wonder how many attempts were made in the ancient days to debunk miracle claims.

Now, however, not accepting Christ's sacrifice is an even greater affront to the Creator.

But denying the things the Creator appears to have made: intellect, reason, logic, science, the physical world with all its nice "evidence" and stuff. That doesn't offend God at all, right?

Faith is an easy passage to Heaven... but faith comes HARD.

That sounds nice. Ya know what really comes hard? Reason, logic, science. All that stuff that requires rigor and discipline. Those things some Christians' version of God doesn't really value.

Nothing you're going to read on the internet is going to help you find Christ.

Oh little boy. I'm much older than that! I've read BOOKS. Lots and lots of books. Including the Bible!

Find a good church near you where the pastor is doing the Lord's work, not just trying to line his pockets, and take your questions to him.

LOL. I'm long past that stage. Don't get me wrong, I love to support and help my Christian friends when they are doing good works in their community (just helped pay for a friend and his wife to do mission work in Asia!) . But I'm not in need at this point of someone else's faith.

 

[Obliquinaut]

You seem focused on my use of 'laminar flow',

To be fair to me, so far that is about the only technical topic you've mentioned. I assumed it was one of the few you've actually heard about, but clearly you are not planning on answering my questions about the Reynold's number. So....

which is just the separation of layers of water according to their different velocities.

Ummm, you might want to go back re-read the definition of laminar flow. It's a bit more detailed than that.

Closer to the ground the slower thus less erosive, even given the turbulence of obstacles. At a certain depth bottom water stops moving altogether.

You're going to have to point me to a reference there. You see if I'm moving 4x10^19 cubic feet of water as it comes up on land I'm going to have a lot of moving water and moving BED LOAD.

I'm willing to consider your math and your references, but so far you haven't offered any. You just make claims. And I'm not wired to just take your claims at face value. And I'm guessing I've got a bit more experience in this area than you might think. The fact that so far you have shown no real facility with the topic from a technical stand point makes me think you are just handwaving.

But I could be convinced...if you provide a little bit of actual detail (references, math, etc.)

(But also I realize you won't actually do that, few people who do as much handwaving as you seem to do are willing to ever actually commit to the topic at hand. )

 

[Obliquinaut]

I never had religion forced on me.

Me neither. It was just a "given". As it is for almost everyone in the US since the 17th century. It's woven into just about every aspect of our lives.

My father told us kids that if we wanted to join a church or a religion that was our choice. My mother was the lifelong Lutheran but kept her beliefs to herself. Thus I had no baggage when I came into the church at as an adult.

Good for you. And you had never heard anything as a youth about God or Jesus? You just discovered them on your own as an adult? That's really quite interesting. And I'm absolutely fascinated by such a "faith journey". Were born in a foreign country? Or were you born in some isolated place that didn't have any cities or large groups of people?

This is actually pretty fascinating.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Me neither. It was just a "given". As it is for almost everyone in the US since the 17th century. It's woven into just about every aspect of our lives.



Good for you. And you had never heard anything as a youth about God or Jesus? You just discovered them on your own as an adult? That's really quite interesting. And I'm absolutely fascinated by such a "faith journey". Were born in a foreign country? Or were you born in some isolated place that didn't have any cities or large groups of people?

This is actually pretty fascinating.

Being surrounded by water doesn't mean drowning in it. Of course I heard of God and Christianity from an early age, but paid little attention to it until I was 30. Then God called me from my wicked ways. (And I've been a perfect angel ever since. )

 

[OldWiseGuy]

To be fair to me, so far that is about the only technical topic you've mentioned. I assumed it was one of the few you've actually heard about, but clearly you are not planning on answering my questions about the Reynold's number. So....



Ummm, you might want to go back re-read the definition of laminar flow. It's a bit more detailed than that.



You're going to have to point me to a reference there. You see if I'm moving 4x10^19 cubic feet of water as it comes up on land I'm going to have a lot of moving water and moving BED LOAD.

I'm willing to consider your math and your references, but so far you haven't offered any. You just make claims. And I'm not wired to just take your claims at face value. And I'm guessing I've got a bit more experience in this area than you might think. The fact that so far you have shown no real facility with the topic from a technical stand point makes me think you are just handwaving.

But I could be convinced...if you provide a little bit of actual detail (references, math, etc.)

(But also I realize you won't actually do that, few people who do as much handwaving as you seem to do are willing to ever actually commit to the topic at hand. )

Demanding details is a common debate technique, but is not really necessary for this discussion. I take "bed load" to mean the water moved more or less like a gracier, with no laminar flow whatsoever. The flood didn't come in that fast. As soon as the flood hit land it began a climb upward, even if ever so slightly until it hit the foothills. Water at the lower levels would stop moving while water above it would slide over that layer and keep moving until they too were stopped by the increasing elevation. It would have been a rolling motion more than a single front moving from surface to bed.