Noah's Ark

[Subduction Zone]

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth". Good enough for me.

Nothing there to indicate that he used magic. If your God exists he still could have used natural processes. In fact the evidence indicates that the Earth had a natural start.

 

[AV1611VET]

There is no need to invoke the supernatural for any part of Earth's history.

Is Palestine squatting on the Promised Land?

(Or do you even understand the question?)

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Apparently you've never watched the tide come in.

Yes, because the "tides coming in" is similar to the whole damned planet being under water...

 

[Subduction Zone]

Is Palestine squatting on the Promised Land?

(Or do you even understand the question?)

N
No. And yes I understand the question.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

As far as they know, it never happened.

No. It factually never happened.
There factually is no genetic bottleneck in all species.

If the story is true (even only the part about everything except what was on the ark being killed by whatever means - a flood or otherwise), then there SHOULD be a genetic bottleneck in all species.

But there is no such universal bottleneck. At all.

In case you still don't get it: yes, that means that the mass death event never occured.

 

[Cearbhall]

As far as they know, it never happened.

You could say that about certain other stories, but Noah's Ark is something that has been completely ruled out. It's incompatible with the reality of human genetics, biodiversity, human migration, the history of civilizations, and so many other realms of knowledge.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The laws of nature are supernatural. Science is the study of supernatural creation.

lol, owkay then.

I am suddenly reminded by that wonderfull Beavis and Butthead quote:
"uhuhuhu... if everything was cool all the time and...uhu...and like...nothing sucked...how would you know it was cool?"

I think you just forfeited your very own argument, by saying that.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

And yet they say that if there was an ark it wouldn't have survived

Yes. What do you think the "if" means, in that sentence?
Could it perhaps be an...i dunno...hypothetical?

It seems to me that much of their skepticism rests on the contention that the ark as described would not be 'seaworthy'.

And that everything about the story is physically, geologically and biologically impossible.

If they had to admit that such a structure could survive then they would be faced with yet more concessions regarding the story

Nope. You'ld still be left with a story that is physically, geologically and biologically impossible.

I believe this is why they will not admit that the ark was not a 'ship' or 'boat' of some familiar design.

Well, you obviously "believe" a lot of things.

 

[Obliquinaut]

Why do you think I'm a YEC?

You appear to be taking a literal read on the Noachian Flood, which would seem to indicate that you think

1) The Flood happened within human history
2) It explains much of the geology we see around us

If it is not the case that you are YEC, then what do you suppose was happening on earth for intervening few billion years? And how do you propose that sediment laid down only a couple thousand years ago has become solid rock while humanity watched but failed to note this?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You appear to be taking a literal read on the Noachian Flood, which would seem to indicate that you think

1) The Flood happened within human history
2) It explains much of the geology we see around us

If it is not the case that you are YEC, then what do you suppose was happening on earth for intervening few billion years? And how do you propose that sediment laid down only a couple thousand years ago has become solid rock while humanity watched but failed to note this?

I predict that he'll invoke the supernatural again.

 

[AV1611VET]

No.

Then this doosey ...

There is no need to invoke the supernatural for any part of Earth's history.

... can take a hike.

And yes I understand the question.

Really? Let's find out, shall we?

Are the Palestinians from the ancient Philistines?

 

[Colter]

Nothing there to indicate that he used magic. If your God exists he still could have used natural processes. In fact the evidence indicates that the Earth had a natural start.

God does everything his natural way. To God nothing is a miracle, everything he does has a logical explanation.

 

[Obliquinaut]

I predict that he'll invoke the supernatural again.

And I'm fine with that. Perhaps his position is other than YEC, it could be that he believes the earth to be billions of years old with standard geology until a couple thousand years ago when God suddenly changed all the rules of physics, chemistry and geology for a few months and somehow created a new earth in a very short period of time.

That would mean he isn't a YEC but he is definitely utilizing YEC type reasoning when it comes to the mechanisms of the geologic structures.

 

[Obliquinaut]

God does everything his natural way. To God nothing is a miracle, everything he does has a logical explanation.

This sounds like it might be somewhat circular. Of course everything God does is natural to His way. He would be completely outside of nature. I think the deeper point of the other poster is that for those of us inside nature the processes that occur follow very specific rules that are inviolable. Just as if I were watching a soccer game I can use my hands to hold a ball, but if I am IN a soccer match and not the goalie I can't.

If I see a rock layer that looks exactly like countless of other structures I've seen that is lain down over the course of a long period of time and turns into a rock upon burial and cementation and diagenesis etc. then I am reasonable in assuming the rock I see took that long and that process to form. It would be irrational for me to assume it was placed there by a "miracle", even if God were to be able to make such a miracle.

And this leads to the further point of: why would God set up natural laws only to violate them and make things look other than what they appear to be? That is the essence of duplicity and deceit and I cannot think of a Christian alive who thinks God would do that.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

And I'm fine with that. Perhaps his position is other than YEC, it could be that he believes the earth to be billions of years old with standard geology until a couple thousand years ago when God suddenly changed all the rules of physics, chemistry and geology for a few months and somehow created a new earth in a very short period of time.

That would mean he isn't a YEC but he is definitely utilizing YEC type reasoning when it comes to the mechanisms of the geologic structures.

Isn't that what they call Old Earth Creationism?

 

[Obliquinaut]

Then this doosey ...
... can take a hike.

Subduction Zone is correct. What we see in nature can be explained using natural laws. Sure there are some mysterious things out there, but when you realize that there's something like a 100% hit rate for explaining nature using natural laws it is reasonable to assume that everything is thus explicable.

Here's where biblical literalism fails when it comes to the Noachian Flood: the Flood story claims events and features that if they happened as literally explained in the Bible would leave enormous markers that would have parallels in regular geology.

1. If all life was wiped out (save the folks on the Ark) at one point in time it would show in the rock record. Why? Because we've seen mass extinctions in the rock record before. We know what they look like. We even have a great analogue at the K-T boundary (where the dinos went extinct. We have a layer of rock with dinosaur fossils in it, then a layer with an increase in Iridium, then the layers above that have NO DINOSAURS in them, ever anywhere --save birds if you want to be pedantic).

2. If all the rocks were laid down during the Noachian Flood we'd know because we've seen who floods deposit stuff in smaller scale, AND we know how rocks usually form! (meaning these would likely not be rocks certainly not in the same scale as many Floodists claim)

If the Biblical Flood happened it would leave a trace that was only explicable via the story. UNLESS GOD CLEANED EVERYTHING UP TO THE POINT WHERE NO EVIDENCE WAS LEFT. And that would be deceitful. I doubt that God, if He existed, would be deceitful. CERTAINLY if He knew with his omnipotence that cleaning up the evidence would one day lead to people being lead astray from Him and winding them up in Damnation for eternity.

Is God a loving God? Then he wouldn't do that either. Is God an Honest God? If so he wouldn't "hide" (clean up) the evidence leading us to error.

 

[Obliquinaut]

Isn't that what they call Old Earth Creationism?

Yes, in that the creation event would be at a distant time in the past (4.5 GA etc.) I made the assumption of YEC in that the poster is taking the literal read on the Noachian flood which must have occurred within the span of human history and if it lead to the majority of the features we see geologically would lead me to believe they relied on YEC type mechanisms.

 

[Colter]

This sounds like it might be somewhat circular. Of course everything God does is natural to His way. He would be completely outside of nature. I think the deeper point of the other poster is that for those of us inside nature the processes that occur follow very specific rules that are inviolable. Just as if I were watching a soccer game I can use my hands to hold a ball, but if I am IN a soccer match and not the goalie I can't.

If I see a rock layer that looks exactly like countless of other structures I've seen that is lain down over the course of a long period of time and turns into a rock upon burial and cementation and diagenesis etc. then I am reasonable in assuming the rock I see took that long and that process to form. It would be irrational for me to assume it was placed there by a "miracle", even if God were to be able to make such a miracle.

And this leads to the further point of: why would God set up natural laws only to violate them and make things look other than what they appear to be? That is the essence of duplicity and deceit and I cannot think of a Christian alive who thinks God would do that.

True, religion contains human speculation and conjecture. Genesis was the creation of holy men of faith who developed a comprehensive story of origins for public consumption. In doing so they culled from some of what we would term distant "super natural" events, embellished them for effect and in ignorance of there meaning, and then wove them in with the natural. In that enchanted age people may not have questioned the creation story, today we know parts of it are simply not true.

 

[AV1611VET]

If the Biblical Flood happened it would leave a trace that was only explicable via the story. UNLESS GOD CLEANED EVERYTHING UP TO THE POINT WHERE NO EVIDENCE WAS LEFT. And that would be deceitful. I doubt that God, if He existed, would be deceitful.

This gets old, but since you're new, I'll explain it again for about the 80th time.

God cleaned up His mess.

He didn't leave blood and a scar behind when He operated on Adam, and He didn't leave an unsanitary environment behind for Noah to step out into.

The dove brought back an olive leaf.

That tells me that God not only cleaned up His mess, but He also re-floraled the earth back to the way it was in Genesis 1.

And if you call that "deceit," then I submit you have a serious problem with sanitation and safety environments.

It's hard to call it "deceit" when God documented what He did, when He did it, how He did it, what order He did it in, how long it took Him to do it, and who the eyewitnesses were.

But, of course, if that's your bag, then that's your bag.

You're no different than those in Biblical times who accused Jesus of deceit too.

Matthew 27:63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

 

[Obliquinaut]

This gets old, but since you're new, I'll explain it again for about the 80th time.

God cleaned up His mess.

And for what is probably the 80th time you'll hear the big question: why would God clean up the mess knowing as he would that it would lead many of us to ERROR and damnation?

And if you call that "deceit," then I submit you have a serious problem with sanitation and safety environments.

Repeat: GOD KNEW EXACTLY WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF HE CLEANED UP THE EVIDENCE SUCH THAT IT LOOKS LIKE IT NEVER EXISTED.

No one else can know with perfect foreknowledge except God. Ergo God KNEW what would happen. It leads to error and damnation for some people. And God knew exactly who those people would be.

Is he thus a Loving God? Well, ask those folks who wind up in Hell.

It's hard to call it "deceit" when God documented what He did

Let's say I commit a robbery and remove all evidence so perfectly that no sign of the robbery even exists. Then I write a story about how BOB committed the robbery. Is my documentation good?

Remember: many of us don't simply believe something someone else (another HUMAN) wrote simply because they wrote it.

And again, God KNEW THIS ALL ALONG. He KNEW that many of us insulate ourselves from being deceived by other humans by simply demanding evidence that the written claims are correct.

, when He did it, how He did it, what order He did it in, how long it took Him to do it, and who the eyewitnesses were.

Here's the error: God didn't write the book of Genesis. HUMANS wrote the Book of Genesis. Humans who claimed God inspired them to write it.

But, of course, if that's your bag, then that's your bag.

Definitely not my bag to worship at the feet of an all-knowing God who did things He knew would lead me into error.

You're no different than those in Biblical times who accused Jesus of deceit too.

Matthew 27:63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

Yup. I am flawed because other humans are KNOWN to deceive and many humans have told me they speak on behalf of God. I don't believe them.

The Bible is another document written fully by humans claiming to be the word of God. I will require more "proof".

If that is how I fail (lack of "faith") then so be it. It is how God made the world (with lots of deceitful people) and if God is unhappy that I have used the only tools available to me to AVOID that deceit then He is responsible for that. That's HIS bag.