Noah's Ark

[Firscherscherling]

And he was guaranteed eternal peace through it all. Some sacrifice...

 

[Cantuar]

Ok, what is the difference between a bird and a bat?

Bats are mammals; birds aren't. Birds have feathers; bats don't. Bats have teeth; birds don't. Etc etc. The only similarity between birds and bats is that the forelimbs are modified for flight.

 

[Cantuar]

The Bible doesn't really mean birds when it says "birds" because it doesn't say "birds", it says whatever the Hebrew word is.

Yes, I understand that, but the point is, did the old Hebrew word for "bird" include "bat" as well? Did they really not understand the difference between feathered egg-layers and furry mammals?

 

[bagfullofsnakes]

Oh, you want to have a Bible study. Ok.

Sure. Although next time, why don't you actually refer to your bible? Or, if you ARE going to use it, go ahead and tell the truth; the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Genesis 7:17
Now the flood was on the earth forty days. The waters increased and lifted up the ark, and it rose high above the earth.

Here we see that it rained for 40 days and 40 nights.

Genesis 8:6
So it came to pass, at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made.

At the end of 40 days and 40 nights it quit raining.

Genesis 7:24
And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days.

The water remained at high flood level for 150 days. Then it began to decrease or go down.

OK, I'll go along with it so far...

Genesis 8:5
And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.

The water continued to decrease for 223 when the tops of the trees were first seen.

Whoa there...stop right there!

What about Gen 8:3-4?

The water receded steadily from the earth. At the end of the hundred and fifty days the water had gone down, 4 and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat

Clearly, this contradicts your theory that the water slowly receded until the 10th month, when the tops of the first mountains were seen. The ark COULD NOT have came to rest on Mt. Ararat, unless the waters had already receded!

Also, this contradicts Gen 8:10-11
He waited seven more days and again sent out the dove from the ark. 11 When the dove returned to him in the evening, there in its beak was a freshly plucked olive leaf! Then Noah knew that the water had receded from the earth.

Here, Noah has released the 2nd dove (on the 47th day...see Gen 8:6), and as it states, on the 47th day, "Noah knew that the water had receded from the earth." And the waters had not merely been receded, but receded enough so that the dove could pluck an olive leaf. Olives don't grow at high atltitudes, so it seems the bible is trying to tell us that that waters weren't mostly receded, but all the way receded!

Genesis 8:13
And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.

The ground was dry in the land of Eden or Adamia

Genesis 8:14
And in the second month, on the twenty-seventh day of the month, the earth was dried.

Here we are told the ground was dry on the earth or the "erets".

Again, you've neglected Gen 8:6-12. Look, here it is, for the sake of simplicity.

Genesis 8
6 After forty days Noah opened the window he had made in the ark 7 and sent out a raven, and it kept flying back and forth until the water had dried up from the earth. 8 Then he sent out a dove to see if the water had receded from the surface of the ground. 9 But the dove could find no place to set its feet because there was water over all the surface of the earth; so it returned to Noah in the ark. He reached out his hand and took the dove and brought it back to himself in the ark. 10 He waited seven more days and again sent out the dove from the ark. 11 When the dove returned to him in the evening, there in its beak was a freshly plucked olive leaf! Then Noah knew that the water had receded from the earth . 12 He waited seven more days and sent the dove out again, but this time it did not return to him.

Also, let's take a look at what Gen 8:13-14 actually say, not what you want them to say:

Gen 8:13
By the first day of the first month of Noah's six hundred and first year, the water had dried up from the earth. Noah then removed the covering from the ark and saw that the surface of the ground was dry.

OK, the earth was dry on day 318. Nevermind the fact that this contradicts Gen 8:11, which states that the "waters were abated from the earth", on the 47th day.

Gen 8:14
By the twenty-seventh day of the second month the earth was completely dry.

Wait a second, in the previous verse, it said the ground was already dry, on day 318. NOW it's saying the ground was completely dry on day 375.

Which is it?

Close John, but no cigar. Keep working on it. Also, we haven't even broached the subject of whether Noah brought on two of each kind, male and female (Gen 6:19-20) or seven of each clean beast, male and female, and two of each unclean beast, male and female. (Gen 7:2)

Then, there is the matter of there not being enough water, of the impossibility of MODERN technology producing a 450ft long, wooden ship, much less Bronze Age "technology", logistics such as food, water, predators, prey, animals from distant lands that cannot swim, plants, etc. etc. etc.

Whew! What a mental workout it must be to try and make your belief fit the absolute, and complete lack of evidence.

 

[LaserCool]

No one can earn God's love. They are not worthy of it in any way.

Your God is a myth.

Of course, the destruction of pride is part of the Christian plan, to make people think so little of themselves they'd gladly give thier lives to God, or rather the self-appointed representatives of God on Earth. This is a transparent ploy to get people to give up thier own wills to..people like you!

I reclaim pride, and independence, the right of judgement, and the power of my own mind. In doing so, I realize I don't need God's love, or anyone else's. I love myself. That is more than sufficient.

And everything I've read about your God convinces me that he's not worthy of my love. Condemning people to Hell for eternity, killing his own son, ordering the slaughter of thousands on non-Jews. This guy deserves nothing but my contempt.

Also God's love is a sacrifical love. God loved the world so much that He gave. What did He give, His only begotten Son. Jesus went to the cross and gave Himself for us, for our sake. Why? Because of the Joy set before Him. Because He knew that we could be redeemed.

Didn't he say "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani"? Hardly sounds like someone who has Joy set before him.

You can reject God's love, mercy, grace and forgiveness if you want. It is freely given, and you can freely receive it or not as you please. That is why to be redeemed is of your own free will and choice. It is up to you if you want to walk in God's unconditional love.

I could choose to give my wallet to a mugger with a gun at my head, or I could choose to be shot and killed. Not much of a choice, eh?

By the same token, I could choose to give up my own will, mind and self-posession, or I could burn in Hell forever. Not much of a choice. eh?

Just like pointing a gun at my head doesn't make the mugger right, threatening me with eternal torture doesn't make God loving, kind or just.

Your love is conditional, you say people have to earn it in some way. Well, there is no way you could ever earn God's love. The kinda love you talk about is to weak and flimsy.

Yes, my love is conditional. They do have to earn it. There is no such thing as unconditional love, and perhaps I'm the first to call it what it is. You wouldn't love a child molester, especialy if you were his victim. What you ask of people, love thier enemies, is the most offensive thing; it destroys pride, self and love, degrading it to something you woudn't feed pigs.

But, that's the point. Destuction of Self. Makes the followers easliy pliable by the self-anointed spokesmen for God. .

 

[sfs]

Yes, I understand that, but the point is, did the old Hebrew word for "bird" include "bat" as well? Did they really not understand the difference between feathered egg-layers and furry mammals?

The answer to your first question appears to be "yes", simply based on this passage. Your second question seems to suggest that they would only have used the same word for bats and birds if they didn't understand the differences between them. I don't know, but I suspect that they did know the difference, but used the same word because the similarities were more striking than the differences. There's no reason for an ordinary language to adopt the distinctions that are most interesting to biologists. Do English speakers really not understand the difference between fresh and salt water, since they use the same word, "river", to talk about both types?

 

[JohnR7]

Whew! What a mental workout it must be to try and make your belief fit the absolute, and complete lack of evidence.

It maybe a work out for you, because your finite and God is infinite. Man, at least Adam and Eve were created with a tiny mind and tiny heart to match God's big heart and His big mind. Adam and Eve were created with divine inspiritation. Mankind was never intended to try and function on their own apart from God.

You can receive the Holy Spirit of God and be divinely inspired. The Holy Spirit of Grace and Truth is our helper & comforter. He guides us and leads us in the way that we are to go. He helps us to understand the world of God so that we can clearly see, there are no contradictions.

If you really want to know the truth, then keep seeking after it. You can know the truth and the truth will set you free.

 

[JohnR7]

Your God is a myth..

Is Nike a myth? Is Aphrodities a myth? Was Helen of Troy a myth? Even if God were a myth, there is still a enduring lesson to be learned and we would not want to ignore or disregard that.

Of course, the destruction of pride is part of the Christian plan, to make people think so little of themselves they'd gladly give thier lives to God, or rather the self-appointed representatives of God on Earth. This is a transparent ploy to get people to give up thier own wills to..people like you!

To people like me? Not at all, our objective is to help people to discover truth for themselves. You can not teach truth to people, then have to find it for themselves. They have to open up to God and be taught by God. Moses use to spend 40 day of fasting along in the mountains with just God to teach him. Our Bible was given to us by the people who were inspired by God, not taught by man.

I reclaim pride, and independence, the right of judgement, and the power of my own mind. In doing so, I realize I don't need God's love, or anyone else's. I love myself. That is more than sufficient.

If you think you do not need God, then your deceived. Man was not created to function apart from God. Nor was man created to function apart from God's love.

And everything I've read about your God convinces me that he's not worthy of my love. Condemning people to Hell for eternity, killing his own son, ordering the slaughter of thousands on non-Jews. This guy deserves nothing but my contempt.

Perhaps instead of listening to what people tell you about God, you could get to know Him for yourself. What you think you know does not seem to come from the Bible. Is it so difficult to see that the problem is not with God, but with your distorted thinking about God.

 

[bagfullofsnakes]

It maybe a work out for you, because your finite and God is infinite. Man, at least Adam and Eve were created with a tiny mind and tiny heart to match God's big heart and His big mind. Adam and Eve were created with divine inspiritation. Mankind was never intended to try and function on their own apart from God.

You can receive the Holy Spirit of God and be divinely inspired. The Holy Spirit of Grace and Truth is our helper & comforter. He guides us and leads us in the way that we are to go. He helps us to understand the world of God so that we can clearly see, there are no contradictions.

If you really want to know the truth, then keep seeking after it. You can know the truth and the truth will set you free.

You've got to be kidding!

John, you made the assertion (in post #7 ) that "You can not falsify the Bible."

I then pointed out the discrepancies in the Noah myth, to which you challenged me to a "bible study", as you called it.

I rose to, and met your challenge, only to get this in response!

How utterly, completely, evasive.

We were talking dates & timelines, based on actual, "objective" scripture, and you respond with...what?

Nothing. Just a bunch of gobbleygook about what a great god you believe in. So what?

And, after completely avoiding any real discussion, you have the nerve to say this:

there are no contradictions...

Then why can't you answer my points in post #64 ?

If you can't make any sense of the nonsense, just say so. I'll have more respect for your honesty, than your evasivness.

 

[JohnR7]

I then pointed out the discrepancies in the Noah myth, to which you challenged me to a "bible study", as you called it.

The problem is not in the Bible. The problem is in your understanding of the Bible. This is not a question of explaining the Bible, this is a question of getting your thinking straightened out.

It is sort of like someone that is crippled. You can pray and God can heal them but then they have to learn to walk again. Some people would rather go right on with what they are use to, rather than to have to learn something new.

The Holy Spirit is the one that does a work in our lives, to help us to understand the Word of God. All I can do is try to help you to allow the Holy Spirit of Truth and Grace to do a work in your life.

 

[Melange_Thief]

The problem is not in the Bible. The problem is in your understanding of the Bible.

Then show us. Show us how exactly there are no contradictions. Not a nonsense statement. And you can't say it's because the Bible is completely true.

 

[bagfullofsnakes]

The problem is not in the Bible. The problem is in your understanding of the Bible. This is not a question of explaining the Bible, this is a question of getting your thinking straightened out.

It is sort of like someone that is crippled. You can pray and God can heal them but then they have to learn to walk again. Some people would rather go right on with what they are use to, rather than to have to learn something new.

The Holy Spirit is the one that does a work in our lives, to help us to understand the Word of God. All I can do is try to help you to allow the Holy Spirit of Truth and Grace to do a work in your life.

Hmmmm...

You can't answer the questions, and so this is my problem?

You can't back up your assertions, and it's me that doesn't understand the scripture?

It's interesting though, that I understand it well enough to completely shut you down on this topic. I mean, if you had anything of substance to say, you'd have said it by now.

Instead, I continue to get this "god is a swell guy", and "you just don't get it" rhetoric. You can't answer the questions, and so now you want to wiggle out of it.

OK, fine.

When I entered into this discussion with you, I thought you were interested in genuine debate. Now, I know better.

John, let me know if you plan to actually discuss this topic. Until then, I simply won't waste any more time with you.

Thanks for playing as long as you did.

 

[Arikay]

You havent been around for too long have you Snakes.

 

[JohnR7]

Then show us. Show us how exactly there are no contradictions. Not a nonsense statement. And you can't say it's because the Bible is completely true.

How much are you willing to pay me to compensate me for my time that you seem to want me to spend answering your questions?

 

[Arikay]

I would assume none, since you made the claim.

If you make a claim, I would assume you should be willing to back it up, I mean, thats the ethical thing to do, right?

How much are you willing to pay me to compensate me for my time that you seem to want me to spend answering your questions?

 

[euphoric]

How much are you willing to pay me to compensate me for my time that you seem to want me to spend answering your questions?

I think a few people around here might pay a bit of money for the small miracle of having you actually answer a question.

-brett

 

[AngelAmidala]

[glow=teal]Admin Hat On[/glow]

I would pay....ummm....my undying respect if ya'll would get back to the original topic and stop talking about paying people to answer questions and stuff.

Thanks.

[glow=teal]Admin Hat Off[/glow]

 

[Doctrine1st]

The problem is not in the Bible. The problem is in your understanding of the Bible.

This quaint and profound statement is absolutely true; there is nothing wrong with the Bible, the problem lies in how it is interpreted.

If the Bible were to be interpreted right, there would be no need for apologetics. The myths of Zeus, Attis, Dionysus, heck, even the progenitor of the Noah Flood account; the Sumerian Flood account, all have been interpreted correctly, and there for some reason seems to be no need for apologetic forums for them.

D1st

 

[JohnR7]

.
Yet still you make a statements such as "there is plenty of evidence for noah, and quite a bit is known about Noahs sons".

A good place to start would be Eastons Bible Dictionary. They have on on Crosswalk dot com. You can run a search on Noah, his sons or just about anyone else in the Bible and find quite a bit of information about them there.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Dictionaries/EastonsBibleDictionary/

 

[LaserCool]

I'll keep this short, because we are going off-topic.

Is Nike a myth? Is Aphrodities a myth? Was Helen of Troy a myth? Even if God were a myth, there is still a enduring lesson to be learned and we would not want to ignore or disregard that.

You are equivocating. You are willing to accept that your God *may not* exist, to try to argue that the lessons of the Bible are valid. Either the Bible is ABSOLUTELY TRUE or it is not John. if the Bible is ABSOLUTELY TRUE, then the stance you are taking is blasphemy.

Sperately, I do not think that the Bible offers a vision of humanity that is valid. Specifically, I mean that since the nature of humans is to live selfishly, rationally, egoistically and objecively-oriented in order to maintain one's life, then the Bible advocates a position opposite to the needs of living a human life on Earth.

This isn't valid tot he thread, so I'll save my comments on this for a more appropriate place.

To people like me? Not at all, our objective is to help people to discover truth for themselves. You can not teach truth to people, then have to find it for themselves. They have to open up to God and be taught by God. Moses use to spend 40 day of fasting along in the mountains with just God to teach him. Our Bible was given to us by the people who were inspired by God, not taught by man.

Yes John, to people like you. It's all terribly conveinient that you should be the one trying to bring the ABSOLUTE TRUTH to the unbelievers, and that they'd credit you with the delivery of it. Christianity doesn't come about by reflection, because if it did, there would be plenty of Christians all over the world who came to those conclusions by themselves.

In fact, in the Gospels, Jesus recognizes that he'd have to send out missionaries to cary the "good news" to everyone. The fact is, they couldn't figure it out for themselves, but had to have a missionary bring it to them.

You can say that God inspired the Bible, but unless you have extraordinary proof for that extraordinary claim, there's no reason to believe it.

I might claim that a book I wrote was divinely inspired. How could you prove me wrong, especially if I wrote in that book that it was divinely inspired, and I quoted that passage to prove its divine inspiration?

If you think you do not need God, then your deceived. Man was not created to function apart from God. Nor was man created to function apart from God's love.

Clearly, in order to respire, think, work, trade, walk, talk and do anything needed to maintain and advance life, one doesn't need God. Look at the millions of atheists who do these things every day. They are living proof that one doesn't need God to live.

i guess you'd take the typical theist track and try to agrue that physical life is possible, but it's of no value without God,

Perhaps instead of listening to what people tell you about God, you could get to know Him for yourself. What you think you know does not seem to come from the Bible. Is it so difficult to see that the problem is not with God, but with your distorted thinking about God.

Would Bible verses of God's murderous brutality help?

The entire population of the earth at the time of Noah, except for eight survivors, in a flood. "And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth; and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark." Gen 7:23

Every inhabitant of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the surrounding plain, by "brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven." Gen 19:24.

All the first born of every family in Egypt, including children of those in dungeons and the successor to the throne of Egypt's Pharaoh, by God on the first Passover night. Ex 12:29

All the hosts of Pharaoh, including the captains of 600 chariots, who drown in the Red Sea while pursuing the Israelites. "... and the Lord overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea." Ex 14:27-28

Victims who perish in the conquest of seven nations in Canaan by the Jews under Gods guidance so that the Jews can occupy their lands as God had promised Abraham in Deut 7:1,2. The Hittites, Girga*****s, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites were all destroyed, every man, woman and child and mercy was shown to none.

Amalek and his people, by the edge of the sword, because God wants to fight with Amalek from generation to generation. Ex 17:11,16

3,000 Israelites die at the hands of their brothers, the Levites, every man, their brothers and their companions. Ex. 32:27

Rulers of Israel, eleven in number after spying for forty days that wouldn't invade the Promised Land are killed by a plague. Num. 14:37

250 Levite princes of the Jews who challenged the leadership of Moses. When Moses points out the injustice of killing the whole congregation God relents briefly, then swallows up two of the princes, "their wives, sons and little children", then sent a fire to consume the remaining princes. Num. 16:1-40

14,700 people die by plague who protest to Moses about the prior killing of the 250 princes. Num 16:41-49

The Canaanites at Hormah, utterly destroyed, every man woman and child, by God at the request of the Jews. Num 21:3

The Amorites at Hesbon, Israel "took all these cities". Moses sums up the slaughter: "We... utterly destroyed the men and the women and the little ones." Num 21:25 and Deut 2:34

All the sons and subjects of Og, about whom the Lord said to Moses: "Fear him (the king of Bashan) not, for I have delivered him into thy hand." None was left alive. Num 21:34-35

24,000 Israelites who cohabitated with Moabite women and worshiped Baal. "And the Lord said to Moses, take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun..." Num 25:4,9

All the males and the kings of the Middianites, because they worshiped idols, and all their wives and male children were sold into slavery. "And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, vex the Midianites, and smite them." Num 25:16-17 and Num 31:7-8

The subjects of two kingdoms on the east side of the Jordan, in order that Reuben and Gad might seize the land for their own as a gift from God. Num 32

The Ammonites, decimated by the Lord so that Lot might possess their land. Deut 2:19-21

The Horims, slain by God in order that Esau might take their land. Deut 2:22

All the citizens of Jericho, except for a harlot and her family. "And they utterly destroyed all in the city, man and woman, young and old, and ox... with the edge of the sword." Josh 6.

12,000 men, women and children die in an ambush conceived and directed by God. Joshua holds out his spear until all the inhabitants are dead. The city was then burned.Josh 8:1-30

All the people of Makkedah, and their king hanged, by Joshua. Joshua 10:28

All the people of Libnah. Not a soul remained. Joshua 10:29-30

All the people of Gezer, with none remaining, are killed. Josh 10:33

All the people of Eglon, none remaining, are killed. Joshua 10:34-35

All the people of Hebron, "All the cities and souls that were in them". Joshua 10:36-37

All the inhabitants of the country of the hills, and the south of the vale, and the springs and their kings, he left none remaining but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded. Joshua 10:40

The inhabitants of Gaza, Askerlon, and Ekron, killed by Judah and Caleb. Judges 1:18-19

10,000 Moabites, killed by the Israelites. Judges 3:29

10,000 Perizzites and Canaanites die at the hand of Judah and Simeon. Judges 1:4

120,000 Midianites die by the hands of Gideons three hundred men. Judges 8:10

50,070 people of Bethshemesh, struck dead by God because a few of them looked at/into the Ark carrying the stone tablets. 1st Samuel 6:19

70,000 victims die of a pestilence sent by God. 11 Sam 24:15


God turns Lots wife into a pillar of salt when she looks back in horror at what is happening to her friends and neighbors. Gen 19

For "offering strange fire before the Lord", two sons of Aaron, priests of the tabernacle, are struck dead. Lev 10:1-2

A blasphemer curses the name of God in the wilderness camp, and God orders him stoned to death: "And he children of Israel did as the Lord commanded Moses. Lev 24:23

Israelites who complain, with good reason, in the desert, are burned with fire by God in the uttermost parts of the camp. Num 11:1

A man caught picking up sticks on the Sabbath is ordered by God to be put to death, and the wandering tribes comply. Num15:35-36