Noah’s “special” problem

[dad]

Which is great….as proof of the flood does not exist.

The world was covered in water, it is just that you do not know how to look for proof.

Wood is not the best material for shipbuilding. It is not enough that a ship be built to hold together; it must also be sturdy enough that the changing stresses don't open gaps in its hull.

It may have been metal.

There are 4,675 species of mammals, 9,800 species of birds, 4,800 species of amphibian, 6,700 species of reptile, 1.5 million species of insects. And this does not include extinct species.

Reptiles sometimes are pretty good in the water, and amphibians are a natural. Insects, may or may not have been there, I doubt it personally. Now, to the animals and birds which was Noah's job. The extinct ones in some cases may have been extinct when the flood began. Of the 14400 or so species of birds and beasts we now have, I assume a single common ancestor for most types. At the very least for things like tigers where the 33 present species all came from a sinlr ancestor according to dna. If we use this to get a rough average, we see that 14400 divided by 33 = 436.36 So, we have a measley 436 kinds of birds and beasts on the ark. Now if all cats came from the two, such as lions, and tigers, bobcats, etc etc, we reduce the number expodentially as well, but I think the 436 does the trick nicely!!! And to think some doubted!
Hyper evolution was a wonderful thing.

 

[outlaw]

The world was covered in water, it is just that you do not know how to look for proof.

Not tough to look for evidence….there are mountains of evidence that it did not happen…and no evidence that actually shows your fairy tail as true

It may have been metal.

Still making up things I see…
To do this you would have to ignore the bible….which kind of shoots your position in the foot.

Make yourself an ark of gopherwood; make rooms in the ark, and cover it inside and outside with pitch. Gen 6:14

Reptiles sometimes are pretty good in the water, and amphibians are a natural. Insects, may or may not have been there, I doubt it personally. Now, to the animals and birds which was Noah's job. The extinct ones in some cases may have been extinct when the flood began. Of the 14400 or so species of birds and beasts we now have, I assume a single common ancestor for most types. At the very least for things like tigers where the 33 present species all came from a sinlr ancestor according to dna. If we use this to get a rough average, we see that 14400 divided by 33 = 436.36 So, we have a measley 436 kinds of birds and beasts on the ark. Now if all cats came from the two, such as lions, and tigers, bobcats, etc etc, we reduce the number expodentially as well, but I think the 436 does the trick nicely!!! And to think some doubted!
Hyper evolution was a wonderful thing.

As long as you are making things up…why not just have some friendly aliens give Noah a shrinking ray?

 

[dad]

Not tough to look for evidence….there are mountains of evidence that it did not happen…

Not a mole hill. Just the improper viewing of evidence through old age glasses.

Still making up things I see…
To do this you would have to ignore the bible….which kind of shoots your position in the foot.

Make yourself an ark of gopherwood; make rooms in the ark, and cover it inside and outside with pitch. Gen 6:14

" In Genesis 6:14, the material out of which Noah was instructed to construct the ark. The etymology of the Hebrew word is unknown, and there is no certainty as to the type of wood to which it refers. Even the earliest translators were uncertain. "
http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T2355

After all, the word is of doubtful signification, and occurs nowhere else in the Scriptures. ...so it is evident that these translators knew not what kind of wood was intended by the original.

http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=ge&chapter=6&verse=14#Ge6_14

What does gophers possibly have to do with it?
Here is a possibility that might explain it.
If you have ever seen some gophers tunnels, you would have seen some little piles of dirt, and rocks, etc., which they push out from where the tunnel was dug.
Here is a story to be taken with a grain of salt, meant to illustrate that Gopher 'wood' may be stronger than we thought.--A long time ago, there used to be men who were skilled in many areas, such as farming, vineyards, and music. Gen 4:20 "And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle. 21 And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ. 22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: "
One day, one of the metalworkers made a strong substance from an idea he got looking at a gopher's pile of dirt. One simply took some natural resin and sand, coated a log, or almost anything one wanted, poured in the iron, or metal, and presto, when dry the formed metal log was now ready. My, I think I'll call this gopher wood, he thought, and the name stuck, in that pre flood ancient world. Imagine a boat built of this stuff? Or, perhaps the frame, hull etc where support was crucial, and maybe the outside finished with oak, or some wood, then everything sealed with pitch?!
Now, if it was anything at all like this, why, no wonder the poor guys translating the bible could not figure out what kind of 'wood' gopher wood was!
Have times changed? Oh, yes, but when we look, we see some things may be similar in some ways.
"What is the Sand Cast Process?
It is the process where moist bonded or resin coated sand is firmly packed around a wood or metal pattern of the item(s) to be made. The wood and/or metal pattern is then removed and the resulting cavity is filled with the molten metal. Once the cavity is filled the mold undergoes air drying. The mold(s) are then removed to be cut from the gate and runner as individual pieces. "
"
Most versatile & low-cost method of casting.
Strength and lightness in certain light metal alloys.
Good bearing qualities are obtained in sand casted metals.
Extremely large, heavy metal objects may be cast when they would be difficult or economically impossible to produce otherwise.
Suitable for Ferrous & Non-Ferrous materials void of limitations such as size, shape or weight.
Suitable for low or unlimited quantities making this method ideally economical.
The most intricate of shapes, both external and internal, may be cast. "
http://www.atlasbronze.com/sand_casting.html

 

[USincognito]

Vikings built huge boats in the day.

Actually Viking boats weren't huge, they were effiicient. The longest ones were around 100 ft. (33ish m) IIRC. That's no where near huge compared to some of the barges and galleons that were built before the advent of all metal ships.

A better, though weaker analogy would be the Chinese Dragon Ships of the 15th Century that supposedly reached proportions nearing those claimed for the Ark. The problem is that while we have examples of Viking boats (I have a photo of myself at a museum where a complete one is on display), we don't have any evidence of the Dragon Ships beyond written records.

As far as your appeal to devine intervention, you've stepped out of the realm of science and archaeology, and into ad hockery and thus left science in the rear view mirror.

 

[USincognito]

Dont worry man their so called knowledge is way over are heads, they assume we never took any classes of any kind. Poor them

Thanks but keep your pity for people who don't know something about the relative size of Viking longboats and Chinese Dragon Ships, etc. vis a vis the claimed size of the Ark...

 

[outlaw]

" In Genesis 6:14, the material out of which Noah was instructed to construct the ark. The etymology of the Hebrew word is unknown, and there is no certainty as to the type of wood to which it refers. Even the earliest translators were uncertain. "
http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T2355

After all, the word is of doubtful signification, and occurs nowhere else in the Scriptures. ...so it is evident that these translators knew not what kind of wood was intended by the original.

http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=ge&chapter=6&verse=14#Ge6_14

What does gophers possibly have to do with it?

Monkey wood is not made form monkeys.
Green monkeys aren’t green
Lunar moths don’t come form the moon
None of this changes what the bible says…and it says…gopher wood…not metal.

Here is a possibility that might explain it.

Will it be as internally consistent as the friendly space aliens with the shrinking ray?

If you have ever seen some gophers tunnels, you would have seen some little piles of dirt, and rocks, etc., which they push out from where the tunnel was dug.
Here is a story to be taken with a grain of salt, meant to illustrate that Gopher 'wood' may be stronger than we thought.--A long time ago, there used to be men who were skilled in many areas, such as farming, vineyards, and music. Gen 4:20 "And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle. 21 And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ. 22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: "
One day, one of the metalworkers made a strong substance from an idea he got looking at a gopher's pile of dirt. One simply took some natural resin and sand, coated a log, or almost anything one wanted, poured in the iron, or metal, and presto, when dry the formed metal log was now ready. My, I think I'll call this gopher wood, he thought, and the name stuck, in that pre flood ancient world. Imagine a boat built of this stuff? Or, perhaps the frame, hull etc where support was crucial, and maybe the outside finished with oak, or some wood, then everything sealed with pitch?!
Now, if it was anything at all like this, why, no wonder the poor guys translating the bible could not figure out what kind of 'wood' gopher wood was!
Have times changed? Oh, yes, but when we look, we see some things may be similar in some ways.
"What is the Sand Cast Process?
It is the process where moist bonded or resin coated sand is firmly packed around a wood or metal pattern of the item(s) to be made. The wood and/or metal pattern is then removed and the resulting cavity is filled with the molten metal. Once the cavity is filled the mold undergoes air drying. The mold(s) are then removed to be cut from the gate and runner as individual pieces. "
"
Most versatile & low-cost method of casting.
Strength and lightness in certain light metal alloys.
Good bearing qualities are obtained in sand casted metals.
Extremely large, heavy metal objects may be cast when they would be difficult or economically impossible to produce otherwise.
Suitable for Ferrous & Non-Ferrous materials void of limitations such as size, shape or weight.
Suitable for low or unlimited quantities making this method ideally economical.
The most intricate of shapes, both external and internal, may be cast. "
http://www.atlasbronze.com/sand_casting.html

Nope...the space aliens is a better explanation

The logical faults in this are so many its tough to even begin

First it is not the strength of any wood that limits the size of wooden boats it is the flexibility that is the problem. The larger a boat gets the more it flexes as it moves through water. The timbers of the boat are not the problem but rather the gaps between them. Sky scrapers have a similar problem in the fact that they twist and flex in the wind and as one goes up more interior bracing is needed to maintain structural integrity.

Lets look at the nonsense of bronze replacing wood. First off do you think there is a reason why boats were made out of wood until very recently? Any reason at all? Europe at the time of Columbus had advanced metal working capabilities…yet Chris set off for across the Atlantic in three tiny WOODEN boats. Metal weighs A LOT more than wood and worse it is not naturally buoyant. The bronze you trot out in your fantasy would have to not just hold the weight of the cargo but also its own weight. Bronze is a soft metal alloy; build a boat that size with it and the whole thing would collapse from its own weight before it is finished. Even if you get past that you run into a flexibility problems, bronze cast into sheets of the size you are pretending would not flex. This would mean that unlike wood which will flex as a boat passes through waves a metal plank boat would just rip itself open at the seams and head straight for the bottom of the ocean. Steel is used for modern boats but steel requires a massive infrastructure to make in any quantity

And none of this takes into account the raw materials we are talking about massive amounts of copper and tin. Copper and tin do not occur together naturally so one or the other would have to have been imported form a good distance away.

 

[Herman Hedning]

One day, one of the metalworkers made a strong substance from an idea he got looking at a gopher's pile of dirt. One simply took some natural resin and sand, coated a log, or almost anything one wanted, poured in the iron, or metal, and presto, when dry the formed metal log was now ready. My, I think I'll call this gopher wood, he thought, and the name stuck, in that pre flood ancient world. Imagine a boat built of this stuff? Or, perhaps the frame, hull etc where support was crucial, and maybe the outside finished with oak, or some wood, then everything sealed with pitch?!
Now, if it was anything at all like this, why, no wonder the poor guys translating the bible could not figure out what kind of 'wood' gopher wood was!

Hahaha! This is pure comedy gold! Say dad, are you going to publish your amazing theories any time soon? Maybe you could call the book "The Bible According to Dad". I bet it would be a best seller - at least I know I'd buy it.

Edit: On a slightly more serious note - "gopher wood" certainly has nothing to do with gophers. Note that it is called "goferträ" in the Swedish bible translation, even though the animal is "murmeldjur" in Swedish.

 

[Norseman]

I do accept mutation within species. I do not accept mutation as a cause of the various species. In that regard, I have no problem accepting that a variant of a species has become so specialized as to be environmentally specific. That does not mean that a tapeworm is not a tapeworm. The cause of ALL such mutations is a direct result of the FALL of Adam and hinges on satanic influence (Satan is still the Prince of this planet). He will remain such until he is removed from office by GOD.

Ok. But the fall happened before Noah, so what does that have to do with anything? Did malaria wait until it had left the Ark to become Malaria as we know it?

Oh, and to the OP, if you think about it, every disease in existance would have to have been on the Ark... It would be hard to explain how some animals/people managed to not get infected continuously down the chain such that everything alive would be infected today.

 

[Illuminatus]

Hahaha! This is pure comedy gold! Say dad, are you going to publish your amazing theories any time soon? Maybe you could call the book "The Bible According to Dad". I bet it would be a best seller - at least I know I'd buy it.

Edit: On a slightly more serious note - "gopher wood" certainly has nothing to do with gophers. Note that it is called "goferträ" in the Swedish bible translation, even though the animal is "murmeldjur" in Swedish.

Oh my. I have dad on my ignore list (I cut back on my drinking, and he seems far less humourous now), so I don't see his posts unless someone quotes them.

I may be mistaken, but is dad suggesting that Noah built a metal boat the size of a destroyer, and then camouflaged it with wood?

 

[LittleNipper]

Ok. But the fall happened before Noah, so what does that have to do with anything? Did malaria wait until it had left the Ark to become Malaria as we know it?

Oh, and to the OP, if you think about it, every disease in existance would have to have been on the Ark... It would be hard to explain how some animals/people managed to not get infected continuously down the chain such that everything alive would be infected today.

Actually, the likelyhood is that the organisms that now cause Malaria, had a different job to do. The question could be, what else is this organism capable of doing which might be a benifit to an ecological system? Every human is not a Hitler, but every human has that potential, presently speaking (after the fall).....

 

[TheBear]

Actually, the likelyhood is that the organisms that now cause Malaria, had a different job to do.

What????

More creative thinking to tie up any loose ends? What's next - the "likelyhood" of flying pigs?

 

[LittleNipper]

What????

More creative thinking to tie up any loose ends? What's next - the "likelyhood" of flying pigs?

Well, that is just the issue. You see these as merely loose ends. I see this as part of the TOTAL CREATION PICTURE that you have been educated not to ponder, see or even concern yourself with. As a result, all the data you look for, consider, and observe is not being processed but applied to the understanding of evolution as "CREATIVE" and not as corruption stemming from the FALL of man and separation from his CREATOR. Evolution ALONE suggests flying pigs because, along those lines, evolutionists believe that birds are related to pigs by some common ancestor somewhere and at sometime. I don't belive this-----you theoretically must.

 

[TheBear]

Well, that is just the issue. You see these as merely loose ends. I see this as part of the TOTAL CREATION PICTURE that you have been educated not to ponder, see or even concern yourself with.

You have no idea of who I am or of my education. Further, instead of making this a personal issue, how about just focus on the topic at hand.

You made the claim of the "likelyhood" of Malaria organisms functioning differently. I'd like you to expound on that a bit. I'm not going to let these remarks go unckecked. If you think that makes me a 'difficult' person, so be it. Welcome to the real world of scientific scrutiny. If it's too hot for you to handle, then get out of the kitchen. But as long as you stay here, be prepared to have everything you say, met with the same scrutiny as any other scientific hypothesis.

Now, explain this 'metamorphosis' of Malaria parasites.

 

[llDayo]

Well, that is just the issue. You see these as merely loose ends. I see this as part of the TOTAL CREATION PICTURE that you have been educated not to ponder, see or even concern yourself with. As a result, all the data you look for, consider, and observe is not being processed but applied to the understanding of evolution as "CREATIVE" and not as corruption stemming from the FALL of man and separation from his CREATOR. Evolution ALONE suggests flying pigs because, along those lines, evolutionists believe that birds are related to pigs by some common ancestor somewhere and at sometime. I don't belive this-----you theoretically must.

So basically, you start out with a belief and all data has to conform to that, whereas science starts out with nothing but data (puzzle pieces) and forms a theory (puzzle pieces put together) based on said data?

 

[LittleNipper]

So basically, you start out with a belief and all data has to conform to that, whereas science starts out with nothing but data (puzzle pieces) and forms a theory (puzzle pieces put together) based on said data?

Do you really believe this? If that were true, you'd have no opinion of Creationists in general-----you would simply hear each and reconsider their work in your own investigations. The fact is you do not want to consider their imput. I might add that "science" does not start out or form theories. Scientists do, and they are very human and they have their share of ideas (bias or not) that they wish to be noted for by their peers......

 

[LittleNipper]

You have no idea of who I am or of my education. Further, instead of making this a personal issue, how about just focus on the topic at hand.

You made the claim of the "likelyhood" of Malaria organisms functioning differently. I'd like you to expound on that a bit. I'm not going to let these remarks go unckecked. If you think that makes me a 'difficult' person, so be it. Welcome to the real world of scientific scrutiny. If it's too hot for you to handle, then get out of the kitchen. But as long as you stay here, be prepared to have everything you say, met with the same scrutiny as any other scientific hypothesis.

Now, explain this 'metamorphosis' of Malaria parasites.

So you bear your teeth and claws when you are not the one doing the jabbing...... My how the table must have turned. I do not consider your education unless it is applied fully. I have not seen that. If you are a scientist, let's say I've given you something to investigate. If you are not----perhaps you might at least consider the possibilities. If not----then you are as bias as you make me out to be in your own mind..

 

[TheBear]

So you bear your teeth and claws when you are not the one doing the jabbing...... My how the table must have turned. I do not consider your education unless it is applied fully. I have not seen that. If you are a scientist, let's say I've given you something to investigate. If you are not----perhaps you might at least consider the possibilities. If not----then you are as bias as you make me out to be in your own mind..

Nice dodge.

Let's not cloud the issue by continuing to make this personal.

You claimed the "likelyhood" that Malaria organisms had a "different job to do". Explain that in detail. Thanks.

 

[llDayo]

Do you really believe this? If that were true, you'd have no opinion of Creationists in general-----you would simply hear each and reconsider their work in your own investigations. The fact is you do not want to consider their imput.

You can't consider input on something that's not testable, it's as simple as that. Science only deals with what is testable.

I might add that "science" does not start out or form theories. Scientists do, and they are very human and they have their share of ideas (bias or not) that they wish to be noted for by their peers......

You understood what I meant and that's all that matters. Maybe creationists should enlist some actual scientists who can show them exactly what they're doing wrong in their "research".

Now if you'll excuse me, me, Science, and Geology are going to hit a bar.

 

[OdwinOddball]

Do you really believe this? If that were true, you'd have no opinion of Creationists in general-----you would simply hear each and reconsider their work in your own investigations. The fact is you do not want to consider their imput. I might add that "science" does not start out or form theories. Scientists do, and they are very human and they have their share of ideas (bias or not) that they wish to be noted for by their peers......

The reason why scientists do not accept the claims of creationists, etc as worth investigation is very simple, and very valid. You provide absolutely NO evidence to support your claims. You merely have assertions, and a book that has beet rebutted so often that an entire branch of scholarship(Apologetics) has developed to defend the abundant contradictions and flat out fallacies contained in it.

You ask us to believe in invisible pink unicorns, and expect us to somehow take you seriously when you have nothing to present but personal, internal experience. Why should any scientist take time away from their research to investigate subjects that are based on non testable conjecture? The only reason ever given is that of "God", yet no evidence is ever provided to even establish the existance of this diety upon whcihj your conjecture is based.

You're even doing it right now with The Bear. All you offer is yet another conjecture, with no documented evidence to back it up. And you expect him to investigate this? Why in the world would he bother, especially considering the source?

You make the same mistake that creationists, and those of religious conviction often make. You base all your ideas, your entire world view on the premise that god exists. Fail to provide any evidence to back up such a claim, and then expect us to just ignore that one minor detail and consider all your other ideas. Every single one of which is meaningless unless there actually is a god.

No. It doesn't work that way in science. Untill you can get that through your thick skull you will continue to make zero progress in this forum, and will continue to be considered by most as just another crackpot fundamentalist.

 

[dad]

Monkey wood is not made form monkeys.
Green monkeys aren’t green
Lunar moths don’t come form the moon
None of this changes what the bible says…and it says…gopher wood…not metal.

You don't know what you are talking about. We do not know what it was. No one does, unless God told them or something. The record of that thing, or process from before the flood is gone. There are a few things that lead to the conclusion that the casting process is as good an idea as any. It is related to gophers in a way none of the trees are. It also involved wood, and a biblically recorded and documented working with metal. In addition to this, the reason many have picked a certain wood for their guess as to what it was is what kind of wood is plentiful, or even found where they think the ark was built. Again, they have no idea where that really was, or what kind of trees grew there then!

If there was a big iron deposit nearby, they would have been able to slap an ark together quickly, and cheaply, relatively speaking. So don't tell us what it was a wasn't, you have no idea. We do have the bible, and I work with that known quantity.

Will it be as internally consistent as the friendly space aliens with the shrinking ray?

That is not bible, or science, stack it up with granny, and the speck, and PO past, not with the big boys of science and bible!

Lets look at the nonsense of bronze replacing wood.

That must be your fantasy, I never heard of it. I said metal, not bronze.

Ge 4:22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah.
See, they worked with metal. Who knows the processes and mixes and whatnot they had, maybe better than our stuff?

. Bronze is a soft metal alloy; build a boat that size with it and the whole thing would collapse from its own weight before it is finished. Even if you get past that you run into a flexibility problems, bronze cast into sheets of the size you are pretending would not flex. This would mean that unlike wood which will flex as a boat passes through waves a metal plank boat would just rip itself open at the seams and head straight for the bottom of the ocean. Steel is used for modern boats but steel requires a massive infrastructure to make in any quantity

And none of this takes into account the raw materials we are talking about massive amounts of copper and tin. Copper and tin do not occur together naturally so one or the other would have to have been imported form a good distance away.

So you doubt the ability of the artificers of the time, which, added with the directions of God you think could not have made a strong metal?
Even in recorded early history we see strong metal, like this one with plastic qualities.


"Studies on Wootz indicate that it was an ultra-high carbon steel with between 1-2% carbon and was believed to have been used to fashion Damascus blades with a watered steel pattern (Srinivasan and Griffiths 1997). Experimental reconstructions by Wadsworth and Sherby in the 1980’s have demonstrated that ultra-high carbon steels with about 1.5% C can be used to simulate ‘Damascus’ blades and that these exhibit fascinating superplastic properties. Superplasticity is a remarkable phenomenon which allows a material to change its external shape to a very great extent without changing within. "
http://www.metalrg.iisc.ernet.in/heritage.html

Now, with the pre split world and different carbon levels, etc. who knows? How hot did fire burn, even, for example in that atmosphere pre flood? I think it is presumptuous to assume their abilities at metal making were lacking, or the same as post flood history! It could very well have been the way God told Noah to have the ark constructed, this gopher wood process.
Do you think He would have ordered it to be metal if they were unable to make good stuff? Ridiculous. Try to refrain from fantasy here, this is a science forum!