No true scotsman

[South Bound]

I have a problem with the "No true scotsman" fallacy. For those of you who are unfamiliar with the term - it refers to a fallacy wherein the object of debate is defined to suit the needs of the individual making the argument.



The problem I see is that it can be used ad absurdum both to discredit entire groups or to shift blame.
An example would be: "Christians don't kill homosexuales - those that do aren't real Christians" or "Muslims aren't terrorists - those that kill are no true Muslims!"
While I would even go so far as to agree with both statements, that is beside the point. The problem that I am seeing is that you can accuse both of this fallacy even though the statements seem valid.

Is there a logical "rule" as to how to apply this rule stringently?

The dictionary defines a Scotsman as "a resident or native of Scotland". Therefore, if one is not a resident or native of Scotland, they are, by definition, NOT a true Scotsman.

In the same way, if one does not meet the definition of a Christian, as laid out in scripture, they are, by definition, NOT a Christian.

So, yes, it is perfectly logical to say that a true Christian would not kill a homosexual.

((Note to Hammster: By saying "NOT a Christian", I am not referring to Catholics or any other individual or group, merely pointing out the logical truth that a thing must meet the definition of the thing it claims to be in order to be that thing.))

 

[Cearbhall]

So, yes, it is perfectly logical to say that a true Christian would not kill a homosexual.

It's perfectly understandable that a Christian would want to attach additional meaning to the word, but as an atheist, my definition of a Christian is someone who identifies as a Christian. Even if the person's actions go against what appears to be the fundamental message of the religion, I'm interested in what Christians do, not whether they're living up to an ancient text, because to me, it's just a man-made philosophical movement.

 

[JGG]

I object.

Being a chreistian is defined by Christ, in the bible. The Nicene creed defines catholicism, not christianity. The two overlap to the extent that they do.... some believe the nicene creed is 100% biblical and thus defines christianity. Others interpret the bible very differently.

I have never read about the nicene creed in The Bible.

So you both disagree with the Nicene Creed?

 

[South Bound]

<staff edit>
Scripture lists four criteria by which we can know that one is a Christian:

1. Their testimony
2. Their doctrine
3. Their fruit
4. Their sanctification

Atheists just ignore this and say that anybody who calls themselves a Christian must be a Christian, in spite of the fact that they don't have a Biblical testimony, don't hold to Biblical doctrine, don't show fruit consistent with that of a Christian, and aren't showing any signs of sanctification.

I often wonder if atheists apply this to other areas, as well. "Well, he said he was a doctor going door to door doing free colonoscopies, so I just figured, if he said he's a doctor, he must be a doctor."

 

[JGG]

Scripture lists four criteria by which we can know that one is a Christian:

1. Their testimony
2. Their doctrine
3. Their fruit
4. Their sanctification

Atheists just ignore this and say that anybody who calls themselves a Christian must be a Christian, in spite of the fact that they don't have a Biblical testimony, don't hold to Biblical doctrine, don't show fruit consistent with that of a Christian, and aren't showing any signs of sanctification.

That's not entirely what I meant. Could you strictly define each one so there is no doubt what each refers to. Their testimony is exactly what? Their doctrine is exactly what? Their fruit is exactly what? Their sanctification is exactly what?

I often wonder if atheists apply this to other areas, as well. "Well, he said he was a doctor going door to door doing free colonoscopies, so I just figured, if he said he's a doctor, he must be a doctor."

Well, a doctor would have to show that they have an undergraduate four year BS or BA degree (preferably in a science like biology or chemistry). Then they must demonstrate that they have finished a medical program at a LCME accredited medical school to obtain their M.D. (since we're talking about a colonoscopy, I assume we mean a physician), with an average grade of around 90%. Now with that they can be called a doctor, but must show that they have finished a residency program, completed and passed the USMLE, done a fellowship program, and gotten licensed by the state medical board, before I even consider letting them through my door.

At least in the states.

 

[South Bound]

That's not entirely what I meant. Could you strictly define each one so there is no doubt what each refers to. Their testimony is exactly what? Their doctrine is exactly what? Their fruit is exactly what? Their sanctification is exactly what?

Sure.

Testimony: an acknowledgement of one's sinfulness and enmity with God, an acknowledgment of one's lost and hopeless state without Christ, an understanding of the exclusivity of, and man's reliance on, Christ's vicarious atonement on the cross for the forgiveness of sins, repentance of sin, submission to the Lordship of Christ.

Doctrine:

1.The Deity of Christ A.Jesus is God in flesh (John 8:58 with Exodus 3:14). See also John 1:1, 14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8 i.1 John 4:2-3: "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world." a.The above verse needs to be cross-referenced with John 1:1, 14 (also written by John) where he states that the Word was God and the Word became flesh.
b.1 John 4:2-3 is saying that if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh, then you are of the spirit of Antichrist.

ii.John 8:24, "I said, therefore, to you, that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
iii.Jesus said that if you do not believe "that I am," you will die in your sins. In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means ‘I am.' These are the same words used in John 8:58, where Jesus says " . . . before Abraham was, I am." He was claiming the divine title by quoting Exodus 3:14. a.The Greek Septuagint is the Hebrew Old Testament translated into Greek and done by Jews around 250 B.C. They translated Exodus 3:14 as 'ego eimi' "I AM").


B.Jesus is the proper object of faith i.It is not simply enough to have faith. Faith is only as valid as the person in whom you put it. You must put your faith in the proper person. Cults have false objects of faith (false gods); therefore, their faith is useless--no matter how sincere they are.
ii.If you put your faith in a guru, a philosopher, or a past teacher (and not Jesus) to save you from your sins on Judgment Day, then you will be in a lot of trouble no matter how sincere or strong your faith is. You might have great faith but so what? Faith in something false has the same effect as no faith at all.

C.The Doctrine of the deity of Christ includes: i.The Trinity--There is one God who exists in three persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are all coeternal and of the same nature.
ii.Monotheism--There is only one God in all existence (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6, 8; 45:5, 14, 18, 21, 22; 46:9; 47:8). Mormons believe that many gods exist though they serve and worship only one. Therefore, they are polytheists which excludes them from the camp of Christianity.

D.The Hypostatic Union--That Jesus is both God and man. i.The sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ--The sacrifice of Christ is completely sufficient to pay for the sins of the world, and it is only through Jesus' sacrifice that anyone can be saved.
ii.As God--Only a perfect sacrifice to God is able to cleanse us from our sins. This is why Jesus, who is God in flesh, died for us. a.He had to die for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). Only God could do that.

iii.As man--Jesus must be man to be able to be a sacrifice for man. a.As a man, He can be the mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5).


E.This means that the Jehovah's Witnesses, The Way International, Islam, etc., are outside of Christianity.

2.Salvation by Grace A."For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast." (Eph. 2:8-9, NIV).
B."You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." (Gal. 5:4). i.This verse and its context plainly teach that if you believe that you are saved by faith and works, then you are not saved at all. This is a common error in the cults. Because they have a false Jesus, they have a false doctrine of salvation. (Read Rom. 3-5 and Gal. 3-5).
ii.You cannot add to the work of God. Gal. 2:21 says, "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" (NIV)

C."Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." (Rom. 3:20). i."However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness," (Rom. 4:5).
ii."Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law." (Gal. 3:21).

D.Salvation is not universal resurrection as Mormonism would declare. Rather, it is the saving from God's righteous judgment. Furthermore, salvation, which is the forgiveness of sins, is accomplished by faith alone (Rom. 4:1-11).
E.Roman Catholicism denies salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ alone. Therefore, Roman Catholicism is outside of Christianity.

3.The Resurrection of Christ A."And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith." (1 Cor. 15:14). "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins." (1 Cor. 15:17).
B.To deny the physical resurrection is to deny that Jesus' work was a satisfactory offering to God the Father. It would mean that Jesus was corrupt and needed to stay in the grave. But, he did not stay because his sacrifice was perfect.
C.These verses clearly state that if you say that Jesus did not rise from the dead (in the same body He died in--John 2:19-21), then your faith is useless.
D.The Jehovah's Witnesses and the Muslims deny Jesus' physical resurrection. Therefore, they are outside of Christianity.

4.The Gospel A."But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!" (Gal. 1:8-9, NIV). i.Verses 8 and 9 here in Galatians are a self-declarative statement that you must believe the gospel. The gospel message which in its entirety is that Jesus is God in flesh, who died for sins, rose from the dead, and freely gives the gift of eternal life to those who believe.
ii.Furthermore, it would not be possible to present the gospel properly without declaring that Jesus is God in flesh per John 1:1, 14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8.

B.1 Cor. 15:1-4 defines what the gospel is: "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures," (NIV). i.Within these verses are the essentials: Christ is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9); Salvation is received by faith (John 1:12; Rom. 10:9-10); therefore it is by grace; and the resurrection is mentioned in verse 4. Therefore, this gospel message automatically includes the essentials.


5.Monotheism A.There is only one God (Exodus 20:3; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6, 8)
B.“You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments." (Exodus 20:3-6). i.We can see that God will visit iniquity on the descendents of those who do not follow the true and living God.

C.Mormonism, for example, is not monotheistic. Mormonism teaches that there are many gods but only one is worshipped. Therefore, Mormonism is outside of Christianity.


Secondary Essentials

Secondary essentials are necessary truths, but there is no self-declared penalty for their denial--yet they are still essential to the Christian faith. Again, by way of example, Jesus says that he is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father but by him. (John 14:6). I call this a secondary essential because there's no penalty associated with its denial. Nevertheless, it is a statement of absolute truth and is an essential Christian teaching that cannot be denied.
1.Jesus is the only way to salvation A."Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.'" (John 14:6) i.Jesus declared that he was the only access to God the Father. To deny this is to deny what Jesus said.


2.Jesus' Virgin Birth A.“'Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,' which translated means, 'God with us.'” (Matt. 1:23). i.Without the virgin birth, we cannot substantiate the doctrine of the incarnation of Jesus being God in flesh. This would put at risk what Jesus said above in John 8:24 where he said, "I said, therefore, to you, that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins."


3.Doctrine of the Trinity A.Matt. 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit," (see also, Matt. 3:16-17; 1 Cor. 12:4-6; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6).
B.This doctrine is not represented by a single verse per se though it is hinted at. The doctrine of the Trinity is arrived at systematically by looking at the totality of Scripture. It is, nevertheless, the proper representation of scriptural revelation concerning the nature of God.
C.The Trinity is denied by Mormonism, the Jehovah's Witnesses, Islam, The Way International, etc.

Essential Doctrines of Christianity | Doctrines essential to Christian faith | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Although I disagree with the designation of some doctrines as "secondary", it is, nonetheless, a fairly comprehensive list of those doctrines required to be a Christian.

Fruit would include those things listed as fruits of the Spirit, growing in holiness and in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, a love for the brethren, warring against sin, etc.

For the purposes of this conversation, since I don't believe you're sincere about learning what it is we believe, a short definition of sanctification would be good fruit observed over a period of time.

Well, a doctor would have to show...

Why would he have to show something? Wouldn't his declaration that he's a doctor be enough?

 

[JGG]

Sure.

Testimony: an acknowledgement of one's sinfulness and enmity with God, an acknowledgment of one's lost and hopeless state without Christ, an understanding of the exclusivity of, and man's reliance on, Christ's vicarious atonement on the cross for the forgiveness of sins, repentance of sin, submission to the Lordship of Christ.

Doctrine:

1.The Deity of Christ A.Jesus is God in flesh (John 8:58 with Exodus 3:14). See also John 1:1, 14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8 i.1 John 4:2-3: "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world." a.The above verse needs to be cross-referenced with John 1:1, 14 (also written by John) where he states that the Word was God and the Word became flesh.
b.1 John 4:2-3 is saying that if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh, then you are of the spirit of Antichrist.

ii.John 8:24, "I said, therefore, to you, that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
iii.Jesus said that if you do not believe "that I am," you will die in your sins. In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means &#8216;I am.' These are the same words used in John 8:58, where Jesus says " . . . before Abraham was, I am." He was claiming the divine title by quoting Exodus 3:14. a.The Greek Septuagint is the Hebrew Old Testament translated into Greek and done by Jews around 250 B.C. They translated Exodus 3:14 as 'ego eimi' "I AM").


B.Jesus is the proper object of faith i.It is not simply enough to have faith. Faith is only as valid as the person in whom you put it. You must put your faith in the proper person. Cults have false objects of faith (false gods); therefore, their faith is useless--no matter how sincere they are.
ii.If you put your faith in a guru, a philosopher, or a past teacher (and not Jesus) to save you from your sins on Judgment Day, then you will be in a lot of trouble no matter how sincere or strong your faith is. You might have great faith but so what? Faith in something false has the same effect as no faith at all.

C.The Doctrine of the deity of Christ includes: i.The Trinity--There is one God who exists in three persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are all coeternal and of the same nature.
ii.Monotheism--There is only one God in all existence (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6, 8; 45:5, 14, 18, 21, 22; 46:9; 47:8). Mormons believe that many gods exist though they serve and worship only one. Therefore, they are polytheists which excludes them from the camp of Christianity.

D.The Hypostatic Union--That Jesus is both God and man. i.The sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ--The sacrifice of Christ is completely sufficient to pay for the sins of the world, and it is only through Jesus' sacrifice that anyone can be saved.
ii.As God--Only a perfect sacrifice to God is able to cleanse us from our sins. This is why Jesus, who is God in flesh, died for us. a.He had to die for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). Only God could do that.

iii.As man--Jesus must be man to be able to be a sacrifice for man. a.As a man, He can be the mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5).


E.This means that the Jehovah's Witnesses, The Way International, Islam, etc., are outside of Christianity.

2.Salvation by Grace A."For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast." (Eph. 2:8-9, NIV).
B."You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." (Gal. 5:4). i.This verse and its context plainly teach that if you believe that you are saved by faith and works, then you are not saved at all. This is a common error in the cults. Because they have a false Jesus, they have a false doctrine of salvation. (Read Rom. 3-5 and Gal. 3-5).
ii.You cannot add to the work of God. Gal. 2:21 says, "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" (NIV)

C."Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." (Rom. 3:20). i."However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness," (Rom. 4:5).
ii."Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law." (Gal. 3:21).

D.Salvation is not universal resurrection as Mormonism would declare. Rather, it is the saving from God's righteous judgment. Furthermore, salvation, which is the forgiveness of sins, is accomplished by faith alone (Rom. 4:1-11).
E.Roman Catholicism denies salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ alone. Therefore, Roman Catholicism is outside of Christianity.

3.The Resurrection of Christ A."And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith." (1 Cor. 15:14). "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins." (1 Cor. 15:17).
B.To deny the physical resurrection is to deny that Jesus' work was a satisfactory offering to God the Father. It would mean that Jesus was corrupt and needed to stay in the grave. But, he did not stay because his sacrifice was perfect.
C.These verses clearly state that if you say that Jesus did not rise from the dead (in the same body He died in--John 2:19-21), then your faith is useless.
D.The Jehovah's Witnesses and the Muslims deny Jesus' physical resurrection. Therefore, they are outside of Christianity.

4.The Gospel A."But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!" (Gal. 1:8-9, NIV). i.Verses 8 and 9 here in Galatians are a self-declarative statement that you must believe the gospel. The gospel message which in its entirety is that Jesus is God in flesh, who died for sins, rose from the dead, and freely gives the gift of eternal life to those who believe.
ii.Furthermore, it would not be possible to present the gospel properly without declaring that Jesus is God in flesh per John 1:1, 14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8.

B.1 Cor. 15:1-4 defines what the gospel is: "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures," (NIV). i.Within these verses are the essentials: Christ is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9); Salvation is received by faith (John 1:12; Rom. 10:9-10); therefore it is by grace; and the resurrection is mentioned in verse 4. Therefore, this gospel message automatically includes the essentials.


5.Monotheism A.There is only one God (Exodus 20:3; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6, 8)
B.&#8220;You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments." (Exodus 20:3-6). i.We can see that God will visit iniquity on the descendents of those who do not follow the true and living God.

C.Mormonism, for example, is not monotheistic. Mormonism teaches that there are many gods but only one is worshipped. Therefore, Mormonism is outside of Christianity.


Secondary Essentials

Secondary essentials are necessary truths, but there is no self-declared penalty for their denial--yet they are still essential to the Christian faith. Again, by way of example, Jesus says that he is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father but by him. (John 14:6). I call this a secondary essential because there's no penalty associated with its denial. Nevertheless, it is a statement of absolute truth and is an essential Christian teaching that cannot be denied.
1.Jesus is the only way to salvation A."Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.'" (John 14:6) i.Jesus declared that he was the only access to God the Father. To deny this is to deny what Jesus said.


2.Jesus' Virgin Birth A.&#8220;'Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,' which translated means, 'God with us.'&#8221; (Matt. 1:23). i.Without the virgin birth, we cannot substantiate the doctrine of the incarnation of Jesus being God in flesh. This would put at risk what Jesus said above in John 8:24 where he said, "I said, therefore, to you, that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins."


3.Doctrine of the Trinity A.Matt. 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit," (see also, Matt. 3:16-17; 1 Cor. 12:4-6; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6).
B.This doctrine is not represented by a single verse per se though it is hinted at. The doctrine of the Trinity is arrived at systematically by looking at the totality of Scripture. It is, nevertheless, the proper representation of scriptural revelation concerning the nature of God.
C.The Trinity is denied by Mormonism, the Jehovah's Witnesses, Islam, The Way International, etc.

Essential Doctrines of Christianity | Doctrines essential to Christian faith | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Great. Where in that does it say that someone who kills a homosexual is not a Christian? In fact, I want to point to Salvation through Grace: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast."

It's not what you do, but what you believe, right? We can't really know what someone believes. So if someone says they believe, how can we say otherwise? Through their actions? Faith not works.

Although I disagree with the designation of some doctrines as "secondary", it is, nonetheless, a fairly comprehensive list of those doctrines required to be a Christian.

Fruit would include those things listed as fruits of the Spirit, growing in holiness and in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, a love for the brethren, warring against sin, etc.

Could you define spirit, holiness, grace, and how we would definitively know that they are growing in holiness, and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. How do we know that someone has repented? How does one show love for brethren? How does one actually war against sin?

These operational definitions are pretty open for interpretation. Could we close that up so there can be no debate?

For the purposes of this conversation, since I don't believe you're sincere about learning what it is we believe, a short definition of sanctification would be good fruit observed over a period of time.

Yeah, but we have a pretty sub par definition of fruit at the moment. I mean, how does one observe "fruit?

 

[Cearbhall]

Except that it's not "additional". It is the authoritative definition.

The only thing you all agree on is that Jesus was divine. If I listen to you, I have to listen to everyone, and if I listened to everyone who says "He/she isn't a real Christian," there wouldn't be any Christians left to study.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

.

 

[Cearbhall]

<staff edit>

How dare an atheist have atheist beliefs! A man said certain things and other men wrote it down generations later in ways that fit their own agendas. Other people have been picking and choosing since then. It's all Christianity. I don't see how you could call this arrogance. It has nothing to do with my self-perception. It's just history to me.

And no, I don't think I have the authority to do that. I think I made it pretty clear that I'm giving that power to other people. That's the whole point. I respect labels. You're the one who wants to decide who gets to identify as a Christian.

 

[South Bound]

How dare an atheist have atheist beliefs!

Atheists are entitled to their own beliefs, but not their own facts.

If something has a definition, they can't just claim something that does not meet that definition is that thing, just because they decide it should be.

A man said certain things and other men wrote it down generations later in ways that fit their own agendas. Other people have been picking and choosing since then. It's all Christianity.

Actually, that's not Christianity at all. If you don't even know how the books of the Bible were written and compiled in the Bible, then what makes you a greater authority than Jesus Christ to determine who are and who are not His followers?

I don't see how you could call this arrogance.

It's arrogant because it claims that Jesus Christ, the founder and head of Christianity does not have the authority to define His followers, but that atheists do, based on nothing but their own political expediency.

It has nothing to do with my self-perception. It's just history to me.

Actually, it's not history at all.

You're the one who wants to decide who gets to identify as a Christian.

Yeah, this is a good example of the childishness we see from atheists.

I love the way you try to poison the well by claiming that I'm the one who "wants to decide who gets to identify as Christian", even after I've stated time and time again that it is not you, nor me, but Christ, speaking through His Word, who decides.

 

[Loudmouth]

Actually, that's not Christianity at all. If you don't even know how the books of the Bible were written and compiled in the Bible, then what makes you a greater authority than Jesus Christ to determine who are and who are not His followers?

If you understood the history of the church, you would know that none of the gospels or any of the books in the NT were written by Jesus, and that christianity was first defined by the Council of Nicea in the 5th century.

 

[lesliedellow]

If you understood the history of the church, you would know that none of the gospels or any of the books in the NT were written by Jesus, and that christianity was first defined by the Council of Nicea in the 5th century.

Leaving aside the fact that the Council of Nicea was in the fourth century, it was called primarily to settle a row which had broken out over the doctrine of the Trinity. Neither Christianity nor the Trinity were "defined" there - except in the sense of one conception of the Trinity winning out over another.

 

[quatona]

But it isn't about your definition. It's about Christ's definition.

Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I know the term "Christian" doesn´t show up anywhere in the bible.

 

[keith99]

Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I know the term "Christian" doesn´t show up anywhere in the bible.

My understanding is that the earliest versions that more or less translate that way were insults hurled at the followers of Jesus. That it meant 'Little Christs'.

In that vein I'd agree any who does evil fails of the title. Meaning pretty much everyone fails to be entitled to be called Christian, either as a compliment or an insult.

However in modern usage Christian refers only to a rather large blanket of who one follows and exactly what the consider the position of that individual.

Sadly I cannot honestly say self identification is adequate as it seems many call themselves Christian and deny the divinity of Christ. That does seem to hit the core of the definition.

 

[Loudmouth]

Leaving aside the fact that the Council of Nicea was in the fourth century, . . .

I call it creeping addition as caused by the approach of middle age. It starts in my head as the 300's, which is the 4th century, which then morphs into the 400's in my head, and thus the creeping addition that gets us to the 5th century.

it was called primarily to settle a row which had broken out over the doctrine of the Trinity.

Not only that, but the formal list of official Christian cannon which excludes gospels, and includes letters attributed to Paul that were probably not written by Paul. The council also sought to create a more universal creed that would tie in a number christian creeds already in existence.

 

[South Bound]

If you understood the history of the church, you would know that none of the gospels or any of the books in the NT were written by Jesus, and that christianity was first defined by the Council of Nicea in the 5th century.

OK. A couple of things:

First, I never said Jesus wrote the Gospels or any of the books of the New Testament. So, if you're going to criticize my posts, please be honest enough to criticize what I actually said and not what you falsely attribute to me. Not only are straw man arguments a logical fallacy, they're also dishonest and childish.

Second, I'm a SBTS trained teaching elder who just happens to teach Church History (along with OT Survey I&II, Christian Biography, and an examination of the role of Christianity in America and Western thought called God Shed His Grace on Thee. I also teach a new believers' class as needed.)

So why don't you put your "if you understood the history of the church" bravado where your mouth is, please feel free to contact the moderators to debate me in ChristianForums' formal debate forum. I'll be more than happy to climb into the ring with you.

Third, where on Earth did you hear that Christianity was not defined until Nicea? For that matter, where did you hear that Nicea defined Christianity at all

And, finally, do you have any idea at all just how ridiculous you look when you impugn somebody else's understanding of church history, but then turn around and say that Nicea took place in the 5th century? You might want to work on that for next time.

Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I know the term "Christian" doesn´t show up anywhere in the bible.

Acts 11:26. Please crack open a Bible once in a while before you criticize it.

 

[lesliedellow]

I call it creeping addition as caused by the approach of middle age. It starts in my head as the 300's, which is the 4th century, which then morphs into the 400's in my head, and thus the creeping addition that gets us to the 5th century.



Not only that, but the formal list of official Christian cannon which excludes gospels, and includes letters attributed to Paul that were probably not written by Paul. The council also sought to create a more universal creed that would tie in a number christian creeds already in existence.

The canon was not discussed at Nicea, the date of Easter was, and the Nicene Creed represents the peace treaty which was signed (literally) by the two warring factions.

I have lost count of the number of times I have heard atheists claim that the canon was drawn up at Nicea. There were two councils in 393 and 397 when it was discussed, but at Nicea it was not touched upon.

 

[quatona]

Acts 11:26. Please crack open a Bible once in a while before you criticize it.

Firstly, thanks for correcting me - that´s exactly what I asked for.
Secondly, I have cracked open the bible more than once, and I have even read the whole thing. Doesn´t mean I recall every single first from the top of my head. That´s why I made all those qualifiers.
Thirdly, I haven´t criticized the bible.
Fourthly, ok, "The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch". How exactly does that help with discerning who is a TrueChristian today?

 

[Cearbhall]

When atheists believe they can just run about redefining words as they like, it's time to stop listening to atheists.

I don't expect you to listen to me and accept my definition. You're a Christian, and with that comes certain beliefs. Beliefs that I respect. I only ask that you not expect me to adopt a Christian view of the religion.

If something has a definition, they can't just claim something that does not meet that definition is that thing, just because they decide it should be.

If the gospels were an autobiography or a manifesto, it'd be a different story. They're just a collection of what early members of Christian communities wanted to say. Being an atheist means that I don't believe in their infallibility or divine inspiration.