No Time, No Age.

expos4ever · Jan 20, 2016

ScottA said:
I would say that most people's perception of "reality" does not take into account that Time is of the world, and the kingdom of God is not. With the world being "created" and "passing away", I do not consider the world to be anything more than its purpose to God.

This business of the kingdom of God being "not of this world" is, I suggest, based on a translation problem.

In John 18:36, In verse 36, Jesus seems to be saying "My kingdom does include this present material world of space, time, and matter".

As it turns out, there is a huge translation issue here. Here is the rendering of verse 36 as per the NET Bible:

Jesus replied, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my servants would be fighting to keep me from being 1 handed over 2 to the Jewish authorities. 3 But as it is, 4 my kingdom is not from here.

The NET version is, my sources indicate, true to the original Greek. The greek word that is rendered “from” (above in the bolded and underlined cases) has the following definition:

“a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote)”

When the word is used properly, we see that the “not of this world” reading is misleading. The intended meaning is that the Kingdom that has been brought to earth is from Heaven - that is, Heaven is the point of origin for the Kingdom that has been initiated.

expos4ever · Jan 20, 2016

ScottA said:
The point is that actual reality lies with the Creator, and not with a created object that is passing away.

This idea that our universe is "passing away" is, I suggest, unbiblical. Yes, there is that text in Peter that seems to suggest this; I will deal with that text later.

For the moment, I will claim that there are many texts that suggest the world will not pass away, it will instead be rescued, redeemed, and transformed. In Romans 8, Paul writes of creation being "set free from decay". This suggests that creation will not be destroyed, but rather restored.

expos4ever · Jan 20, 2016

ScottA said:
Einstein.

Doubt it. I would wager that Einstein means that time, while very much real, is not static and immutable as had generally been believed for millennia till He came up with his theory of relativity.

ScottA · Jan 20, 2016

Davian said:
The OP seems imply that there is some sort of consensus ("...science cannot agree...") to this issue with time, yet when I read this article I see that it says that what it refers to "is the most radical of all solutions". Your link undermines the OP.

Did you actually read these articles or did you simply cut and paste the titles from Google?

You have missed the point. It doesn't matter what the articles say, it simply shows the scientific community in debate, being unsure and unqualified to make factual statements about Time.

ScottA · Jan 20, 2016

Hieronymus said:
But a story moves along a timespan, which is a part of the timeline.

That is a great point, one that should be taken to heart. It is an example of how time can be a factor (a fact) "within" the context of a story, without being the only reality...no different than an autobiography of someone's entire life being told in a 2 hour movie. If we can be big enough to imagine getting outside of our own little world to consider things from God's perspective...the world looks completely different.

ScottA · Jan 20, 2016

durangodawood said:
There must be a thousand places in the Bible that reference time, or require time to make sense.
Seems pretty adventurous for a Christian to deny time.

Unless you can see it for what it is.

Time is a simple media for telling a story. History, is His story. And a story can have a timeline and a context all its own...but it is a completely more ridiculous notion to think that being within the pages of a story comes with all the clocks outside the story being set according to the story! Do we all set down to a movie and re-set our watches? That's ridiculous. It's a classic example of people thinking the world evolves around them...and nothing more!

durangodawood · Jan 20, 2016

ScottA said:
Unless you can see it for what it is.

Time is a simple media for telling a story. History, is His story. And a story can have a timeline and a context all its own...but it is a completely more ridiculous notion to think that being within the pages of a story comes with all the clocks outside the story being set according to the story! Do we all set down to a movie and re-set our watches? That's ridiculous. It's a classic example of people thinking the world evolves around them...and nothing more!

So when the Bible talks about time and events occurring over time, its more like a story than a real thing that actually happened?

ScottA · Jan 20, 2016

AlexDTX said:
I see I am responding early in the dialogue, so if what I say is repeating someone else, forgive me. I concur that God is the first reality, but to think that the creation and time are illusory misunderstands the power of God. This sounds like you assume that we are all nothing more than his imagination. But the power of God is to give life that is separate from Him and to create a creation that is separate from Him that exists in reality.

God created time as part of the creation. Genesis 1 says that the stars, sun and moon were created for times and seasons. I believe that even though Christ was foreordained to be crucified before the foundation of the world, God did not know if Christ had to be crucified. There is a reason that the Bible also says that Christ was crucified from the foundation of the world. In other words, until the actual choice of Adam and Eve was made in the garden, God did not know if the crucifixion had to happen. Once that choice was made in reality, then He knew Christ had to die.

I believe this is another reason Christians tend to be passive in their walks with Christ. They assume that since God knows everything, then he has everything foreordained in their lives. This is not true. God knows every possibility, but he does not know our ultimate choices until we actually make them.

Time and creation are reality, not an illusion.

It is very human to consider things in the way that you have described. But, that is only because we have trouble coming to grips with the reality that "created" by definition means "made up" at worst, and "manifest" at best. And that "in His image" could very well mean, "imagination": צֶלֶםtselem, tseh'-lem; from an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, i.e. (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence, a representative figure, especially an idol:—image, vain shew. ... There's that word "illusion." [Einstein]

So...if we are going to talk about reality...we really need to start over, and not lean on our own understanding.

expos4ever · Jan 20, 2016

ScottA said:
Time is a simple media for telling a story.

While I have not read every post, I certainly would challenge this view. I am quite confident that there is widespread consensus among relevant experts (physicist, philosophers?) that time is not just what you suggest. Yes, clearly, a "story" embodies its own timeline but I suspect no qualified expert denies the reality of time in the "real" world in which you and I live.

ScottA said:
And a story can have a timeline and a context all its own...

Agree, but this does not mean that there is not a real "thing" we call time that comprises a critical component of our description of reality.

ScottA · Jan 20, 2016

Larnievc said:
So you did not do the maths.

In fact you lied about doing the maths.

No, it was taken out of context. And now you have done the same thing. Get real.

expos4ever · Jan 20, 2016

ScottA said:
But, I did not mean to suggest that time does not exist, but rather that it is a created media "like" the times told in a created story. Also, that it is a mere would-be fact with in the fiction of the created story.

I think I understand what you are saying but I think your view is at odds with the broad consensus of experts. Consider this please: When experiments began to show that clocks run slower in stronger gravitational fields and at higher speeds relative to lower ones, this comprises powerful evidence that time is "indeed" real; there is no one "creating time" as some sort of "would-be" fact. We run experiments and nature reveals herself: time is a real feature of our world that happens to be elastic relative to local physical conditions.

Perhaps I do not fully understand your view, but based on what I have inferred to this point, your view is extremely unusual and at odds with the broad consensus among "experts" that time is "real", even though it is subtle and mysterious.

ScottA · Jan 20, 2016

expos4ever said:
This business of the kingdom of God being "not of this world" is, I suggest, based on a translation problem.

In John 18:36, In verse 36, Jesus seems to be saying "My kingdom does include this present material world of space, time, and matter".

As it turns out, there is a huge translation issue here. Here is the rendering of verse 36 as per the NET Bible:

Jesus replied, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my servants would be fighting to keep me from being 1 handed over 2 to the Jewish authorities. 3 But as it is, 4 my kingdom is not from here.

The NET version is, my sources indicate, true to the original Greek. The greek word that is rendered “from” (above in the bolded and underlined cases) has the following definition:

“a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote)”

When the word is used properly, we see that the “not of this world” reading is misleading. The intended meaning is that the Kingdom that has been brought to earth is from Heaven - that is, Heaven is the point of origin for the Kingdom that has been initiated.

That is interesting and informative, and thank you for it, but it does not change the premise of the discussion.

The point is not that, but rather that this world was created for a purpose...which is NOT ongoing, but passing. In fact Time, Space and Matter, are NOT a "done deal" that shall forever be, at all.

ScottA · Jan 20, 2016

expos4ever said:
This idea that our universe is "passing away" is, I suggest, unbiblical. Yes, there is that text in Peter that seems to suggest this; I will deal with that text later.

For the moment, I will claim that there are many texts that suggest the world will not pass away, it will instead be rescued, redeemed, and transformed. In Romans 8, Paul writes of creation being "set free from decay". This suggests that creation will not be destroyed, but rather restored.

Your case is mute. We are not staying here.

ScottA · Jan 20, 2016

durangodawood said:
So when the Bible talks about time and events occurring over time, its more like a story than a real thing that actually happened?

When the books are opened...Time will have been but a means of telling your/our/His story.

AlexDTX · Jan 20, 2016

ScottA said:
It is very human to consider things in the way that you have described. But, that is only because we have trouble coming to grips with the reality that "created" by definition means "made up" at worst, and "manifest" at best. And that "in His image" could very well mean, "imagination": צֶלֶםtselem, tseh'-lem; from an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, i.e. (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence, a representative figure, especially an idol:—image, vain shew. ... There's that word "illusion." [Einstein]

So...if we are going to talk about reality...we really need to start over, and not lean on our own understanding.

If what you say is true that makes God a macabre monster since he is imagining souls that will never die and will suffer everlasting torment in the lake of fire. I think you are the one without a grip on reality.

ScottA · Jan 20, 2016

expos4ever said:
While I have not read every post, I certainly would challenge this view. I am quite confident that there is widespread consensus among relevant experts (physicist, philosophers?) that time is not just what you suggest. Yes, clearly, a "story" embodies its own timeline but I suspect no qualified expert denies the reality of time in the "real" world in which you and I live.

Agree, but this does not mean that there is not a real "thing" we call time that comprises a critical component of our description of reality.

You are stuck in the human-centric perspective.

ScottA · Jan 20, 2016

expos4ever said:
I think I understand what you are saying but I think your view is at odds with the broad consensus of experts. Consider this please: When experiments began to show that clocks run slower in stronger gravitational fields and at higher speeds relative to lower ones, this comprises powerful evidence that time is "indeed" real; there is no one "creating time" as some sort of "would-be" fact. We run experiments and nature reveals herself: time is a real feature of our world that happens to be elastic relative to local physical conditions.

Perhaps I do not fully understand your view, but based on what I have inferred to this point, your view is extremely unusual and at odds with the broad consensus among "experts" that time is "real", even though it is subtle and mysterious.

The would-be "experts" have changed there story all down through the ages, and there is only one Expert that remains the same, and only One I am concerned with.

ScottA · Jan 20, 2016

AlexDTX said:
If what you say is true that makes God a macabre monster since he is imagining souls that will never die and will suffer everlasting torment in the lake of fire. I think you are the one without a grip on reality.

Believe what you will. But if it were you imagining your own great will, it is not so difficult to imagine that it would include dumping the trash before returning home with all that is good, and before actually manifesting it all in your living room (so to speak). You, monster, you.

Davian · Jan 20, 2016

ScottA said:
You have missed the point. It doesn't matter what the articles say,

You don't care that they undermine your position?

it simply shows the scientific community in debate,

No, a few radicals to not equal a community in debate. But, a nice attempt to move the goalposts there.

being unsure and unqualified to make factual statements

Who then would you defer to for factual statements about science?

about Time.

If find your use of that capitonym to be intellectually dishonest, as science does not study time-with-a-capitol-T.

expos4ever · Jan 20, 2016

ScottA said:
In fact Time, Space and Matter, are NOT a "done deal" that shall forever be, at all.

Well we disagree on what the Bible says in respect to this. I believe the Scriptures teach that creation - including the whole package of space, time, and matter - will not "pass away" but rather be redeemed and restored. We can discuss the relevant texts if you wish.

No Time, No Age.

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