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No Time, No Age.

Hieronymus

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Time is not an illusion it is relative.
No, our perception of time is relative. For a clock and the rest of physics it's real.
Reality is an illusion.
Could be, but we all share the same reality.
We experience the same world.
So our experience is very real.
 
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AHH who-stole-my-name

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It is like a snake oil salesman. When customers come back complaining that the snake oil doesn't work, the salesman makes all kind of excuses. For example, when you took the snake oil, were you standing on one foot? Or better yet, the snake oil didn't work because you didn't believe it would work. How does the salesman know that? BECAUSE THE SNAKE OIL DIDN'T WORK.

It's the perfect scam.
That is an opinion based on your understanding of that which is occurring around you. I applaud you for having it, but there is little I can say that will refute an ingrained assumption.



I was a Christian for the first 22 years of my life. Didn't get an answer then, either.
Have you ever thought that you migh have held god in a box and weren't looking in the right direction for the answers.



One of the best outcomes of any discussion is the possibility of coming away with a better understanding of other peoples' positions. However, it seems like we are walking over a lot of the same territory.
I am sorry that you have walked this path before, but It was not with me. I am a solution orientated person and I am not opposed to thinking outside the box. Would you not grant me the chance to speak to you about this?

If belief in God is based on faith instead of evidence, then fine. Problems arise when people claim that atheists are without excuse for not believing because there is evidence. When asked for that evidence, we again see theists retreating to a position where all of the evidence is suddenly invisible. That really doesn't help the discussion.
I do not subscribe to the idea that anything an Atheist states is an excuse. To me the person who does this is making an excuse for themselves in order to keep from answering your questions. I don't have all the answers but we can surly speculate on that which is unknown and maybe, just maybe we can find some common ground we are comfortable with.
 
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Davian

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I described it.
I am not sure what you described.
Millions of others have described it.
Sure, and millions describe ghosts, ancient extraterrestrial alien visitations, recent extraterrestrial alien visitations, reptilian humanoids, Bigfoot, the Bermuda Triangle, and the Loch Ness monster.
The bible describes it.
Subject to interpretation, it seems.
The world describes it.
Not really, if it can also be used to describe world-creating-fairies.
No excuse.
"I am not convinced" needs no excuse.
Be patient. The timing of events in your life is for you, time means nothing to God.
And "God" means nothing to me.
And it might also help if you refrain from being rude
Do you find anyone that disagrees with you to be rude?
and sarcastic.
Mockery is a legitimate form of criticism, where it is warranted.
 
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ScottA

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No, our perception of time is relative. For a clock and the rest of physics it's real.Could be, but we all share the same reality.
We experience the same world.
So our experience is very real.
Yes, except, the subjects that we often discuss here are bigger than the world...way bigger. So, as we venture out beyond the bounds of this world and universe, those same claims cannot be made, nor do they apply.

The common argument is, "Why can't you just stuff your big God into our little world so we can poke and prod and run some scientific tests to understand Him?"

To which, we need to be telling them: "It is not possible, and if you want to examine Him, you will have to venture beyond your little world, just like we often do here in conversation."
 
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AHH who-stole-my-name

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I am not sure what you described.

Sure, and millions describe ghosts, ancient extraterrestrial alien visitations, recent extraterrestrial alien visitations, reptilian humanoids, Bigfoot, the Bermuda Triangle, and the Loch Ness monster.

Subject to interpretation, it seems.

Not really, if it can also be used to describe world-creating-fairies.

"I am not convinced" needs no excuse.

And "God" means nothing to me.

Do you find anyone that disagrees with you to be rude?

Mockery is a legitimate form of criticism, where it is warranted.
I don't know the length and breath of your previous discussion but Is there any way I can help? I am intrigued by the conversations of those who don't share my beliefs and I am not opposed to learning from them, as well.

I understand that God means nothing to you, but is that because he isn't real to you or that the actions of those who claim his sovereignty over their lives have not shown any effects of that sovereignty?
 
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joshua 1 9

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No, our perception of time is relative. For a clock and the rest of physics it's real.Could be, but we all share the same reality.
We experience the same world.
So our experience is very real.
There is a subjective and there is an objective reality. Some people are more objective then others. Even science does extensive experiments to see what extent people will go to, to go along with the status flo & to maintain their political correctness. The uni-bomber maybe an example of someone that was resistant to be a part of the objective reality and maintained his own subjectivity.
 
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Davian

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I don't know the length and breath of your previous discussion
Not too much to it really. Scott declares his opinions to be fact, and I just point out where they are not.
but Is there any way I can help? I am intrigued by the conversations of those who don't share my beliefs and I am not opposed to learning from them, as well.
Likewise.
I understand that God means nothing to you,
It would be more appropriate to say that I am ignostic on that subject; for each context where the word is used, I would ask, what do you mean by "god"?
but is that because he isn't real to you or that the actions of those who claim his sovereignty over their lives have not shown any effects of that sovereignty?
Both.
 
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AHH who-stole-my-name

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Not too much to it really. Scott declares his opinions to be fact, and I just point out where they are not
opinions of others opinions are not easily debated. It's merely and exchange of subjective truths that may or may not be comparable.

Likewise.
Then we have a common ground to work with. Thank you on this.

It would be more appropriate to say that I am ignostic on that subject; for each context where the word is used, I would ask, what do you mean by "god"?
Well, God has different meanings to different people. I've heard the term used in materialism, but to me it means a higher power that produced everything.

Are you sure that the latter has not brought the prior into question?
 
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Hieronymus

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Yes, except, the subjects that we often discuss here are bigger than the world...way bigger. So, as we venture out beyond the bounds of this world and universe, those same claims cannot be made, nor do they apply.
We can while still bound to our "fleshy vessel".
This is the present reality we have in common, to which we're subjected.
So even our present reality is 'bigger' than us.
We just find ourselves being a small part of it.
The common argument is, "Why can't you just stuff your big God into our little world so we can poke and prod and run some scientific tests to understand Him?"
But God is outside / above our present reality.
This will change though, when Christ returns and / or when we leave present reality.
The Creator is not the creation.
To which, we need to be telling them: "It is not possible, and if you want to examine Him, you will have to venture beyond your little world, just like we often do here in conversation."
Okay, but in the present reality we're kind of 'stuck' here.
Venturing beyond is a matter of conviction, belief, faith.

But our experiencing and being part of present reality is very real.
 
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ScottA

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We can while still bound to our "fleshy vessel".
This is the present reality we have in common, to which we're subjected.
So even our present reality is 'bigger' than us.
We just find ourselves being a small part of it.But God is outside / above our present reality.
This will change though, when Christ returns and / or when we leave present reality.
The Creator is not the creation.Okay, but in the present reality we're kind of 'stuck' here.
Venturing beyond is a matter of conviction, belief, faith.

But our experiencing and being part of present reality is very real.
That is all true for some, but there are also (all throughout the history of the world) people such as myself who have been beyond this present [so called] reality, and it is all way more than conviction, belief, and faith. Our convictions, beliefs, and faith are founded in the greater reality of God beyond the world, and this is the message: Not that faith and belief are in what cannot be seen or realized, but that we can in fact "know" things that have come to us from beyond the world, by Him who created it.

It is also, not in keeping with God's purpose, that we build our lives around this would-be [so called] reality, when it is not our home, and we are just briefly passing through. It sends the wrong message. Our faith is not in the world.

The point is...we who "know" God, must not be content to stay, but rather cross over this Jordan in the sight of every nation and people.
 
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Davian

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opinions of others opinions are not easily debated. It's merely and exchange of subjective truths that may or may not be comparable.
Well, I'm not the one making the truth statements, and his "truths" can be compared to observations of reality.
Then we have a common ground to work with. Thank you on this.

Well, God has different meanings to different people. I've heard the term used in materialism, but to me it means a higher power that produced everything.
Or it is portrayed as something that, in order for stories of it to be true, would require that virtually all of mainstream science need be wrong.
Are you sure that the latter has not brought the prior into question?
No, I would say that what brings it into question is his failure to show that his "truths" are an accurate description of reality.
 
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AHH who-stole-my-name

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Well, I'm not the one making the truth statements, and his "truths" can be compared to observations of reality.
I was not targeting you personally in any of this. I also was not targeting he who you were talking to, I was making a statement of the facts that I have enticed and have at times, feel into. It, to me is simple logic. opinions are personal truths that have not been verified.

Or it is portrayed as something that, in order for stories of it to be true, would require that virtually all of mainstream science need be wrong.
No, not really. I applause the leaps and bounds that science has brought to mankind. The search for knowledge is a noble goal and I don't think religion has any place there, other than the morals of those scientist who are Christin. Science is of the mind and it's purpose and place is there. Religion comes from the heart and it's purpose and place is there. Art is of the soul and it's purpose and place is there. All of these can be mixed, to a certain degree, but they should not overshadow each other. If that is done, It diminishes the rest and causes conflict that should not be.
Religion to me is something near and dear to my heart, but I will not let it put God in a convenient box. This, I think is the cause of much of the conflict in the world.

No, I would say that what brings it into question is his failure to show that his "truths" are an accurate description of reality.
I was not talking about the people in particular. I was talking specifically about my question to you. I try to refrain from discussing those not present to those who are. It usually ends up in a he said, she said drama that is unnecessary.

To be fair I will present to you something that I've thought up that will possibly clarify what Christians see of this world.

Imagine sin as a toxic cloud that permeates everything, even the air. The world is covered in this cloud. To a Christian, The sacrifice of Christ and our acceptance as our savior creates a completely sealed chemical suit with it's own oxygen supply so we can walk through the world and not be effected by sin.

I know a lot of people think Sin is breaking God's laws but they seem to think that there is a hierarchy of laws, as is in our penal system. There are no felony sins and no Misdemeanor sins, but there are sins that can never be forgiven.

Christian's walk through life seeing the same sights as another. Except that we have an internal filtering lens that we call faith that sees things a bit differently than the rest of the world.[/QUOTE]
 
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Davian

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That is all true for some, but there are also (all throughout the history of the world) people such as myself who have been beyond this present [so called] reality,
...or imagined they have done so...
and it is all way more than conviction, belief, and faith. Our convictions, beliefs, and faith are founded in the greater reality of God beyond the world,
Just not in any way that you can demonstrate.
and this is the message: Not that faith and belief are in what cannot be seen or realized, but that we can in fact "know" things that have come to us from beyond the world, by Him who created it.

It is also, not in keeping with God's purpose, that we build our lives around this would-be [so called] reality, when it is not our home, and we are just briefly passing through. It sends the wrong message. Our faith is not in the world.

The point is...we who "know" God, must not be content to stay, but rather cross over this Jordan in the sight of every nation and people.
How preachy.
 
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Davian

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I was not targeting you personally in any of this. I also was not targeting he who you were talking to, I was making a statement of the facts that I have enticed and have at times, feel into. It, to me is simple logic. opinions are personal truths that have not been verified.
You have then reduced "truth" to "opinion", which is why that I say that I seek not truth, but accurate descriptions of reality.
No, not really.
Yes, really. Have you not seen some of the threads in this forum? We even have some flat-earther in here.
I applause the leaps and bounds that science has brought to mankind. The search for knowledge is a noble goal and I don't think religion has any place there, other than the morals of those scientist who are Christin. Science is of the mind and it's purpose and place is there. Religion comes from the heart and it's purpose and place is there. Art is of the soul and it's purpose and place is there. All of these can be mixed, to a certain degree, but they should not overshadow each other. If that is done, It diminishes the rest and causes conflict that should not be.
Religion to me is something near and dear to my heart, but I will not let it put God in a convenient box. This, I think is the cause of much of the conflict in the world.

I was not talking about the people in particular. I was talking specifically about my question to you. I try to refrain from discussing those not present to those who are. It usually ends up in a he said, she said drama that is unnecessary.
Scott can chime in any time he likes.
To be fair I will present to you something that I've thought up that will possibly clarify what Christians see of this world.

Imagine sin as a toxic cloud that permeates everything, even the air. The world is covered in this cloud.
I do not know what you mean by "sin". From what I gather, the only "sin" of note is disbelief. Everything else goes, as long as you believe.
To a Christian, The sacrifice of Christ and our acceptance as our savior creates a completely sealed chemical suit with it's own oxygen supply so we can walk through the world and not be effected by sin.

I know a lot of people think Sin is breaking God's laws but they seem to think that there is a hierarchy of laws, as is in our penal system. There are no felony sins and no Misdemeanor sins, but there are sins that can never be forgiven.

Christian's walk through life seeing the same sights as another. Except that we have an internal filtering lens that we call faith that sees things a bit differently than the rest of the world.
I see no reason to accept that you see it more accurately through the filters of your religion.
 
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