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Featured No such thing in scripture as 3 compartments of hell

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by BobRyan, Oct 1, 2019.

  1. Christ is Lord

    Christ is Lord Well-Known Member

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    No always. However, you’re right in that there isn’t a direct connection.
     
  2. Christ is Lord

    Christ is Lord Well-Known Member

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    Because phrases like “going down to be with my fathers” or “to be at my fathers side” do suggest some belief in an afterlife that was pleasant. You also have archeological evidence that Israelites kept items to remember dead loved ones but I won’t get into that as it might be off topic.
     
  3. spiritualchristian7

    spiritualchristian7 Member

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    I don't really know. But there have been debates whether or not hell exists, so you might want to check that out. Well, I hope you find answers, brethren. :)
     
  4. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    bobryan,

    1. There are 5 departments in the underworld of Departed Spirits.
    These are not the grave.

    2. a) Tartarus (1 Peter 3:19; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude1:6-7).
    Jesus preached to the spirits in prison.
    God cast the angels that sinned down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness to be reserved unto judgement.
    The angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgement of the great day.

    3. b) Abraham’s Bosom (Luke 16:19-31;23-43) and Paradise Luke 23:43
    This was under the time of the promise and the law of Moses.
    This is not a parable for Jesus never used real names in the parables.
    Lazarus was a real beggar and the rich man was real and Abraham was real and all three spoke.
    There were two abodes; Abraham’s bosom, where the real angels carried
    Lazarus to v22.
    The rich man was buried and went to hell where he was being in torment.
    Abraham’s bosom and hell of torments had a great gulf fixed in between them.
    Abraham’s bosom was a prison where the devil kept them against their wills Hebrews 2:14-15; Ephesians 4:7-11.
    The devil had the power of death till Christ died.
    Christ led captivity captive.
    David spoke of the resurrection of Christ that his soul was not left in Hell, neither his flesh did see corruption Acts 2:31.
    This shows that the righteous souls went to hell.
    The flesh of Christ did not see corruption but was raised from the dead as an eternal, , immortal, flesh and bone body, not as a spirit being ( Luke 24:37-43; John 25:20-29; Zechariah 13:6; Acts 1:11.
    This seems pretty plain that Abraham’s bosom was real and a compartment of hell for Christ wouldn’t have gone to the other side of gulf to the place of torments.
    The thief being in Paradise was Abraham’s Bosom because today being with Christ was the first day. Christ did not rise until the third day.
    This was the abode for the righteous where the devil kept them captive and where Christ took the captivity captive to Heaven. Hebrews 2:14-15; Ephesians 4:7-11.

    4. Hell (Matthew 16:18; Luke 16: 19-31)
    The gates of hell shall never prevail against the church.
    Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels Matthew 25:41 where it is everlasting fire just like the rich man encountered in Luke’s account.

    5. Revelation 20:10 will be cast into the lake of fire and are tormented day and night forever.
    Death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire Revelation 20:14.

    6. 1. Tartarus (Sinful Angels Prison)
    2. Abraham’s Bosom or Paradise (Abode of the Righteous) before Christ died and Rose Again
    3. Hell (Abode of the wicked)
    4. Lake of Fire (where the Devil and his angels and death and he’ll will be cast into)
    5. The Bottomless pit Revelation 9:1;11; 20:1;3.
    The demon locusts are released on the earth and have a demonic angel over them called Apollyon Greek and Abaddon Hebrew. Jerry Kelso
     
  5. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." (luke16:23) Even though Abraham's Bosom was "afar off" from Hell, you could still see this place from Hell. We see this word "afar" used 14 times in the Bible and they indicted a lot of distance but you can still see one from the other with your physical eyes. It could be that we are talking about a vision, but that is not the common use for this word at all. Every indication is that Abrahams Bosom and Hell are both in the Earth. Of course they are spiritual and not physical. We see this also with the bottomless pit. We know from the smoke that this is a volcano. But we can not look with our eyes and see something that is Spiritual. Even though we know that it's location is in the bottomless pit or in a volcano. The hell fire and brimstone is physical, but we are really talking about a spiritual place. The physical body returns to the earth, but the spirit or soul is reserved for the day of judgement. For some they will end up in the lake of fire.
     
  6. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    The body sleeping means only the body is dead.
    Proof of that are all the words Christ spoke about a conscious tormenting in hell for the wicked dead.
    Because your SDA, and believe in soul sleeping after death, (an unconscious existence till the resurrection), you can not accept Lazarus and the rich man as conscious real persons experiencing a life after physical death.
     
  7. Mathetes66

    Mathetes66 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The burden of proof lies with you to PROVE there isn't.

    First of all, hell must be clearly defined.
    Second, compartment (parts, lower parts, lowest, etc.) needs to be defined also.

    Hell is translated or understood in Scripture as: the pit and/or lowest part of the pit (Ps 88:6), the grave, the abyss (Luke 8:31) & pit of the abyss (Rev 9:1), Sheol (Ps 16:10), Hades (Luke 16:23), Gehenna, the lake of fire & the lake of fire & brimstone (Rev 20:10), the second death (Rev 20:14), lower PARTS (plural) of the earth, Topheth (Is 30:33), the heart of the earth (Mt 12:40), spirits 'in prison', the land of forgetfulness (oblivion--Ps 88:12), a land of darkness & gloom (Job 10:21), the darkest of the DEPTHS (plural--Ps 88:6), Abaddon (Apollyon--Rev 9:11), bottomless pit (Rev 9:11), the lowest hell or the lowest part of the afterlife (ISV--Deut 32:22, Ps 86:13), gates of death (Ps 9:13), the depths of the earth (Ps 71:20), the belly of Sheol (hell--Jonah 2:2); the lake that burns with fire & sulfur (Rev 21:8), ETC.

    This is not an exhaustive list of the terms used to describe both the temporary places or abode of the departed souls of the physically dead called hell as well as the permanent place of hell, the abode of the resurrected spiritually dead, separated from the presence of the Lord for eternity.

    Sheol, Hades, the pit, etc. are described as the temporary abode of the spiritually dead souls of the physically dead before the resurrection, which some translations call hell.

    Probably the more appropriate term for hell would be the eternal destination of the spiritually dead souls united to incorruptible resurrected bodies in the synonymous Scriptural terms: Gehenna of fire (Mark 9:47), the lake of fire (Rev 20:14), the Second Death (Rev 2:11; 21:6).

    One that transcends both the temporary & the eternal is Gan Eden, the Garden of Eden, the garden planted by the LORD, the Paradise of God, the bosom of Abraham, the abode of bliss, etc. (Gen 2; Ezek 31; Is 51:3, Gen 3:24, Rev 20 & 21, etc.)

    On the Russian Orthodox crosses, by the way, there is a little inscription at the foot of Jesus’ feet on the cross, in four Slavonic letters, M, L, R, and B, in Slavonic, which translated means, “The place of the skull (or Golgatha) has become Paradise.”

    Scripture DOES TEACH that there are various compartments or parts or depths or separations within the abode of the dead called Sheol in Hebrew (OT) & Hades in Greek (NT), shown with plural terms rather than just one singular term.

    Scripture teaches in the Old Testament (OT) that all people, both the righteous & the unrighteous, after physically dying, had their souls moved Sheol.

    Ecclesiastes 6:3-6 A man may father a hundred children & live for many years; yet no matter how long he lives, if he is unsatisfied with his prosperity & does not even receive a proper burial, I say that a stillborn child is better off than he. For he enters in futility & departs in darkness & his name is shrouded in obscurity. A stillborn child has more rest than he—though never seeing the sun or knowing anything— if he lives a 1000 years twice over, but fails to enjoy his prosperity. DO NOT ALL GO TO THE SAME PLACE?

    Eccl 9:2 IT IS THE SAME FOR ALL: There is a common fate for the righteous & the wicked, for the good & the bad, for the clean & the unclean, for the one who sacrifices & the one who does not. As it is for the good, so it is for the sinner; as it is for the one who makes a vow, so it is for the one who refuses to take a vow.

    The OT teaches life after death & that all people went to a place of conscious existence called Sheol, while their physical bodies returned back to dust. The wicked were there (Ps 9:17; 31:17; 49:14; Isa 5:14), & so were the righteous (Gen 37:35; 42:38; 2 Sam 22:6; Job 14:13; Ps 88:3; Eccl 9:10; Isa 38:10; Jonah 2:2).

    So, does Scripture teach there is a separation of the good from the evil after physical death, as well as after the physical resurrections of the good & the evil? Yes, it does.

    Jesus taught true historical facts concerning what happens to a righteous person after death & an unrighteous person after death. In Luke 16:19-31 a certain rich man, Dives in Latin, lived a self-centered life in the pursuit of riches rather than God. As a result, when he physically died & his body was buried, he found himself, his soul in Hades, in torments. He had five actual brothers, real people.

    In that same historical account, there was a real person named Lazarus, that longed to beat the dogs to get the crumbs off Dive's meals before they did. He was a beggar, full of sores, barely being kept alive. He was ignored by Dives & had no compassion for Lazarus. The only attention he got was that the dogs licked his many sores.

    One day Lazarus died. When he died the angels of God carried his soul directly to the side of Abraham (euphemism of Abraham's Bosom), where Abraham was in the abode of the dead, in Sheol, where all departed souls go.

    Abraham was a real person, too. He also had died, was buried & his soul went to be in Sheol also, just as his son Jacob had said, who was to go there after his death & be with his son Joseph. (Gen 37:35). Jacob & Joseph were real people, too, as taught in Scripture.

    Was there a separation between these two real people, who had died & gone to Sheol/Hades, as Jesus taught & as the Jewish scribes & teachers had taught? Yes.

    Luke 16:22,23 One day the beggar died & was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. And the rich man also died & was buried. In Hades, where he was in torments, he looked up & saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.

    Jesus taught there was a separation between Dives & between Lazarus & Abraham. They were separated by a far distance. Dives as 'below' & Abraham & Lazarus were above.

    Abraham also taught that there was a separation, a great chasm, a great abyss--& that those that were righteous could not cross over to the other side with the unrighteous souls--& vice versa.

    Luke 16:25,26 But Abraham answered, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are left to suffer. And besides all this, A GREAT CHASM HAS BEEN FIXED BETWEEN US--AND YOU, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’

    Only Jesus, as God, could have known of this real conversation & this real situation. It is one of the clearest examples of what happens after we die. Psalm 139:8

    On one side, there is comfort & rest, light (Dives could see both of them) & the water of life. Ezekiel (ch 31 and elsewhere--Gan Eden). On the other side is a conscious awareness of being separated, darkness & suffering. Dives could not see back into the physical realm from where he was but one of his sufferings was for his five actual & real brothers, that they would turn & repent & not come to the same place he was.

    The paradise of God, Gan Eden, the garden of Eden was a special place GOD PLANTED & MADE. First we see it on the earth in Genesis 2,3 & then separated from sinful man on the earth. Then where do we see it? In Ezekiel 31 for example, we see it in Sheol, in that specific area for the righteous. Then in the epistles & in Revelation, where do we see it? In the heavens, where Paul visited & in the heavenly Jerusalem. It went from the physical realm, to the spiritual ream & finally in the heavens & comes down with the spiritual, heavenly Jerusalem or city of God.

    This understanding in Scripture gives us the clues to put together why Jesus' soul was said to be in Sheol/Hades yet after He died, also in Paradise, which He taught & that the BELIEVING thief on the cross, would go be there with Jesus when they died.

    The key witness to the truth--which has been, is now & will always be--the Scriptures & God's eternal witness of Himself to each person--is what every person has that shows the REALITY of God Himself & for each person to repent, believe the truth & follow His Creator.

    However one may want to describe it: a chasm, an abyss, two compartments, two parts, two areas, two distinct places within Sheol/Hades--there is a separation that cannot be crossed by human beings that have physically died.

    2 Pet 2:9 If all this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials & to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

    Scripture teaches that Jesus is human as well as Divine, both God & man. When Jesus died, like every other human being, he went to Sheol.

    Psalm 16:8-10 I have set the LORD always before me. Because He is at my right hand, I will not be shaken. Therefore my heart is glad & my tongue rejoices; my body also will dwell securely. For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay.

    Yet there is another area in Sheol/Hades, called Tartarus, which the Apostle Peter taught about & Jude, Jesus' earthly brother.

    2 Pet 2:4 Aramaic Bible in Plain English
    And if God did not spare the Angels who sinned, but cast them down in chains of darkness into the lowest depths (of Tartarus) & handed them over to be kept for the judgment of torment...


    For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them deep into hell, placing them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment...

    Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day...

    Tartarus is another term sometimes translated as 'hell' & as such shows yet another area, deep within Sheol/Hades, where evil wicked angelic beings were kept chained in this darkened area, in torments, waiting for the Day of Judgment.

    And there is the Scriptural area that is called the bottomless pit, the abyss, the chasm mentioned in Luke 16, etc. that describes yet another area found in Sheol/Hades.

    These are some things to consider when looking at the WHOLE of Scripture & its testimony of what is hell & what is found in there. There is so much more to be said on this subject that the Scriptures teach from Genesis to Revelation.
     
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  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    1. The body sleeps each night -- does not mean you are dead.
    2. Matt 10:28 the body is killed... but not the soul. (not "the body sleeps... but not the soul).

    Matt 10
    28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    God "brings with him those who have fallen asleep" - 1Thess 4.. Jesus will not be carrying a load of dead bodies back to Earth with Him.

    Because I read the Bible -- I believe it tells us about the condition of the person "Lazarus is dead" John 11 was said by Christ in John 11 as well as "our friend Lazarus sleeps" John 11.

    But at no point did Jesus say "I friend Lazarus' body sleeps"... because of coure we all do that every night.
     
  9. Christ is Lord

    Christ is Lord Well-Known Member

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    I knew the topic of soul sleep would come up. Maybe start a new thread?
    :)

    "And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”"

    Matthew 22:31-32

    The soul does live on after we die then how could Jesus make that statement? Because physically the bodies of Abraham, Isaac and Job are dead.
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    And that part alone would not tell people like R.C Sproul that this "must be a parable" --

    But Abraham sovereign of all dead saints in heaven - was a big indicator to many Bible scholars that this is a parable.


    Not even one text saying that "Abraham's bosom" is on Earth
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    I only quoted texts. My point is that there are not 3 compartments to hell according to the Bible - we could "imagine it" but that is not the same thing as saying we have a text saying it.

    The soul most certainly survives after death and is not destroyed or killed at the first death.

    Matt 10:28
    28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
     
  12. Christ is Lord

    Christ is Lord Well-Known Member

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    So you don’t affirm soul sleep?
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Hell does exist - and John calls it "the Lake of Fire" in Rev 20 ... other bible writers just call it "hell" -- it is fire and brimstone... in fact a lake of fire and brimstone covering all of planet earth in Rev 20... has not started yet because that is after the 1000 year millennium according to the text
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    I have never used the term "soul sleep" on this thread except to say I am not talking about that.

    You are bringing that up because you read some texts here - which is fine but that is not the subject of the thread.

    i have a number of beliefs - not all of which are being discussed in my topic for this thread.

    This thread is just about the idea that Hell is not where Paradise is
     
  15. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    ???
    Whose definition ???

    If a person after dying finds themselves in the blink of an eye being resurrected,

    yet for other people centuries did pass "in the same 'time' " ,

    were they asleep ? (there is no time in death nor in heaven, apparently)
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    That's not how it works.

    If someone says "there is no such thing in the Bible as an easter bunny that is in charge of all dead fishes" and someone replies "no it is up to you to prove there isn't" -- I would have to post the "entire Bible" in response and then say "see no such thing as that".

    So thankfully - that is not how it works.

    The way it works is that someone says "in fact the easter bunny does take charge of all dead fishes according to the Bible" and then I say "nope that is not what the Bible teaches" and then the first person says "yes it does and here is the text that says it".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    hell is an english term it is not translated at all.

    Hades is translated as the english term "hell" in some english translations.

    But no text says that paradise is in hell or is in hades or is in Gehenna or in the OT is in Sheol -- in fact that term for paradise is not in the OT at all
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    1. Neither Eph 4 nor Hebrews 2 mention "Abraham's bosom"
    2. No text says "Abraham's bosom is a prison"
    3. No text says "the devil is/was in charge of Abraham's bosom"
    4. In your statement above you say good angels carry the dead saints to a place (Abraham's bosom) where the devil is/was in charge of holding them as prisoners.
    5. By contrast in Luke 16 Abraham SAYS (emphasized because "places" do not "speak" much less participate in Q&A conversations) that Lazarus had bad things in life - but here with Abraham he has his good reward and is being "comforted" for all the suffering he had while living on Earth -- i.e. good things and not "prison". Not "imprisonment by the devil" or any such thing.

    And yet you say "Abraham’s bosom was a prison where the devil kept them against their wills Hebrews 2:14-15; Ephesians 4:7-11."

    The term "abraham's bosom" is only mentioned one place in scripture - and that is in Luke 16 so no need to search all over NT and OT for texts that don't mention it -- we can already see that.

    "paradise" is only found in three texts in all of scripture, Luke 23, 2 Cor 12, Rev 2 -- so here again a very easy subject to research.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2019
  19. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    bobryan,

    1. Point 1 is that it doesn’t have to say Abraham’s Bosom.
    These verses collaborate with Luke 16:19-31 which is the context of Abraham’s Bosom.

    2. Ephesians 4:8; Wherefore he saith, When he (Christ) ascended up on high, he (Christ) ascended up on high (Heaven), he (Christ) led captivity captive these were those that were in Abraham’s Bosom.
    The word captivity is used is because Satan had the keys (Authority) of hell and death till Christ arose from the dead and Hebrews 2:14-15; Revelation 1:18 shows this to be true.

    3. I believe you are misunderstanding the concept of the devil holding them against their will.
    Satan had the rights to hell and Christ had to make his right for them to have to free them.
    This freeing was to make Satan’s rights inoperative legally.

    4. I didn’t say good angels carry dead saints to Abraham’s Bosom. The scripture said the beggar was carried by the angels into Abraham’s Bosom.
    He was holding them against their will legally because they had the power of death Hebrews 2:14. This is the reason for the phrase captivating captive Ephesians 4:8.
    You’re literal pictorial is incorrect. You might as well as believe the devil has a pitchfork and a pitchfork tail lol.

    5. The not suffering reward in Abraham’s Bosom which was temporary has nothing to do with your view of humanistic imprisonment.
    It has to do with being held against their will by the devil who legally had the power of death.
    But Christ freed them from this place which was temporary and because of the legality of taking the keys of hell and death Revelation 1:8.
    If you don’t believe this you are just wanting to making your own argument to explain why the legality is not true and it would be to your own hermeneutics and not biblical hermeneutics.

    6. Being mentioned once doesn’t mean anything.
    The meaning of the context and reconciling with the other scriptures that collaborate with it.
    I already explained why Paradise and Abraham’s Bosom was the same place though it is not an exact plain statement that they are the same.
    Jesus said the thief would be with him in paradise that same day he died.
    Where did he go? It couldn’t have been Heaven for Christ had not yet arose.
    It couldn’t be the torments where the rich man was which was a gulf apart.
    The only place could be where the righteous souls were at which was Abraham’s Bosom was.
    Now you’re going to do better than what you are trying to make stick that is not biblical scripture, meaning or logic. Jerry Kelso
     
  20. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We are more dead than the Saints in Heaven. Abraham is in Heaven now. Jesus "led captivity captive" He set free those who were in the Earth. They are in Heaven now.

    Jesus took the key back from Satan. He gave the key to Peter and thus to the church. "19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” This is why we talk about apostolic secession.
     
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