No Prophets!

[ranyhyn]

This may not be the most detailed or the most exact answer but here goes.

In the early church there were of course the original 12 apostles. Jesus gave them charge to go out and build the church.

"It is, however, generally used as designating the body of disciples to whom he intrusted the organization of his church and the dissemination of his gospel, "the twelve," as they are called ( Mat 10:1-5; Mar 3:14; 6:7; Luk 6:13; 9:1)"

"Our Lord gave them the "keys of the kingdom," and by the gift of his Spirit fitted them to be the founders and governors of his church ( Jhn 14:16,17,26; 15:26,27; 16:7-15). To them, as representing his church, he gave the commission to "preach the gospel to every creature" ( Mat 28:18-20). After his ascension he communicated to them, according to his promise, supernatural gifts to qualify them for the discharge of their duties ( Act 2:4; 1Cr 2:16; 2:7,10,13; 2Cr 5:20; 1Cr 11:2)."

That's taken from another website as the definition from Easton's Bible Dictionary. What we learned in our Bible Study at church is that the apostles are in charge of planting the seeds to the new church. They go out and start the new church and then they are in charge of making sure that things run smoothly. They may be in charge of several churches in an area and they have the duty of coming in and correcting things if something is wrong.

First and foremost they must be able to preach the Word of God. They cannot start a church without being able to spread the Good News of the Gospel. In a nutshell they are the ones who start and plant new churches and monitor them to keep things running.

I'm sure others can give more detailed descriptions and add to what I've posted. Hope that helps.

 

[pdfiddler]

This is great! I want to hear more.

 

[tturt]

ranyhyn agree with what you posted with one slight modification.

Several churches I know operate under the five fold ministry. Apostles do "oversee" churches. Usually they have regular meetings and the ministers of the churches they oversee can contact them if there are any problems. They don't tell the churches exactly how to do things. They offer advice based on God's Word, experiences, and what the Lord is telling them. Some of them are paid while others aren't. Yes, they definitely are to know God's Word. Some apostles are also prophets as well as being blessed with several of the spiritual gifts. Since apostles are listed first in the five fold ministry, they are the leadership of the church. Some apostles have churches in other countries and because of circumstances they may be ask to oversee a church that they didn't plant so this is the only modification from ranyhyn's post.

I'll wait until the thread starts addressing the prophets before posting on that b/c at this point it seems to be emphasizing apostles.

 

[talitha]

There is not complete agreement upon what apostles are because of abuse of their authority in the past and then a widespread bogus claim that this gift had "passed" or "ceased" along with prophecy. People gifted in this area often berate themselves for being too much in other ministers' business, at least in their thought life - but the Lord really is showing them how things would be better structured, because that is their real gifting. The man with the title of "senior pastor" at my church is IMHO really a called apostle. He is the fore-runner of a movement that is calling together other non-denominational pastors in fellowship and mutual submission, along with their churches. I also have a close friend that I think is beginning to move in the apostolic. She and her husband opened their home for a discipleship group, and people from a variety of backgrounds have been coming together. Very interesting to see what the Lord is doing there.

 

[JDIBe]

This may not be the most detailed or the most exact answer but here goes.

In the early church there were of course the original 12 apostles. Jesus gave them charge to go out and build the church.

"It is, however, generally used as designating the body of disciples to whom he intrusted the organization of his church and the dissemination of his gospel, "the twelve," as they are called ( Mat 10:1-5; Mar 3:14; 6:7; Luk 6:13; 9:1)"

"Our Lord gave them the "keys of the kingdom," and by the gift of his Spirit fitted them to be the founders and governors of his church ( Jhn 14:16,17,26; 15:26,27; 16:7-15). To them, as representing his church, he gave the commission to "preach the gospel to every creature" ( Mat 28:18-20). After his ascension he communicated to them, according to his promise, supernatural gifts to qualify them for the discharge of their duties ( Act 2:4; 1Cr 2:16; 2:7,10,13; 2Cr 5:20; 1Cr 11:2)."

That's taken from another website as the definition from Easton's Bible Dictionary.

See, I'm with you up until here........

What we learned in our Bible Study at church is that the apostles are in charge of planting the seeds to the new church. They go out and start the new church and then they are in charge of making sure that things run smoothly. They may be in charge of several churches in an area and they have the duty of coming in and correcting things if something is wrong.

First and foremost they must be able to preach the Word of God. They cannot start a church without being able to spread the Good News of the Gospel. In a nutshell they are the ones who start and plant new churches and monitor them to keep things running.

I'm sure others can give more detailed descriptions and add to what I've posted. Hope that helps.

.......and you lost me.

We support missionaries that do essentially the same thing, but if you called them an apostle, they would look at you funny. That and I can't find any reference to "apostles" in early church history or beyond besides the original 12 (13 ). The closest I can find is the term "Apostolic Fathers" but that was a term coined in the 1600's to refer to the early church fathers who were taught directly by the Apostles (proper) and they didn't seem to refer to themselves or each other in that way (as far as I know).

I would be interested in knowing just what was taught in your bible study that would lead to the conclusion there is an office of "apostle" today. That is where I seem to be disconnecting here. BTW, just because I don't understand the last half of your post doesn't mean I'm not grateful for the effort. Thanks.

 

[ranyhyn]

They don't tell the churches exactly how to do things. They offer advice based on God's Word, experiences, and what the Lord is telling them.

You are correct in that they don't tell the churches what to do. I misspoke there and what you've said is what I meant to say. I chose the wrong words. What I meant was if they are overseeing a church and that church has gotten out of line with God's teachings they have the authority and ability to come in and correct things. They offer guidance to help correct something that is wrong.

 

[ranyhyn]

See, I'm with you up until here........



.......and you lost me.

We support missionaries that do essentially the same thing, but if you called them an apostle, they would look at you funny. That and I can't find any reference to "apostles" in early church history or beyond besides the original 12 (13 ). The closest I can find is the term "Apostolic Fathers" but that was a term coined in the 1600's to refer to the early church fathers who were taught directly by the Apostles (proper) and they didn't seem to refer to themselves or each other in that way (as far as I know).

I would be interested in knowing just what was taught in your bible study that would lead to the conclusion there is an office of "apostle" today. That is where I seem to be disconnecting here. BTW, just because I don't understand the last half of your post doesn't mean I'm not grateful for the effort. Thanks.

Well I did miss one of the studies for apostles. I just caught the beginning of the part on apostles. I would have to go to my pastor and see what notes he was using and get his input.

During the study I was given the impression that there are kind of differing levels so to speak of apostles. Jesus being the chief apostle since He essentially started the church. Then the next level were the original 12 that were commissioned. And now we're in like the 3rd phase/level. The missionaries being part of this along with others. He did specifically mention missionaries as being part of it. I guess there isn't a clearly defined answer as to what an apostle would be today.

 

[J4Jesus]

I don't think the Lord has changed His mind and I believe the 5 fold ministry is for today


Ephesians 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers.

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ

And to answer another question on here. Yes there is a differnce in a prophet and one who prophesys. Paul said he wished all of us would prophesy, which is simply prophesy. But he also said not all are prophets: that is a person who is called to be a prophet. We all have different callings in life

 

[tturt]

It seems that the five fold ministry and the gifts of the spirit are being interwined in this thread. From a previous post where it was talking about the spiritual gifts not being passed on, just means that the Lord selects who is going to in the five fold ministry and who is given what gift. In other words, a father can't pass being an apostle to a biological or spiritual son.

Did we cover apostles adequately?

 

[Nadiine]

It seems that the five fold ministry and the gifts of the spirit are being interwined in this thread. From a previous post where it was talking about the spiritual gifts not being passed on, just means that the Lord selects who is going to in the five fold ministry and who is given what gift. In other words, a father can't pass being an apostle to a biological or spiritual son.

Did we cover apostles adequately?

That's becuz the title of the thread and the details of the post list 2 different focuses.

Prophets & the 5fold ministry...

I made the "mistake" of claiming in an earlier thread that I thought the USA was beyond the hearing of any prophets today (refusing all correction & refusal of accepting responsibility for wrongs).
And that due to refusal to repent for wrongdoing (or admit to sin) leaves God no other alternative but to send His hand of judgment on a nation that fails to heed correction.

I never said Prophets didn't exist, I said that the people REFUSE TO HEAR the prophets.
Just as Israel did in it's past, when God had to resort to Judgment to get them to turn back to Him.

Whether we have prophets or not today, I don't even think is the issue. People are more and more rebellious to truth and God's commands and living in perpetual sin & immorality without repentance or remorse for it.

You don't need a prophet to turn to GOD & repent, a prophet is a LAST RESORT before judgment falls.

 

[JDIBe]

It seems that the five fold ministry and the gifts of the spirit are being interwined in this thread. From a previous post where it was talking about the spiritual gifts not being passed on, just means that the Lord selects who is going to in the five fold ministry and who is given what gift. In other words, a father can't pass being an apostle to a biological or spiritual son.

Did we cover apostles adequately?

Well not for me. I'm still sketchy on...

1. Where the Scriptures state that being an apostle is a title that would be passed on?
2. How one knows one is an apostle?
3. How an apostle differs from a missionary according to the Bible?
4. Where are the apostles of the early 2nd century and beyond? If there are "levels" of apostles, doesn't it follow that you can't have a "level four" if there is no "level three"?
5. Whether or not these apostles have the authority to write or determine Scripture.

What ultimately concerns me here is taking Biblical terms and redefining them anyway you want leads to the ability to make the Bible say anything you want, not just what it says. I don't think that's such a good thing.

For example, if we take the qualification of an Elder, "husband of one wife" and extend "husband" to mean "men and common household pets", you end up with cats for Elders which destroys the original meaning of the passage. (For we all know that cats are the spawn of Satan...)

But if i'm the only one not understanding the apostle thing, please continue on. I don't want to hold up the discussion.

BTW, gifts were passed on to others by laying on of hands by the Apostles in the 1st Century.

 

[talitha]

1. Where the Scriptures state that being an apostle is a title that would be passed on? What I'm not clear on is where the Scriptures state that apostles alone out of the Ephesians 4:11 gifts would NOT continue to exist. There are definitely apostles other than the original ones mentioned in the Bible - for example, Paul (Romans 11:13, et.al)! Also Andronicus and Junias (Romans 16:7). Where does one draw the line? The Bible does not draw a line.

2. How one knows one is an apostle? Apostles carry a certain level of authority that others do not carry. I believe that you know you're a pastor if you have sheep, and you know you're an apostle if you are able to impart ministry, understand the interworkings of a church body, and find that other ministers seek out your wisdom. It also seems to me that many signs and manifestations follow true apostles (2 Cor.12:12). Oh, and then there are the sufferings..... (see 2 Cor.11)

3. How an apostle differs from a missionary according to the Bible? An apostle can be and often is a missionary. But a regular missionary will not be in a foundation-laying position in the church-plant, and will not find himself imparting ministry. He/she probably won't have as many signs and manifestations following him. I have been involved in church-planting, but that doesn't make me an apostle; however, the man who began that work in South-Central Siberia that actually continues to this day - I believe he's an apostle. In this way (among others) an apostle is like a father. He begets something that continues to live.

4. Where are the apostles of the early 2nd century and beyond? As I said before, I know some apostles. It's not that unusual. If there are "levels" of apostles, doesn't it follow that you can't have a "level four" if there is no "level three"? I'm not sure what is meant by "levels" of apostles.

5. Whether or not these apostles have the authority to write or determine Scripture. I don't see that authority written in Scripture.

What ultimately concerns me here is taking Biblical terms and redefining them anyway you want leads to the ability to make the Bible say anything you want, not just what it says. I don't think that's such a good thing.
Agreed. I think that happened in the RC church (with all due respect).

For example, if we take the qualification of an Elder, "husband of one wife" and extend "husband" to mean "men and common household pets", you end up with cats for Elders which destroys the original meaning of the passage. (For we all know that cats are the spawn of Satan...)
Okay, so now you're equating women with household pets and the spawn of Satan? I'm sorry, but that is nothing short of offensive! I take the qualification of an Elder "husband of one wife" to exclude polygamists and adulterers.

But if i'm the only one not understanding the apostle thing, please continue on. I don't want to hold up the discussion. I'm sure you're not. Most people in your denomination (and certain others) do not understand it.

BTW, gifts were passed on to others by laying on of hands by the Apostles in the 1st Century. I'm pretty sure this is not the only way people received spiritual gifts! It certainly isn't today! But then, you're a cessationist, right?

 

[Nadiine]

I don't think the Lord has changed His mind and I believe the 5 fold ministry is for today


Ephesians 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers.

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ

And to answer another question on here. Yes there is a differnce in a prophet and one who prophesys. Paul said he wished all of us would prophesy, which is simply prophesy. But he also said not all are prophets: that is a person who is called to be a prophet. We all have different callings in life

I agree with your post, and I don't understand why anyone would claim evangelism is "gone" today?

Prophets did more in the way of warning of sin and proclaiming God's truth to a nation/people who were in rebellion & turning away from God.
Not a real popular gift in today's church is it?

 

[Flame]

I think some "gifts" do exist today, but some do not exist in the same form as the first century.

I think my question was a valid one. The question was "Does the five-fold ministry still exist as in the 1st Century church?". I don't see any Apostles around (unless the definition of "Apostle" is radically different from which I am thinking...) so I would have to say, no it does not. Now if we want to discuss "5-1" that might be worth persuing, but the Lord's Church does operate under different circumstances than in the 1st Century.

I think you are right when you say prophets did more than just predict random events. Someone once said that prophets "forth-told" as much as they "fore-told". For example, OT prophets told the people how things were, and how God felt about what they were doing. And that is a (I would argue THE) major part of being a prophet.

Which brings up an interesting question: Without naming names, how often must a "Prophet of God" be right in his/her predictions to be considered a "Prophet"? Always? 99%? 90%? 75%? 50%?
I would think that if you believed that prophesy still exists in the 1st century form that would be a very important question to consider. Otherwise, how do you know this person comes from God? And an even scarier thought, "How do you know that what they are saying comes from God?"?

The scriptures clearly state that God is the same yesterday, today, & forever. I would offer out that neither God nor his gifts have changed. The world however has changed thereby the way Gods gifts are used have conformed to the worlds changes. Example: Prophets used to minister to nations and not individuals. Todaqy if someone stood and said i have a message from God to the United States, He (or she) would be comitted, scrutinyzed, and in general torn apart in the press. Therefore prophets now operate on a different scale such as to individuals and chuches. As for how you know if they are real, another gift is mentioned in the Bible. That gift being desrnment. As for how many times being right5, IF a prophet is a true prophet, and can keep his own opinions from getting in the way, he won't be wrong.

 

[Nadiine]

The scriptures clearly state that God is the same yesterday, today, & forever. I would offer out that neither God nor his gifts have changed. The world however has changed thereby the way Gods gifts are used have conformed to the worlds changes. Example: Prophets used to minister to nations and not individuals. Todaqy if someone stood and said i have a message from God to the United States, He (or she) would be comitted, scrutinyzed, and in general torn apart in the press. Therefore prophets now operate on a different scale such as to individuals and chuches. As for how you know if they are real, another gift is mentioned in the Bible. That gift being desrnment. As for how many times being right5, IF a prophet is a true prophet, and can keep his own opinions from getting in the way, he won't be wrong.

I agree with w/ most of your post.

I agree God doesn't change, nor do His gifts, but His methods change and so did His covenants.

And I agree that Prophets are mostly to entire nations. Do we know of any prophets who warn the USA? I know John Hagee has spoken of these types of things (but he's laughed at).
I don't believe prophecy is "foretelling' anymore becuz God has already given us His FULL revelation.
The mysteries are already revealed.
I'm always leary of 'fortellers' & to date, I know of none who have been 100% correct in their prophecies.

Prophets mainly exhort people to obey and seek the Lord imo. (and they were never popular).

 

[Flame]

I agree with w/ most of your post.

I agree God doesn't change, nor do His gifts, but His methods change and so did His covenants.

And I agree that Prophets are mostly to entire nations. Do we know of any prophets who warn the USA? I know John Hagee has spoken of these types of things (but he's laughed at).
I don't believe prophecy is "foretelling' anymore becuz God has already given us His FULL revelation.
The mysteries are already revealed.
I'm always leary of 'fortellers' & to date, I know of none who have been 100% correct in their prophecies.

Prophets mainly exhort people to obey and seek the Lord imo. (and they were never popular).

I guess what i was trying to say didn't get fully across. I apologize for not being clear enough. But we are saying the same things. You example of John is a good one. But i'm sure you have noticed the Government isn't listening. God is not a point of consideration for Government anymore and IF i politicion proclaims his belief until recently it hurt him. The bad part is, I can see the same thing having happened in Soddum and Gomarha. (Forgove spelling)

 

[JDIBe]

What ultimately concerns me here is taking Biblical terms and redefining them anyway you want leads to the ability to make the Bible say anything you want, not just what it says. I don't think that's such a good thing.
Agreed. I think that happened in the RC church (with all due respect).

No offense taken, but please elaborate.

For example, if we take the qualification of an Elder, "husband of one wife" and extend "husband" to mean "men and common household pets", you end up with cats for Elders which destroys the original meaning of the passage. (For we all know that cats are the spawn of Satan...)
Okay, so now you're equating women with household pets and the spawn of Satan? I'm sorry, but that is nothing short of offensive! I take the qualification of an Elder "husband of one wife" to exclude polygamists and adulterers.

I don't know why you are offended. I did not mention women at all in this statement and certainly not equating them with household pets. I still stand by my original statement about cats though....

BTW, gifts were passed on to others by laying on of hands by the Apostles in the 1st Century. I'm pretty sure this is not the only way people received spiritual gifts! It certainly isn't today! But then, you're a cessationist, right?

Yes, I believe certain gifts are without meaning today as we have the full revelation of the Gospel. There is quite a bit in the Scriptures to support that view and historical evidence backs that up very clearly.

After some quick searching on the forum I found there is a thread in the Anabaptist forum dealing with Apostles. (Not started or contributed to by me in any way.) Is the information in this thread accurate as to the beginning of the Apostolic Movement? The concept seems to be a rather modern movement.

 

[Flame]

No offense taken, but please elaborate.



I don't know why you are offended. I did not mention women at all in this statement and certainly not equating them with household pets. I still stand by my original statement about cats though....



Yes, I believe certain gifts are without meaning today as we have the full revelation of the Gospel. There is quite a bit in the Scriptures to support that view and historical evidence backs that up very clearly.

After some quick searching on the forum I found there is a thread in the Anabaptist forum dealing with Apostles. (Not started or contributed to by me in any way.) Is the information in this thread accurate as to the beginning of the Apostolic Movement? The concept seems to be a rather modern movement.

who has full revelation and understanding? In my belief, no one. and even if full revelation is true there are no uses for the gifts anymore??

 

[TamaraLynne]

I was told by God in a dream that I was an apostle.

I'm not extremely intelligent and I don't know all there is to know. I do know that I am formed by God. I am who I am because of him. Sometimes I keep thinking I need to become more intelligent .......that I need to know more and more in order for God to use me. Like a clay pot trying to form itself................how silly of me.

God has formed us and does use us just the way we are. I probably will never be someone important in the worlds eyes................and the role God has planned for me might be small to some..................

when foundations are laid...........you can't have pieces missing. And some who have been called to be apostles will see how some parts of the truth are not being taught..................

Like I said...................I feel pretty small........and I don't know exactly how God is going to use me.........but I will take it one day at a time as I keep my eyes on Jesus.

Love
Tam

 

[JDIBe]

who has full revelation and understanding? In my belief, no one. and even if full revelation is true there are no uses for the gifts anymore??

Each of us may not have full understanding of it, but the Word of God is complete and perfect. That is the source we go to.

There are plenty of uses for some gifts, (teaching, etc.) and I agree they still are in use today. However, miraculous gifts seemed to have one purpose: to verify that what the speaker said came from God. ("....for the Jews require a sign...")

Think about it.

If someone spoke something, how would you verify it? Well, you would look for a sign and check to see if it lined up with the Scriptures. But if it lined up with the Scriptures, why would you need a sign?
And even worse, what would happen if there was a sign and IT DIDN'T line up with Scripture? Who do you believe then? If you say Scripture, then you're right back where you started.

Please don't take what I say as I don't believe the Holy Spirit is INCAPABLE of working this way today. I'm only saying, in my experience and reading through the history of the Church, He appears to work in a "quieter" way through individuals today. God is the same today as yesterday, but HOW He works with His people has changed throughout the ages. (no sabbath, sabbath, no sabbath again, levitical priests, no levitical priests, animal sacrifices, no animal sacrifices, no tongues, tongues)

I have a friend who left our church to start his own. He claims to speak to the H.S. directly and prophesy. I asked him once, "Have you ever gotten a revelation that was NOT from God?" He told me yes. Making the assumption that what he says is true for a second, that scares me.

Particularly when some "Prophet" has a history of missing quite often with vague predictions. (seems like most prophesies in the Bible were very specific) Kind of makes me wonder if it was just personal opinion getting in the way or something much worse...