No Prophets!

[Flame]

Each of us may not have full understanding of it, but the Word of God is complete and perfect. That is the source we go to.

There are plenty of uses for some gifts, (teaching, etc.) and I agree they still are in use today. However, miraculous gifts seemed to have one purpose: to verify that what the speaker said came from God. ("....for the Jews require a sign...")

Think about it.

If someone spoke something, how would you verify it? Well, you would look for a sign and check to see if it lined up with the Scriptures. But if it lined up with the Scriptures, why would you need a sign?
And even worse, what would happen if there was a sign and IT DIDN'T line up with Scripture? Who do you believe then? If you say Scripture, then you're right back where you started.

Please don't take what I say as I don't believe the Holy Spirit is INCAPABLE of working this way today. I'm only saying, in my experience and reading through the history of the Church, He appears to work in a "quieter" way through individuals today. God is the same today as yesterday, but HOW He works with His people has changed throughout the ages. (no sabbath, sabbath, no sabbath again, levitical priests, no levitical priests, animal sacrifices, no animal sacrifices, no tongues, tongues)

I have a friend who left our church to start his own. He claims to speak to the H.S. directly and prophesy. I asked him once, "Have you ever gotten a revelation that was NOT from God?" He told me yes. Making the assumption that what he says is true for a second, that scares me.

Particularly when some "Prophet" has a history of missing quite often with vague predictions. (seems like most prophesies in the Bible were very specific) Kind of makes me wonder if it was just personal opinion getting in the way or something much worse...

Ok, then lets go through the five one at a time. You tell if you think it is still in play or not and why. This could be fun and i belive would be good. It is my belief they are all still in play today and i believe i can give examples of each. I think we both already agree on teaching obviously we know that one still exists. While i agree on a major level, prophecy has rather become fortelling which as you say we already through the word know what will happen, I believe it exists on a smaller scale, more individual then national.

 

[Nadiine]

For example, if we take the qualification of an Elder, "husband of one wife" and extend "husband" to mean "men and common household pets", you end up with cats for Elders which destroys the original meaning of the passage. (For we all know that cats are the spawn of Satan...)

Hey, you must be a prophet! have you met my cats or something?

I've already been on a thread similar to this & frankly I don't see anyone on either side coming up with convincing enough arguments to entirely prove their position well enough to sway me either way.

I see evangelism, teaching & preaching alive & well today... I'd be more interested in just the prophet & apostleship positions in this thread than trying to say ALL of them are entirely removed.

How about some clearcut definitions of what a prophet & apostle is & does after Christ's full revelation is given?

 

[JDIBe]

Ok, then lets go through the five one at a time. You tell if you think it is still in play or not and why. This could be fun and i belive would be good. It is my belief they are all still in play today and i believe i can give examples of each. I think we both already agree on teaching obviously we know that one still exists. While i agree on a major level, prophecy has rather become fortelling which as you say we already through the word know what will happen, I believe it exists on a smaller scale, more individual then national.

Ok. Sounds good to me. I've got to tell you my current beliefs seem to line up pretty well with Nadiine's above, though.

Pick one, any one and let's get started...

 

[Flame]

Ok. Sounds good to me. I've got to tell you my current beliefs seem to line up pretty well with Nadiine's above, though.

Pick one, any one and let's get started...

The concept of the five-fold ministry comes from Ephesians 4:11, "It was he who gave some to be (1) apostles, some to be (2) prophets, some to be (3) evangelists, and some to be (4) pastors and (5) teachers."

The

 

[Flame]

Ok. Sounds good to me. I've got to tell you my current beliefs seem to line up pretty well with Nadiine's above, though.

Pick one, any one and let's get started...

The concept of the five-fold ministry comes from Ephesians 4:11, "It was he who gave some to be (1) apostles, some to be (2) prophets, some to be (3) evangelists, and some to be (4) pastors and (5) teachers."

The easiest way to proceed would be to spell out which ones you think on longer exist.

 

[JDIBe]

Well, I would have to say at this point...

I definately don't believe Apostles exist and...
The gift of prophesy still exists, but not in the overt, miraculous way it did in the 1st century.

Evangelists, pastors, and teachers definately are with us today and have been continuously from the 1st Century to today.

So I guess that's a 3.5 out of 5.

 

[TamaraLynne]

Hmmmmm............I saw Jesus as operating in all the offices. And with Jesus living in us then I would say that we as indivduals through faith would be operating in all the offices to some degree. But we are given an office that we operate the strongest in..........because that is how God made us. And then we all come together as a body(church) and join together the parts.......eyes,ears,hands,feet,etc..........and when we all work together..........we all grow as individuals(saints)

But I could be wrong......I have never heard anyone talk of this.........just my thoughts as I read about the offices.

 

[tturt]

Someone had posted wanting to know how someone knew if they were an apostle:

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

 

[tturt]

posted: "He claims to speak to the H.S. directly and prophesy."

The Holy Spirit speaks to all of us - some are better at listening than others. Private worship time is an excellent time to give our undivided attention to the Lord and listen to what He has to say.

 

[Nadiine]

Hmmmmm............I saw Jesus as operating in all the offices. And with Jesus living in us then I would say that we as indivduals through faith would be operating in all the offices to some degree. But we are given an office that we operate the strongest in..........because that is how God made us. And then we all come together as a body(church) and join together the parts.......eyes,ears,hands,feet,etc..........and when we all work together..........we all grow as individuals(saints)

But I could be wrong......I have never heard anyone talk of this.........just my thoughts as I read about the offices.

I'd like to be able to go along with this line of thought, but if it were valid, we'd also be doing the same miracles Jesus did... etc.

The verse also says He gave some to be apostles,..... not all. But I think we should be focusing on what we KNOW we are [if saved]: Ambassadors of Christ. Our daily witness for Him is important. Are we operating in that knowledge?
We all want LOFTY positions in God's army, but what are we doing with the simpler positions we already have? Are we worthy of bearing His Holy name? (to whom much is given, much is required)

But all of us having different positions/gifts fits perfectly with the body parts; how we're all one body with MANY different parts that all work together in our different gifts.
We aren't all apostles, or all healers, or teachers etc.

 

[JDIBe]

Someone had posted wanting to know how someone knew if they were an apostle:

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Wouldn't this apply to Elders (Overseers, Pastors, Bishops) whose qualifications are mentioned in I Ti 3:1-7 and Tit 1:5-9?

Acts 20:17-28

17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called to him the elders of the church.
18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye yourselves know, from the first day that I set foot in Asia, after what manner I was with you all the time,
19 serving the Lord with all lowliness of mind, and with tears, and with trials which befell me by the plots of the Jews;
20 how I shrank not from declaring unto you anything that was profitable, and teaching you publicly, and from house to house,
21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
23 save that the Holy Spirit testifieth unto me in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
24 But I hold not my life of any account as dear unto myself, so that I may accomplish my course, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I went about preaching the kingdom, shall see my face no more.
26 Wherefore I testify unto you this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
27 For I shrank not from declaring unto you the whole counsel of God.
28 Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood.

 

[pdfiddler]

I'll chime in. "FOR THE EQUIPPING OF THE SAINTS FOR THE WORK OF SERVICE,TO THE BUILDING UP OF THE BODY OF CHRIST;UNTIL WE ALL ATTAIN TO THE UNITY OF THE FAITH,AND OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE SON OF GOD,TO A MATURE MAN,TO THE MEASURE OF THE STATURE,WHICH BELONGS TO THE FULNESS OF CHRIST. I thought I would spell this out since most of you seem to be missing this part. Are the saints fully equipped ? Is the work of service finished? Is the body of Christ built up? Have we all attained to the unity? Do we all have the faith? Do we all have knowledge of the son of God?( some here seem to claim they do ,by there posts anyway) Are we all mature? Do we all have the stature, Do we all have the fullness of Christ?(again, a few here seem to be claiming they do,unless I read it wrong) What say you?

 

[Nadiine]

I'll chime in. "FOR THE EQUIPPING OF THE SAINTS FOR THE WORK OF SERVICE,TO THE BUILDING UP OF THE BODY OF CHRIST;UNTIL WE ALL ATTAIN TO THE UNITY OF THE FAITH,AND OFTHE KNOWLEDGE OF THE SON OF GOD,TO A MATURE MAN,TO THE MEASURE OF THE STATURE,WHICH BELONGS TO THE FULNESS OF CHRIST. I thought I would spell this out sinse most of you seem to be missing this part. Are the saints fully equiped ? Is the work of service finished? Is the body of Christ built up? Have we all attained to the unity? Do we all have the faith? Do we all have knowledge of the son of God?( some here seem to claim they do ,by there posts anyway) Are we all mature? Do we all have the stature, Do we all have the fullness of Christ?(again, a few here seem to be claiming they do,unless I read it wrong) What say you?

Why do I feel like I'm being egged on to debate this?

To me, debate should be a natural flow by those in it; not cold prompting to STEER ME in a desired direction.
It feels baited or like I'm a circus animal jumping thru a hoop or something.


I think I'll unsubscribe.

 

[TamaraLynne]

I would say no..........we are not yet fully equipped........I know I struggle. But as I struggle I am still filled with joy because God is with me. I hunger for all of us to move into the offices God has appointed for us.......

I know some churches operate more fully in the offices...........but I have noticed where I am from the pastor seems to try to do it all. But I encounter walls from everyone it seems.

Sorry.......................just what I have been feeling.

Love
Tam

 

[TamaraLynne]

I haven't been doing my part either

 

[pdfiddler]

Nadiine- Again,you're not the center of this thread. I'm talking to all who will listen here. Chill!

 

[Nadiine]

Nadiine- Again,you're not the center of this thread. I'm talking to all who will listen here. Chill!

I am chilled Pd, I didn't imply or claim that I was the center of this thread, nor would I want to be.
I stated my opinion on it like you have.
thank u

 

[pdfiddler]

More than a position or a man,they are all attributes of the fulness of Christ himself,not titles. A man in any givin day or week could minister as a apostle to some there or a prophet to others here. Maybe a shepherd to that one there. An avangelist to a group over there somewhere and to teach here to another group of people,all in the same week. Someone else may only have a calling in one or two of these attributes(or gifts). He does say He doesn't give it all to any one man (or woman). Yes, I do believe a woman can have any one of these ministries except apostle.The office of a apostle is a fathering ministry.

 

[tturt]

I Posted: Someone had posted wanting to know how someone knew if they were an apostle:

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

JDIBe: yes, agree this verse applies to everyone in the five fold ministry. I posted it without elaborating because some people would say I’m changing the scripture. Some people want to see the word (in this case overseer) right there in the scripture otherwise they don’t think it’s accurate.

Pdfiddler: didn’t realize that “equipping saints” needed to be stated - this is the movement that God is extending to the church currently b/c this is one way the church prepares for the revival.

 

[JDIBe]

[F Posted: Someone had posted wanting to know how someone knew if they were an apostle:[/FONT]

[F 20:28[/FONT][F Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.[/FONT]

[F yes, agree this verse applies to everyone in the five fold ministry. I posted it without elaborating because some people would say I’m changing the scripture. Some people want to see the word (in this case overseer) right there in the scripture otherwise they don’t think it’s accurate.[/FONT]

tturt,

I don't think you're trying to change the Scripture and I appreciate you (all of you actually) taking the time to use it to prove your point. The version I am quoting (ASV) uses the word "bishop" which is synonomous with "elder" and "overseer" but not imo, Apostle. Notice the context, especially verse 17...

17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called to him the elders of the church. (your version disciples...)

Who is Paul speaking to here? They are not the Apostles, they are not at Ephesus. v28 is directed to these same people in v17, who are the Elders of the churches around Ephesus. So if anything, you could make the case that v28 applies to Elders, but not Apostles.

From what I'm seeing, there were the 12 Apostles (actually 14 now that I think about it) and then nothing is ever mentioned about them again until the mid 1990's. How am I supposed to believe this is not a man-made "office" with a Biblical name when it is only 10 years old? Do you see my problem?