No One Man Pastor ministry over all

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,385
1,750
✟167,189.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
No One man pastor ministry over all.

Another hinderance to the function of God’s order in the church, is this one man “Pastor ministry” that has dominated Christendom for a long time. This tradition of men is contrary to God’s order of plurality of ministering elders in every church and various giftings to the body of Christ. We read in Ephesians 4:11 that God gave ”gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:”, and when “they had ordained them elders in every church”(Acts 14:23). In God’s order there are more giftings than just pastors, and we never read of a one man pastor over a church in the New Testament always a plurality of elders! Yet unfortunately today this one man dominates Christendom everywhere!
The one man pastor ministry tradition quenches the spirit in others and hinders the body from edifying itself under Christ headship in the gatherings and the mutual edification where all can use their gifts in God’s order (Ephesians 4:15,16, 1 Corinthians 12:7-25, 1 Peter 4:10,11, 1 Corinthians 14:26-37, 1 Thessalonians 5:11, Romans 12etc). How can the order of God be seen when the entire gathering is dominated by one man and body life is hindered? At best these large meetings are similar to evangelistic meetings or a big bible study as I said before. But this tradition has hindered church meetings and the order of God among us and the body life greatly. How can “every one have”, when only the Pastor is allowed to speak and minister? This man made tradition also draws many to gather around men and certain ministries of these men rather than gathering around Christ and the various “programs” they develop. How many today gather around these men and certain doctrines and denominations instead of Christ and His working in every part of the body of Christ
In these traditions, there has been a massive schism in the body of Christ, between the so called, “Clergy”, and the “Laity”. This is a false traition and not based on the scritpures of truth.
The word “clergy”, comes from the Greek word “kleros”, meaning “heritage, inhertitance or lot”, showing that believers are the inheritance, or heritage of God and it is used that way in scripture as we read ,

“ Neither as being lords over God’s heritage [Kleros], but being examples to the flock.” (1 Peter 5:3).

The word “laity” means comes from the word “laos”, meaning, “a people”, and it is used that way in scripture.

“And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people [laos].” ( 2 Corinthians 6:16)

There is no such thing as a clergy and latiy division. The “kleros:, and the “laity” both refer to the body of Christ. We are the inheritance of God and the people of God.
Again we see that mans traditions and order has caused a schism in the body. This schism is mentioned in in 1 Cor 12 and other places, this verse is in reference to men not allowing the body to function as it should, and by causing such a divide between the body and the man at the front called the “pastor”, or the head pastor, senior elder pastor etc. This creates a dysfunction and error in their order. It hinders Christ from working and moving in all the offices in the gatherings.
All the body should have the same care one for another and we are all brothers and sisters. This very unity of the body in the Spirit is part of the goal for ministry. But putting one gifting above others hinders this.

Mutual edification, not just a pastor gifting

Clearly in scripture we see the exact oppostie of a one man pastor ministry, as we have already pointed out. Here are just a few of the verses that show mutual edification of the body and not a just one man pastor ministry.

“And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:” (Ephesians 4:11, 12)

Clearly, there are more than pastors alone for the work mentioned here, yet somehow this one man pastor gift has dominated Christendom for a long time.

“But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.” (Ephesians 4:15, 16)

As this verse has already been mentioned it is seen again in this context, showing clearly that this work of Christ as the head is not dependant on a one man pastor ministry or any man for that matter. Christ is the one who works “effectually”, in the measure of “every part”. Not just in a one man pastor ministry or selective elders alone.

“How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.” (1 Corinthians 14;26)

“every one of you hath”,
this is so clear here in showing that the ministry of the body in edifying itself was not by just one man called the “pastor”. This section deos not read, “if the pastor hath”. To have something from God is the true way to edify eachother, and this section would connect with Pauls words to the Ehpesians 4 when he said that Christ works in every part of the body. . When God gives, then we have, and so it is Christ that leads the meetings in the truest sense, as the head of the church. This is the commandment of God (1 Corinthians 14:26- 37, 38)

“But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:” ( 1 Corinthians 14:24)


Here again we see that all can prophesy, this is also related to Gods working to convict and judge sin in the camp. and in unbelievers among us. many times a man may even be sharing a word or a teaching and his words may come forth that will convict the hearers to such a degree that they will wonder how the person speaking knew these things about them. When God is moving and working all things are possible. This again is the commandment of God (1 Corinthians 14:24- 37, 38)

“If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.” ( 1 Corinthians 14:27)

Any man speaking here shows the freedom of the body. This any man is not just the pastor. This is the commandment of God (1 Corinthians 14:27- 37, 38)

Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.” ( 1 Corinthians 14:29)

The prophets can speak also, not just the pastor or a few elders. This shows God’s order in the body and His working as we wait on him and for his revelation and leading. This again is the commandment of God (1 Corinthians 14:29- 37, 38)

“If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.” (1 Corintians 14:30, 31)

Notice that this passage does not say “if anything be revealed to the pastor alone”. No, all may have a revelation and prophesy. Prophecy is to “forthtell, and fortell, and to speak under unction”. Prophesy is connected to “anything” that is revealed. It is also as paul said “...he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.” ( 1 Corinthians 14:3). It is also for convincing and judging as we have discussed (1 Cor. 14:24).

“But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.” ( 1 Corinthians 12:7).

God would not gives this manifestation to “every man”, if he did not expect every man to function in the body somehow. Again, we do not read “ the manifestation of the Spirit is given to the pastor only”.

“But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you....25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.” ( 1 Corinthians 12:20, 21,25)

But a schism is created by dividing the pastor gifting from the other gifts and functions of the body as we gather. Some may say this is not specifically speaking of a gathering of believers, but yes, it can extend to all aspects of the body. We read in verses 12:8-10, of wisdom, knowledge, prophecy and tongues etc. These manifestations of the Spirit can be seen in the meetings also. It is ot men that can order this, Gods order is the only way for such a manifestation of the Spirit as Paul said,

“But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.” ( 1 Corinthians 12:11).

“Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.” ( 1 Thessalonians 5:11)

The “one anothering” is part of God’s order for the mutual edification of eachother in Christ. Without this one anothering, we would not have proper growth and building up of the body thus creating a weak and dysfunctional body. The pastor cannot do all this, and was never intended to. To even try to will lead them to be overwhelmed and over burdened. There are many “one another” verses in the New Testament, here are just a few, (1 Thessalonians 4:18, Hebrews 10:25, James 5:16, Ephesians 5:12, Romans 14:19, Romans 15:14, 1 Corinthians 11:33, 1 Corinthians 16:20)

“Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.” (Colossians 3:16)

Where in this verse do we see a one man pastor gifting doing most if not all the ministry to the body? No, we see that it is the word of Christ dwelling in us that builds us up and we speak forth from this. This is God’s order again, and His leading us and working in us.

“Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.” ( Hebrews 10:15)

How often have ministers said the first part of this verse about not forsaking the assembly of ourselves, but they do not stress the last part of “exhorting one another”. This “one another” aspect is vital to the assembly of ourselves together. This is not defining a one man pastor ministry, but instead the body ministry to one another as Christ. And this is more needful as we see the day approaching, which we can see that it is.

“For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation:” (Romans 12:4-8)

Again, as believers we are members one of another and so can edify eachother. To limit this one anothering to a single man called “the pastor” is not sound and can greatly hinder the body of Christ. This aspect of the body spoken here in Romans 12, can extend to the daily lives of believers and not only to the gatherings of the saints into one place, but it also extends to the assemblies of the church in the houses, for we read of the body edification and teaching and prophecy and exhorting etc.
Also the way for all this to take place is when we are dead to self and pick up our cross. Paul speaks of this in verse 12:1, and said, “that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.”. When we are dead to self the life of Christ can be manifest in our mortal bodies ( 2 Cor 4:10,11). Paul even said to the Corintians “For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.” (1 Corinthians 2:2). To know Christ crucified and to be crucified with him, is how we are able to walk in God’s order, in the Spirit. This is how the life of Christ may be made manifest in our meetings and lives.

No Need for any man to teach

So we do not need men to teach us in reality, for God does it directly? And where is man’s order in this? Scripture reveals this to us,

“But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. “ (1 John 2:27)

“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.” (Romans 8:14)


As John clearly said, it is the anointing that teaches us all things and not just some things in our walk. He wrote this against some men that were seducing the saints (1 John 2:26). He uses this truth against all attacks and it is a sure guard against deception. And this truth is espescially needed in our time as well, with many false teacher everywhere and great deception and doctrines of devils abounding, not to mention mans order. John uses this anointing which is the word of God, and Christ in us as a sure bulwark against all deceivers. Some may say, "but anyone can claim to be listening to the anointing". True enough but this is still the way to know and discern all things. The anointing of the Spirit was in the writers of the scripture and so the Spirit will guide us into all truth as well. We also have the body of Christ and every member who has the anointing to bear witness to the truth.
Some will immediately say, But didnt God give teacher gifts?" . Yes he did and the GIFT of teaching is as God leads them. We do not listen so much to the man but the truth and witness in our spirit as they speak. It is not a mans own wisdom we listen for. Paul said he did not come to them with the eloquency of speech but in the demonstration of the Spirit and power. And we know that the word of God is quick and powerful.
All believers must be led by the Spirit to follow God’s order in this way. Even those who God gives the gift of teaching to must be led this way. It is the anointing that reveals all things to us and this witness is in our hearts where God dwells. As we wait on God, listen in our hearts and minds, and are led of his Spirit we will have the kind of ears that hear and eyes that see.
In the church gatherings this waiting and listening is very important to be able to follow God’s order and to be led by the Spirit in all things as Christ effectually works in us, and for that door of utterance he gives as we walk in the gift of God and His grace (Romans 12:7,8, Romans 8:14, 1 Corinthians 1:5, Ephesians 6;18, Colossians 4:2, 2 Timothy 4:5, 1 Peter 4:10,11, Colossians 4:3, Ecclesiastes 5:1,2, Proverbs 16:1, Hebrews 13:5, Hebrews 2:Isaiah 40:31, Isaiah 41:1, 1 Corinthians 14:1, 30, Ephesians 4:16, 21). And all things must be in line with Holy scriptures, which were given by the same Spirit, and who inspired men to write what we have today (2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 1:20)
Sadly though, many believe that God does not lead us this way today, and many teach that we cannot hear God’s voice today except through scripture, and so they have come to rely on mans wisdom and natural means to know the things of God, contrary to Paul's words where he said, “the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them” (1 Corinthias 2:14).
Even among those that do teach more acceptance to spiritual gifts today, they still often rely on human wisdom and mans eloquence with a dominant leader over the body rather than the anointing of God to teach all things..
While we are to test all things by Holy Scripture and God has given us scripture for our perfecting and furnishing, and we magnify the scriptures, still, without the Lord in us and his working effectually we can do nothing and know nothing (John 15:5, 1 Cor. 2:14). Even if men rely only on scripture, they will find themselves very much like the pharisees, who had the scripture and yet missed the living Word, Jesus who was right in front of them. We have God directly working in us to make us perfect (Hebrews 13:20,21) , the body of believers and God’s working in them, to make us perfect, (Ephesians 4:10-16) and the Holy scriptures to make us perfect (1 Timothy 3:16,17) all are needed as we walk in the Spirit.
But God has not ceased from his working today and He continues to work in every believer through Christ, it is the word and anointing that builds us up and teaches us all things. God still speaks to the hearts of all His children, as it is written “To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.” (Hebrews 3:5). To know God is eternal life ( John 17:??) and how can believers know God unless they can hear his voice and his word. In the spirit we can ears to hear and eyes to see. and we see and hear Christ the Word of God (Matthew 13:16, Galatians 4:6, Colossians 3:15,16, 2 Thessalonians 3:5, Revelation 3:13,20, ).
God also equips every member severally as he wills with giftings and power, ( 1 Cor 12:7-25)-?? All the gifts of God as well have not ceased for the church, and we are always in need of every member of the body (1 Corinthians 14:26-37, Ephesians 4:16, 1 Peter 4:10,11). But this is too large a discussion for here
 
Last edited:

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,023
992
Melbourne, Australia
✟51,094.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
As much as the notion of there being a supposed pastoral Office which many individuals become the pastor/priest is little more than human tradition; when I scanned down to your following remark I realised that your position is not so much one that is theological but probably more the result of maybe hurts (be they justified or not) that you may have received. The Scriptures speak not only of the Office of the teacher but with how we must be teachable ourselves:

"So we do not need men to teach us in reality, for God does it directly? And where is man’s order in this? Scripture reveals this to us"
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I really don't care. One terrific pastor beats a collection of feuding amateurs--which is exactly what you'd get if a small to mid-sized congregation felt it had an obligation to keep one pastor on staff for every fifteen or so congregants.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rhamiel
Upvote 0

Gnarwhal

☩ Broman Catholic ☩
Oct 31, 2008
20,398
12,089
37
N/A
✟434,190.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
We cannot go it alone. We just can't. If we do, we err. Submitting to a [good] pastor and allowing ourselves to be instructed and corrected is how we stay theologically and practically accountable as Christians. Pure and simple.
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,385
1,750
✟167,189.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
We cannot go it alone. We just can't. If we do, we err. Submitting to a [good] pastor and allowing ourselves to be instructed and corrected is how we stay theologically and practically accountable as Christians. Pure and simple.

No we don't go it alone we all need every member of the body to edify eachother. Ministry is not just pastors, God gave apostles, prophets, evangelsist, pastors and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, we need all the gifts to be perfected not just one man over all.

No matter how we have been conditions through history and traditions of man, we must walk in the light of scripture and Gods order as shown n scripture. Elders plural in every church is Gods way and every member ministering the gift as God has given them to others. We stay theologically sound as the body is able to edify itself under Christ headship

read Ephesians 4:15,16 and even back to verse 11 again and consider.

and nowhere in the New testament do we ever read of one pastor gifting being made a title like pastor Bob etc. it is a gift and never do we see one man pastor ministry over a church in the NT. This tradition happened way back with Constantine and the traditions that followed that time in Rome and other places.
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,385
1,750
✟167,189.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I really don't care. One terrific pastor beats a collection of feuding amateurs--which is exactly what you'd get if a small to mid-sized congregation felt it had an obligation to keep one pastor on staff for every fifteen or so congregants.


No I have been in home meetings and planted them for many years and we had many mature brothers and sisters and wonderful teachings and depth beyond the milk of a religious forum. But this is not all the body need is teaching, We also need the revelation of God and all the gifts in the body. No matter how we like it we cannot say to one part of the body I have no need of you.

And never do we read of a one man pastor ministry over a whole church in the scripture, except in the negative with men like Diotrephes in 3rd John.

It is still true that we have no need that any man should teach us. The anointing teaches us all things. Yes God gives teachers and aposltles, prophets evangelist and pastors. But we listen for the word and the witness in our hearts.

Some are just listening to the eloquent man instead of waiting for God to reveal to them the gift s and revelation etc.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheMissingRib
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,385
1,750
✟167,189.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
As much as the notion of there being a supposed pastoral Office which many individuals become the pastor/priest is little more than human tradition; when I scanned down to your following remark I realised that your position is not so much one that is theological but probably more the result of maybe hurts (be they justified or not) that you may have received. The Scriptures speak not only of the Office of the teacher but with how we must be teachable ourselves:

"So we do not need men to teach us in reality, for God does it directly? And where is man’s order in this? Scripture reveals this to us"​


The pastor gift is not an office but a gift. It is not a title so much either, we don't read pastor Bob in the scripture we read things like Paul an apostle. But this is not a title. rather a gifting.

My understanding is not based upon bitter hurts that I have received, even though I have had many attacks by other and as Paul said apostles last as the offscouring of all things and despised etc. But what i speak of is sound in scripture. I speak clearly of the body edifying itself under Christ headship. This is how Jesus builds his church, from within us. This is why John directs them to the anointing in them to teach all things. All things means just that, "all things". So yes God gives other gifts to the body and a teacher is one of them. But we do not meed the mans understanding, rather we need to hear the word and the witness of truth in our hearts. Paul said that when they heard the word from him they dd not receive it as the word of men, but as it is in truth the word of God that effectually works in those that believe.

Gods order is in Christ as he leads us from within. Paul said to the Ephesian elders, that he commends them to God and to the word of His grace which is able to build them up. He did not commend them to a one man ministry gift over them all called the pastor. Paul also told the Colossians to let the word of Christ dwell in them richly teaching and admonishing one another...

my position is firmly grounded in scripture and the sound doctrine. This is related to God's order in the church , his set order.And how we ought to behave ourselves in the house of God, which is the church. The church is not a man made building or religious organization. The church is the called out assembly , the body of Christ , living stones a spiritual house.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheMissingRib
Upvote 0

Gnarwhal

☩ Broman Catholic ☩
Oct 31, 2008
20,398
12,089
37
N/A
✟434,190.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
No we don't go it alone we all need every member of the body to edify eachother. Ministry is not just pastors, God gave apostles, prophets, evangelsist, pastors and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, we need all the gifts to be perfected not just one man over all.

No matter how we have been conditions through history and traditions of man, we must walk in the light of scripture and Gods order as shown n scripture. Elders plural in every church is Gods way and every member ministering the gift as God has given them to others. We stay theologically sound as the body is able to edify itself under Christ headship

read Ephesians 4:15,16 and even back to verse 11 again and consider.

and nowhere in the New testament do we ever read of one pastor gifting being made a title like pastor Bob etc. it is a gift and never do we see one man pastor ministry over a church in the NT. This tradition happened way back with Constantine and the traditions that followed that time in Rome and other places.

A title defines a persons role, as in, it distinguishes their purpose from others. Not everyone is equipped to be a pastor. Some people who are pastors shouldn't be, and some who should, aren't. We're not a bunch of personal popes, at some level we have to submit to pastoral authority.

I read Ephesians 4 and it doesn't imply what you are suggesting.

There are several instances in the NT when people are described as overseers. The Greek word "overseer" is translated from is "episkopos" which is where we derive the word "episcopal" from. Episcopal means bishop, someone who has an oversight and authority over a group. Pastors, priests, whatever you want to call them have been an intricate and intentional component of God's church since the first century.
 
Upvote 0

Citizen of the Kingdom

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 31, 2006
44,350
14,508
Vancouver
Visit site
✟335,989.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I really don't care. One terrific pastor beats a collection of feuding amateurs--which is exactly what you'd get if a small to mid-sized congregation felt it had an obligation to keep one pastor on staff for every fifteen or so congregants.
I don't think the answer lays in having numerous pastors either, altho of course having youth pastor and children pastors is needed. My church has 2 unpaid pastors, each having to direct the service while the other is away conducting certain services elsewhere. However the members of the church are free to express anything that they feel is given to them at anytime in a orderly manner and it's respectfully treated.
For the first time we're now getting a paid pastor in as the other 2 are past retirement age so we'll wait and see if being paid brings a personal authority ;)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I suspect that the crux of this matter concerns whether or not there is any obligation to have multiple pastors. That's the OP's suggestion. While we know that the early church had a variety of elders of different roles and titles, the earliest churches faced challenges that changed over the years, and with that, so did the number of clergy. At times they expanded; at other times in church history they contracted. There is, however, nothing special in the number that any particular congregation chooses to have.
 
Upvote 0

Citizen of the Kingdom

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 31, 2006
44,350
14,508
Vancouver
Visit site
✟335,989.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The Op seems to me more concerned with exercising spiritual gifts amongst the congregation ... my email contained this blog post aimed at women in the church setting but it applies equally to all members of the Body.
http://www.thebettermom.com/blog/2015/6/27/how-satan-confuses-women-to-disable-the-church
(lol I was put off by the title because it seemed so cliche but the content of recognising others gifts is an important part of being in the body)
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,385
1,750
✟167,189.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
A title defines a persons role, as in, it distinguishes their purpose from others. Not everyone is equipped to be a pastor. Some people who are pastors shouldn't be, and some who should, aren't. We're not a bunch of personal popes, at some level we have to submit to pastoral authority.

I read Ephesians 4 and it doesn't imply what you are suggesting.

There are several instances in the NT when people are described as overseers. The Greek word "overseer" is translated from is "episkopos" which is where we derive the word "episcopal" from. Episcopal means bishop, someone who has an oversight and authority over a group. Pastors, priests, whatever you want to call them have been an intricate and intentional component of God's church since the first century.


No the gifts are apostles prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers. These are not titles The office you speak of or function of an overseer, is simply the elders who watch over others and are able to exhort the gainsayers with sound doctrine and who know the order of God and see those who are out of this order. The order of God is his free ministry through the body as we gather and there are other aspects to the order in the meal together and women's roles and elders etc. But elders are not in a authority as the gentile authority are. Jesus rebuked that thinking. Jesus said,

"25But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. 26But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:" Matthew 20:25-27

this way that jesus rebuked is exactly how many assemblies today are set up, the great ones among them are over them in authority as the pastors Popes Reverends etc. This is not right. This order of mans authority over others came in with Constantine in around 325 Ad. He patterned the newly formed pagan temples as churches (unbiblically) and set up priest or leaders over others. This high role of a man over others was common among the gentile authority and it crept into the church around this time. In the NT we don't see one man exalting himself or having preeminance over others, except in the negative. Diotrephes 3rd John 9,10 was one of those John warned against. Paul also met such men in 2 Corinthians 11, and he said they were false men who exalted themselves over others and devoured them and took from them and smote them on the cheek. This was a false Lording over role. Peter also said elders were not to be as Lord over others. A lord is someone who forces you to submit to them and who has dominion over you in an exalted place. Paul also warned for three years night and day with tears about men that would rise up from among the believers and draw away disciples after themselves. So what did Paul say to these Ephesians elders in Acts 20? he said that he commended them to God and to the word of His grace which is able to build them up. He did not commend them to some man over them or a pastor or overseer. When Paul wrote to the churches he almost always wrote to the whole church to the brothers and sister. Not to a pastor.

We never see one man over a church in the positive role as a Pastor. The pastor is a gift, and a function for the body, Paul even says God set some in the church apostles first, prophets second and then teachers, he doesn't even mention pastors there. But how come this one man pastor role has dominated Christendom? This is because of the confusion that took place in Constantines time around 325 Ad and on.

Ephesiand 4 speaks directl;y to what i am saying as well as 1 Cor 14:26-38, and Romans 12 and 1 Cor 12 etc.In Ephesians 4 we read ,

"...and gave gifts unto men. 9...And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:"

First notice that these are GIFTS, not titles or offices so much. Next notice that he gave more than just the pastors. These gifts are for the edifying of the body of Christ. This word "edifying" means to build up as a house builder. So Christ working in the body in these gifts will build his church. He builds his church from within us.

Then we read,

"But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love."

Here we see that Christ as the head also works in EVERY part of the body. This is his effectual working and so every part supplies to the others in order that the body might "edify" itself in love. This is the function of the church in Christ and as he is the head. But if men dont hold the head Christ they will quench the spirit and function of the body which is for mutual edification. We read this in Colossians 2:19

"And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God."


Paul warns believers that they need to be connected to Christ the head and beware of any man draws them away from this, he said,

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:" Colossians 2:8

Paul was aware of the men that were seducing them as John was at his time and they both wrote about this error . paul said

"And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. 5For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ." Colossians 2:4,5

Paul said that they had a spiritual order from God and this was how they were to continue in the faith and gather in . But others were drawing them from this and so he warned them.

John also wrote against those that were seducing the believers and who may have acted like they needed them to be over them and teach them. To rebuke this error and warn of these seducers John said,

"These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." 1 John 2:26,27

You said,

"Pastors, priests, whatever you want to call them have been an intricate and intentional component of God's church since the first century.["

No in the NT we never read of a pastor over a church or a priest EVER. The set order of God in every church was as paul wrote

"For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:" Titus 1:5

Notice that this was a set order from God. Paul said what he taught he taught the same things in every church. For God is not the authour of confusion. If Gods order was one way in once place and another way in another place that would bring confusion. And we see much of this confusion (Babylon) today

and elders plural are in every church singular

"And when they had ordained them elders in every church" Acts 14:23

an elder is simple a more mature brother who has consistantly used the word of God and been recognized in this and who is able to exhort the gainsayers and who reflects a good example for others. Elders influence others by example, not by their own authority in a positional title. Jesus for example was not a positional authroty as the religious leaders saw and they challenged him by what authority he did these things. His authority was from God in the word of God. He spake as one having authority. So also when those who walk in the rule of God ( which is to live in the peace of God and the new creation) speak the word of God, the word of God is the authority. A babe is unskillful in the word of righteousness but a more mature brother is more skillful. An elder is like an older brother who sees his younger brother trying to walk on the fence and he says to him. "hey that is dangerous " , The younger brother might say "your not the boss of me", and the older brother says, "But dad said not to do it dont you remember", then the younger stops and realizes the fathers word . The authority of the fathers word has weight, not the older brothers position. Also the older brother will give an example of his life . he may say things like, "I walked on that fence also and fell headlong into the rocks and almost died. I learned not to do it. Or he may say I can show you a easier way to get to the other side of the yard were you wont get hurt I went that way recently come Ill show you.

An elder is not to have dominion over anothers faith or Lord over them or place themselve in some flattering title over them. No man for example should ever call himself, "Master of divinity" or reverend. Reverend is Gods name. We read in scripture ,

"Let me not, I pray you, accept any man's person, neither let me give flattering titles unto man.
22For I know not to give flattering titles; in so doing my maker would soon take me away."

also when Paul saw that peter and the believers were in error he withstood him to the face and he said this also,

"But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:" Galatians 2:6

Notice here that he was referring to James, Cephas, and John. Yet how many today accept men's persons and put them above others. Paul may have said this because when men do this and the men high places are in error they lead many astray. Yes we honour one another and recognize the gifts and work and example of others and the word of God they speak. But not as we see today where one man has control over the entire assembly and no one can minister as good stewards because he has his program. Or else they have to get his approval to speak. This is all wrong and hinders the function of the church. Consider what I say and the Lord will give you understanding in these things.

Because of our man made traditions that make the word of God of no effect, and that have entered into the gatherings for centuries i often here men say many errors. They say things like;

My church is over there, as they point to an empty building of brick and mortar.

My pastor is the head of our church

The pastors word is law

The pastor is my covering and authority

we re building new church buildings in the summer in Africa

we just painted the church yesterday

I have to ask my pastor if i can share a word with the body

maybe the pastor will allow us to share with others in the church




 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: TheMissingRib
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,385
1,750
✟167,189.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The Op seems to me more concerned with exercising spiritual gifts amongst the congregation ... my email contained this blog post aimed at women in the church setting but it applies equally to all members of the Body.
http://www.thebettermom.com/blog/2015/6/27/how-satan-confuses-women-to-disable-the-church
(lol I was put off by the title because it seemed so cliche but the content of recognising others gifts is an important part of being in the body)


Yes i am speaking about the body ministry under Christ headship. But what I have found is that this one man ministry hinders that in every place i see it. The scriptures never speak of one man over the church as a pastor gifting. The other gifts have been either ignored denied or pushed back into the shadows. Its strange how we her men make a gift into a title of office they will say Pastor Bob, but we never hear evangelist Bob or apostle Bob, etc. Those titles would be equally wrong. But in scripture we hear Paul say Paul, an apostle. Paul was aware that God does not want men to be exalted over others and he said "But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:" Galatians 2:6. This is telling because Paul also warned the Corinthians about gathering under men, some said they were of paul and Cephas and Apollos etc. He saw the man made denominations forming and said it was wrong.

Peter also said how believers are to function he said,

"As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." 1 Peter 4:10,11

notice it says every man and any man, not just the pastor or a few others.
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,385
1,750
✟167,189.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I suspect that the crux of this matter concerns whether or not there is any obligation to have multiple pastors. That's the OP's suggestion. While we know that the early church had a variety of elders of different roles and titles, the earliest churches faced challenges that changed over the years, and with that, so did the number of clergy. At times they expanded; at other times in church history they contracted. There is, however, nothing special in the number that any particular congregation chooses to have.


Hello,

multiple pastors gifts is not what I am really refering to. Elders pluarl is. Elders can have pastor gifts and they can also have apostle gifts or prophet gifts evangeklist gifts or teacher gifts. Peter was an apostle and also an elder 1 Peter 5:1. This shows that elders are not just pastor gifts.

if a perosn is an "elder", thats who they are an older brother, more mature in the faith. They will also be an overseer, as in Acts 2o were we read that the Holy Ghost made them overseers to feed the church of God. Peter also says elders should feed the church. The overseer is what they do, they watch over and superintend . They do this by speaking the word of God which is their auhtority, and by example. For example if an elder wants to show another brother how to forgive someone, they should demonstrate that in their life as well. And these men may allso have one or more of the gifts in Ephesians 4:10, not just a pastor gift.

so an elder is who he is and overseer is what he does and the gifts is how he perfects the body and equips and ministers in Christ.

But just because these elders minister, does not mean that the whole body cant minister. Peter says

"As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God." 1 Peter 4:1

To be a good steward believers are required to minister to one another. But if the one man at the front dominates and exalt his ministry over others this quenches the body and hinders the function of the body of Christ which is mutual edification when we gather together. "Let all things be done unto edifying" 1 Cor 14...

even the architecture that houses these men in their ministry affects the church. the early church, and for some 300 years after met in homes around Christ and had a meal together and fellowship sharing the word and gifts. The home is condusive to this body function. But if all people are forced to face the back of someones head and look to the man at the front this does not encourage the function of the church in Christ. In architecture, form follows function. If the function of a place is for a lecture format or teaching, the architecture will be facing the front will all seats forward. But if the function is mutual edification and a meal together, a home is ideal for this. The early church pattern was to met in homes as many scriptures point this out and paul and others were led by the Spirit to plant churches everywhere this way. yes they met in other places for evangelism, but these were not church meetings. So even the structures unbiblically called "churches" displace the true church which is the body of Christ and the function of the church. And to have one man over al this to control the entire show, is even more erronious and hindering.

If any want to consider what I say search where we get the modern idea of a ona man over the church at the front on an altar with steps going up to it. It really began around 325 Ad in Rome.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheMissingRib
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Hello,

multiple pastors gifts is not what I am really refering to. Elders pluarl is.
Right. That's what I was addressing.

if a perosn is an "elder", thats who they are an older brother, more mature in the faith.
No, an 'Elder,' Scripturally speaking, is a clergyman, the equivalent of a presbyter or priest. This is important to bear in mind as we assess this issue you raised about a multiplicity of them. Of course, laypersons can perform important roles that are often called "ministering." Examples are the Sunday School Superintendent, the governing boards of the church, and the ushers.
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,385
1,750
✟167,189.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Right. That's what I was addressing.


No, an 'Elder,' Scripturally speaking, is a clergyman, the equivalent of a presbyter or priest. This is important to bear in mind as we assess this issue you raised about a multiplicity of them. Of course, laypersons can perform important roles that are often called "ministering." Examples are the Sunday School Superintendent, the governing boards of the church, and the ushers.


Hello again, I must disagree here, the word elder means "Older, senior" in Greek.

Also Paul called the elders in Acts 20 and we read that the Holy Ghost made them overseers. So an elder is also an overseer. The giftings may be any one of the five fold gifts in Ephesians 4.

also you mention clergymen, and laypersons. This clergy and laity division is nowhere found in scripture.

The word “clergy”, comes from the Greek word “kleros”, meaning “heritage, inhertitance or lot”, showing that believers are the inheritance, or heritage of God and it is used that way in scripture as we read ,

Neither as being lords over God’s heritage [Kleros], but being examples to the flock.” (1 Peter 5:3).

The word “laity” means comes from the word “laos”, meaning, “a people”, and it is used that way in scripture.

“And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people [laos].” ( 2 Corinthians 6:16)

There is no such thing as a clergy and latiy division. The “kleros:, and the “laity” both refer to the body of Christ. We are the inheritance of God and the people of God.

and there is definately no positional priestly role as in the OT. We are all a royal priesthood

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:" 1 Peter 2:9

the priesthood of all believers and their various functions that they are commanded to allow in the gatherings are hindered 98 percent or more in most gatherings today under the wrong clergy and laity divide. This schism has ben there for a ong time between the men exalted over all and the body...sadly

and the function of the rest of the body cannot be belittled to ushers sunday school Superintendants etc. The entire body can have a doctrine revelation psalm, use all the five fold gifts, prophecy and edify eachother as Christ leads.

there are so many traditions of men that make the word of God of no effect it would take all day to discuss these

here are just a few, there is no

church buildings in the new testeament, the church is the body of Christ

there is no one man pastor ministry over a church in the NT

there is no song leaders

no sermons

nochildrens church

no paid salary ministers, except traveling apostolic workers and preachers who need support in their work 1 Cor 9

no tithing

no pews facing forward, (for they all met in homes for the church in the house,

no altars with steps leading up to a man made altar ( also forbidden in scripture)

no showtime religion with floodlights, superstar actors, slide shows etc

no programs, written up with the whole event planned from beginning to end

no services

no worship services

no names given to a religious building calling it a church

no constitutional bylaws for tax breaks etc

no sanctuaries temples, etc

no collections in the gatherings

no small snack of a small cracker and small glass of juice for the supper. They had a full meal

No time schedules

no youth ministers

no pulpits

no bible schools, where a man can buy his way into ministry, rather they were home grown elders recognized in their life and they knew the body

no different and various orders for meetings, all were in a set order that allowed God to move freely among them in every church

etc
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,352
10,607
Georgia
✟912,457.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
No One man pastor ministry over all.

Another hinderance to the function of God’s order in the church, is this one man “Pastor ministry” that has dominated Christendom for a long time. ..

A "long time" going all the way back to Noah... or to John the baptizer?
 
Upvote 0

Open Heart

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2014
18,521
4,393
62
Southern California
✟49,214.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Celibate
plurality of ministering elders in every church
Actually, it was more common for there to be one elder/presbyter (priest) in each church, supported by helpers/deacons. If the church was a metropolitan church such as Antioch or Jerusalem, a overseer/bishop would be the one man in charge, with presbyters and deacons assisting him.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Open Heart

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2014
18,521
4,393
62
Southern California
✟49,214.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Celibate
So an elder is also an overseer.
While this was true at first, presbyters and bishops were quickly separated in their roles, with bishops being the head over the presbyters in their area.
 
Upvote 0