No new Mosques?

[smaneck]

No, because this was in the time of the prophets and it was something God directly commanded, according to my faith. I do not expect you to condemn Al Khidr for slaughtering a child.

Surely you realize that this story in the Qur'an is a parable regarding divine providence? Children die all the time, and when that happens we tend to act like Moses in that story and ask, "God, how could you do this?"

You have a lot of admirable qualities, TG. It is unfortunate that your reading of the Qur'an is so superficial.

 

[smaneck]

So, basically you are condoning the persecutions.

Funny, I didn't see where he indicated anything along those lines.

 

[WoodrowX2]

So, basically you are condoning the persecutions. Oh, the "religion of peace". When will people see you for what you really are?

How on earth can you twist things around and come to the conclusion I support persecution of any one. Show were I said I support persecution.

I stated the fact that in nations were Christians are the Minority they are persecuted. That is a fact. That does not mean I think it is right or should be condoned. But Minorities are nearly always persecuted.

Muslims are often Persecuted in China. Black people are often persecuted in White Majority nations. Jews have been persecuted in nearly every Nation.

It is not right but the Majority usually persecutes the minorities.

As for people seeing me for what I am. I think I am quite open. I am what you see. I am am happy with being me and have no malice towards those do not like what I am.

 

[smaneck]

How on earth can you twist things around and come to the conclusion I support persecution of any one. Show were I said I support persecution.

Oh come on Woodrow, we all know what a mean old man you are and Crypto is such a gentle, loving soul.

 

[WoodrowX2]

Oh come on Woodrow, we all know what a mean old man you are and Crypto is such a gentle, loving soul.

I am surprised you have not seen my violent side after how often I have attacked you on this forum.

If any people have any justification to hate me I would say it is the Baha'i members. Yet every Baha'i on here has the wisdom to treat people as individuals and not generalize. I deeply appreciate that.

 

[smaneck]

I am surprised you have not seen my violent side after how often I have attacked you on this forum.

If any people have any justification to hate me I would say it is the Baha'i members. Yet every Baha'i on here has the wisdom to treat people as individuals and not generalize. I deeply appreciate that.

It is not just that we make a distinction between individuals, it is that make a distinction between the Prophet and His Revelation and what some Muslims have done with it. (Okay, I admit I tend to generalize when it comes to the 'ulama.) As I mentioned in another thread on the internet one will find dozens of Muslim-sponsored sites attacking the Baha'i Faith, many of the sponsored by the Iranian government. You will not, however, find any anti-Islamic sites by Baha'is because they respect Islam and revere Muhammad. Shoghi Effendi, who headed the Baha'i community from 1921-1957 wrote:

"As to Muhammad, the Apostle of God, let none among His followers who read these pages, think for a moment that either Islam, or its Prophet, or His Book, or His appointed Successors, or any of His authentic teachings, have been, or are to be in any way, or to however slight a degree, disparaged."

He also stressed to Western Baha'is:

"They must strive to obtain, from sources that are authoritative and unbiased, a sound knowledge of the history and tenets of Islam -- the source and background of their Faith -- and approach reverently and with a mind purged from preconceived ideas the study of the Qur'án which, apart from the sacred scriptures of the Bábí and Bahá'í Revelations, constitutes the only Book which can be regarded as an absolutely authenticated Repository of the Word of God."(Compilations, Scholarship, p. 27)

He even went so far as to predict that the Western Baha'is would become the defenders of Islam. Since then there has been a stream of academically trained Baha'is, including myself, who have gone on to teach Islam in western universities, seeking to stem the tide of prejudice against the religion.

 

[TG123]

If there are lots of people like you in Canada, your country is already lost.

Our Prime Minister is a man who supports the occupation of Afghanistan, the abuses by Israel of the Palestinians, and "free trade" with Guatemala and Colombia even though it means that our corporations are complicit in murders and disposession of the local population. Most Canadians vote for him time and time again so don't worry, most of my countrymen are not opposed to the injustices you support.

They also overwhelmingly support abortion. This isn't that surprising, really. If you support state murder of people overseas who are often children, why not support murder of the unborn? At least on this issue, Canadians are consistent.

I won't answer all of the points you raised because I am aware that I'd do it in vain.

You are aware your misinformation would be refuted. So you fire off a few insults, and take off running.

Dean - "Run Forrest Run!" - YouTube

By the way, I know much more about the American policies in South America than you. Heck, I spent my whole life in South America and I was born there. The situation is more complex than you think. To put it briefly, the USA did a good job in the region. At the time we were struggling to control the communist guerrillas and without the USA we could have fallen prey of them.

How many people did the guerrillas kill in Guatemala and El Salvador? How many did the army kill?

 

[TG123]

I think many of us look at the wrong factors. Yes it is true that in nations in which Christians are a minority the Christians generally do suffer. Often regarding the ability to worship is hindered. But that does not mean Just Muslim nations. It seems in every non-Christian nation. The Christians are often persecuted.

In today's world the Nations in which Christians face the most persecution are every Nation in which Christians are a minority. This includes not just Muslim Nations but any nation in which Christianity is a minority. Currently there are 71 Nations in which Christianity is a Minority. Fifty of those are Muslim 21 are other religion majority.

Something that has to be looked at. There are 196 recognized countries. 125 of them are Christian Majority. Many of them having become so within the past 200 years.

In every one of the 71 Non-Christian Majority Nations various Christian denominations have sent in Missionaries either openly or clandestinely.

While that may seem to be Joyous for Christians it is quite scary for non-Christians.

The Message, non-Christians see, is If Christians are permitted to proselytize the established religion is going to vanish.

The 10 Nations most hostile to Christians in my opinion are: China, North Korea, Laos, Cuba, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Somalia, India, Afghanistan. Just my own opinion others will probably come up with a different list.

On a Christian site I found a list of 17 Nations in which Christians are persecuted: Apparently the site is a denomination that does not consider Catholics as Christian as some of the Nations they name are Majority Catholic.



SOURCE

In my opinion out of the 50 Muslim Nations the majority are not hostile to Christians.

In most Islamic Majority Nations Christians are treated with Respect.

It is true that not only Muslim majority countries persecute Christians. It is also true that not only Christian majority countries persecute Muslims.

Most Muslim countries are not as cruel towards Christians as Saudi Arabia and Somalia and Afghanistan, but in how many Muslim countries are Christians allowed to prosyletize?

Muslims are allowed to prosyletize in Canada and other Western countries.

 

[TG123]

Saudi is difficult to understand.

The first thing a person must know is it is a Kingdom, an absolute monarchy under thje private owneship of the al-Saud family. Nearly every citizen is a member of the al-Saud family.

When one goes into Saudi they are entering private property. This is sort of like going onto a large Ranch that is all private property. You can not think of Saudi in the same terms as you would think of public land. You have think in relationship to visiting a large plantation.

Think like you are going on a tour of the Del-Monte Pineapple plantation. I doubt if Del-Monte would let you sell Chiquitta pineapple juice on plantation owned land.

Like any piece of Private property the land owner is going to set the rules as to what you can do on his property. Would you build a church on the Del-Monte plantation, unless the owners asked you to?

Keep in mind a person going into Saudi does not own any property there. There is no Public land. All Saudi land is owned by the al-Saud Family. There is no land for Sale. Although the al-Saud Family has leased out considerable land to the US for Military bases and to oil companies for oil production. But, it is still owned by the al-Saud family.

If a person is in Saudi and they are not a member of the Royal Family most likely they are either Oil Company employees or US military.

Would you let a Hindu build an alter to Kali in your living room and teach your children to worship Kali?

This is essentially what missionaries are trying to do on the private property of the al-Saud Family.

On the complexes leased by the US Military or the oil companies. Residents on them can do as they please provided they keep it on the land they are leasing.

Saudi used to be much more open about non-Muslims expressing their beliefs on Saudi owned land. But in the past 50 years Missionaries coming into the nation posing as Students or tourists have pretty much proven them selves as being major pests. How long would you put up with a Hare-Krishna monk sitting in your Bedroom preaching to you about Krishna every time you walked into your own Bedroom.

How welcoming of me would you be if I tried to Turn your garage into a Mosque and Madrassas in order to convert your children to Islam. Essentially this is what Missionaries in Saudi are trying to do to Saudis, convert the al-Saud family to Christianity in their own living rooms..

Another thing to keep in mind. Saudis are not isolated. Very Many Saudi do travel outside of Saudi and do attend schools in other Nations. They are not shut out of learning about Christianity. A very large number of Saudis have read the bible and have attended Churches in other nations. Few will leave Islam, but they are not isolated from learning about other religions as they travel

Look around at every major US university and you will find Muslim Students from Islamic Nation. They are well exposed to Christian missionaries. Except for some third world nations it will be difficult to find a Muslim that has not been exposed to Christianity.

Yes Saudi should allow the wearing of Crosses, distribution of Bibles. the proselytizing of any religion etc on Public Land. But one must remember there is no Public land in Saudi, it is all privately owned by the al-Saud family.

The issue is over rights a private land owner has regarding his property.

Yes, if a Christian owned a piece of property in Saudi he should have the right to build a Church on it. But no Christians own any land in Saudi and there is no land available to buy.

Salaam Alaikum.

Were there no people living in Saudi Arabia before the Saud family bought the land there? Were these people informed that the land they lived on is private property? Did they give their consent to this? Did the Shia Muslims living in Saudi Arabia give their consent?

Also, are you aware that the Saudi family is involved in supporting Muslim prosyletization? If they do not allow non-Muslims to express their religion in their land, what right do they have to try to spread Islam in non-Muslim lands?

 

[TG123]

Then you are not thinking straight. Don't write to me again. Reading your nonsensical ideas and realizing how distorted your worldview is make me wanna puke.

Then go puke, and when you come back start acting like a mature adult and try to address what people said rather than insult them. If you are unable to convince them of your view, agree to disagree or keep pushing your view.

Threatening a bulimic episode doesn't help any, though. It's time to grow up.

 

[TG123]

Surely you realize that this story in the Qur'an is a parable regarding divine providence? Children die all the time, and when that happens we tend to act like Moses in that story and ask, "God, how could you do this?"

You have a lot of admirable qualities, TG. It is unfortunate that your reading of the Qur'an is so superficial.

Please show me any evidence from the Quran that the story of Khidr is a parable and not a true event.

I admire your commitment to justice also, but don't see evidence that what you are describing is only a story.

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

No, because this was in the time of the prophets and it was something God directly commanded, according to my faith. I do not expect you to condemn Al Khidr for slaughtering a child.

So why do you ask/expect Muslims to condemn Islaam's rule against others proselytizing in Islaamic nations?

This is now, however, and you are quite vocal about calling for the West to respect the rights of Muslims living in it to practice their faith. If you want the West to respect the religious rights of Muslims, you should have the expectation that Muslim majority countries respect the rights of non-Muslims to practice their faith.
[/font]

I am vocal about the West acting according to its own laws - which is supposed to include the freedom of religion. I am vocal about the West contradicting their own principles time and time again. If the time comes that a nation does not allow Muslims to practice their religion anymore, Muslims will be required to leave in favor of a nation that allows them to practice their faith (though I doubt Muslims would leave before telling these nations that they are contradicting their own democracy & concept of human rights) if they have the ability to.

 

[smaneck]

Most Muslim countries are not as cruel towards Christians as Saudi Arabia and Somalia and Afghanistan, but in how many Muslim countries are Christians allowed to prosyletize?

I don't think it would be accurate to call the Saudi government 'cruel' towards Christians. Foreign Christians worship within their own colonies whereas there really isn't a significant community outside of it. I would be more concerned with the treatment of Christians in places like Egypt and Syria. In Syria in particular I think the Christian community could be in trouble because most of them support the Baathists.

 

[smaneck]

Then go puke, and when you come back start acting like a mature adult and try to address what people said rather than insult them. If you are unable to convince them of your view, agree to disagree or keep pushing your view.

Threatening a bulimic episode doesn't help any, though. It's time to grow up.

 

[smaneck]

Please show me any evidence from the Quran that the story of Khidr is a parable and not a true event.

For gosh sakes, TG. Just look at the structure of the story itself. A parable is a succinct, didactic story which uses analogies to make a point.
66. Musa (Moses) said to him (Khidr) "May I follow you so that you teach me something of that knowledge (guidance and true path) which you have been taught (by Allah)?"

67. He (Khidr) said: "Verily! You will not be able to have patience with me!

68. "And how can you have patience about a thing which you know not?"

69. Musa (Moses) said: "If Allah will, you will find me patient, and I will not disobey you in aught."

70. He (Khidr) said: "Then, if you follow me, ask me not about anything till I myself mention it to you."

71. So they both proceeded, till, when they embarked the ship, he (Khidr) scuttled it. Musa (Moses) said: "Have you scuttled it in order to drown its people? Verily, you have committed a thing "Imra" (a Munkar - evil, bad, dreadful thing)."

72. He (Khidr) said: "Did I not tell you, that you would not be able to have patience with me?"

73. [Musa (Moses)] said: "Call me not to account for what I forgot, and be not hard upon me for my affair (with you)."

74. Then they both proceeded, till they met a boy, he (Khidr) killed him. Musa (Moses) said: "Have you killed an innocent person who had killed none? Verily, you have committed a thing "Nukra" (a great Munkar - prohibited, evil, dreadful thing)!"

75. (Khidr) said: "Did I not tell you that you can have no patience with me?"

76. [Musa (Moses)] said: "If I ask you anything after this, keep me not in your company, you have received an excuse from me."

77. Then they both proceeded, till, when they came to the people of a town, they asked them for food, but they refused to entertain them. Then they found therein a wall about to collapse and he (Khidr) set it up straight. [Musa (Moses)] said: If you had wished, surely, you could have taken wages for it!"

78. (Khidr) said: "This is the parting between me and you, I will tell you the interpretation of (those) things over which you were unable to hold patience.

79. "As for the ship, it belonged to Masakin (poor people) working in the sea. So I wished to make a defective damage in it, as there was a king after them who seized every ship by force.

80. "And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared lest he should oppress them by rebellion and disbelief.

81. "So we intended that their Lord should change him for them for one better in righteousness and near to mercy.

82. "And as for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the town; and there was under it a treasure belonging to them; and their father was a righteous man, and your Lord intended that they should attain their age of full strength and take out their treasure as a mercy from your Lord. And I did it not of my own accord. That is the interpretation of those (things) over which you could not hold patience."

The whole point of this story is we need to be patient like Job when God's activity appears contradictory to us.

Khidr is not a a historical person. He represents what Luther called the Deus Absconditus.

Here, read the wiki article on him:

Khidr - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[TG123]

So why do you ask/expect Muslims to condemn Islaam's rule against others proselytizing in Islaamic nations?

Because Muslims are asking for the same rights in non-Muslim nations.

I am vocal about the West acting according to its own laws - which is supposed to include the freedom of religion. I am vocal about the West contradicting their own principles time and time again. If the time comes that a nation does not allow Muslims to practice their religion anymore, Muslims will be required to leave in favor of a nation that allows them to practice their faith (though I doubt Muslims would leave before telling these nations that they are contradicting their own democracy & concept of human rights) if they have the ability to.

Why do you care whether or not the West acts according to its own laws? If they want to change their laws and become repressive towards Muslims, who are you to tell them they can't?

Before the formation of Pakistan, it was not illegal for non-Muslim people in that area to prosyletize. Now it is. If the laws of an area or country can be changed to restrict non-Muslims, why can they not be changed to restrict Muslims?

Don't get me wrong. I am not in favour of banning the hijab or banning Muslims from prosyletizing. But I see it as extremely hypocritical when some Muslims speak out for religious freedoms for Muslims in the West, while defending restricting religious freedoms of non-Muslims in Muslim majority nations. Defend freedom for all or hypocritically defend freedom only for some.

 

[TG123]

For gosh sakes, TG. Just look at the structure of the story itself. A parable is a succinct, didactic story which uses analogies to make a point.
66. Musa (Moses) said to him (Khidr) "May I follow you so that you teach me something of that knowledge (guidance and true path) which you have been taught (by Allah)?"

67. He (Khidr) said: "Verily! You will not be able to have patience with me!

68. "And how can you have patience about a thing which you know not?"

69. Musa (Moses) said: "If Allah will, you will find me patient, and I will not disobey you in aught."

70. He (Khidr) said: "Then, if you follow me, ask me not about anything till I myself mention it to you."

71. So they both proceeded, till, when they embarked the ship, he (Khidr) scuttled it. Musa (Moses) said: "Have you scuttled it in order to drown its people? Verily, you have committed a thing "Imra" (a Munkar - evil, bad, dreadful thing)."

72. He (Khidr) said: "Did I not tell you, that you would not be able to have patience with me?"

73. [Musa (Moses)] said: "Call me not to account for what I forgot, and be not hard upon me for my affair (with you)."

74. Then they both proceeded, till they met a boy, he (Khidr) killed him. Musa (Moses) said: "Have you killed an innocent person who had killed none? Verily, you have committed a thing "Nukra" (a great Munkar - prohibited, evil, dreadful thing)!"

75. (Khidr) said: "Did I not tell you that you can have no patience with me?"

76. [Musa (Moses)] said: "If I ask you anything after this, keep me not in your company, you have received an excuse from me."

77. Then they both proceeded, till, when they came to the people of a town, they asked them for food, but they refused to entertain them. Then they found therein a wall about to collapse and he (Khidr) set it up straight. [Musa (Moses)] said: If you had wished, surely, you could have taken wages for it!"

78. (Khidr) said: "This is the parting between me and you, I will tell you the interpretation of (those) things over which you were unable to hold patience.

79. "As for the ship, it belonged to Masakin (poor people) working in the sea. So I wished to make a defective damage in it, as there was a king after them who seized every ship by force.

80. "And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared lest he should oppress them by rebellion and disbelief.

81. "So we intended that their Lord should change him for them for one better in righteousness and near to mercy.

82. "And as for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the town; and there was under it a treasure belonging to them; and their father was a righteous man, and your Lord intended that they should attain their age of full strength and take out their treasure as a mercy from your Lord. And I did it not of my own accord. That is the interpretation of those (things) over which you could not hold patience."

The whole point of this story is we need to be patient like Job when God's activity appears contradictory to us.

Khidr is not a a historical person. He represents what Luther called the Deus Absconditus.

Here, read the wiki article on him:

Khidr - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I see the story of a wise man who knew God, and was doing things that Moses could not understand. I do not see any evidence that, according to the Quran, he was not real.

According to the wikipedia article you cited:

Khidr or al-Khidr (Arabic: الخضر‎ al-Khiḍr, also transcribed as Khidr, Khizr, Khyzer, Qhizyer, Qhezar, Khizar, Xızır, Hızır) is a revered figure in Islam, who is believed to be described in the Quran as a righteous servant of God and he possessed great wisdom or mystic knowledge. In different Islamic and non-Islamic traditions, Khidr is variously described as a messenger, prophet, wali or in some cases, as a "non-abstract" deity [1] who takes place of the God (Haq or Heq) as a deus otiosus.[2] The figure of al-Khidr has been syncretized over time with various figures including Vishnu in India,[3] Sorūsh (Avesta Sraosha) and Mithra in Iran, Saint Sarkis the Warrior (Saint Sergius) and John the Baptist in Armenia,[4] Saint George in Asia Minor and the Levant, etc.[5]


Khidr - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[smaneck]

I see the story of a wise man who knew God, and was doing things that Moses could not understand. I do not see any evidence that, according to the Quran, he was not real.

I didn't say he wasn't 'real' I said he wasn't a historical personage. Moses is a Prophet of God yet this person is clearly someone with spiritual authority over Moses. Who has spiritual authority over a Prophet?

According to the wikipedia article you cited:

Note this point especially:

"Khidr is variously described as a messenger, prophet, wali or in some cases, as a "non-abstract" deity [1] who takes place of the God (Haq or Heq) as a deus otiosus."

Please, TG try and read the Qur'an the same way I hope you read your own scriptures, searching for spiritual meaning. Otherwise like the Moses in this story all you will see is the contradictions.

 

[TG123]

I didn't say he wasn't 'real' I said he wasn't a historical personage. Moses is a Prophet of God yet this person is clearly someone with spiritual authority over Moses. Who has spiritual authority over a Prophet?

Are you saying that according to Islam, God came down and journeyed with Moses as a man?

Note this point especially:

"Khidr is variously described as a messenger, prophet, wali or in some cases, as a "non-abstract" deity [1] who takes place of the God (Haq or Heq) as a deus otiosus."

I was unaware that Islam believes in "non abstract deities". I think Muslims would disagree with you that Khidr was a deity who took the place of God.

Please, TG try and read the Qur'an the same way I hope you read your own scriptures, searching for spiritual meaning. Otherwise like the Moses in this story all you will see is the contradictions.

I don't see contradictions in the story of Khidr. I was using it to respond to some points made by LoveBeingAMuslimah about God allowing and ordering the killing of children at some points in history. We both believe that there were times when God ordained such things.

 

[smaneck]

Are you saying that according to Islam, God came down and journeyed with Moses as a man?

No, TG!. I'm saying this story is a parable and in this parable Khidr *represents* the Hidden God.

I was unaware that Islam believes in "non abstract deities". I think Muslims would disagree with you that Khidr was a deity who took the place of God.

You're still missing the point, TG. It's a *story.* You are trying to treat it as history.

I don't see contradictions in the story of Khidr.

Then you missed the point. They story is all about the seeming contradictions of God's activity and how we need to be patient and endure them.

We both believe that there were times when God ordained such things.

The story isn't so much about what God 'ordains' in the sense that He commands genocide, including the murder of infants, as we find in 1 Samuel 15:3. Rather it is about the mystery of God Himself seeming to kill the innocent and engage in contradictory acts. Khidr never indicates that God has told Him to do these things. That is because He represents God in the story.