and Muslims also believe that Abraham was a Muslim too..The question here is...was that true? or only claimed? and ignore everything but believe it
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
No new Mosques?
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and Muslims also believe that Abraham was a Muslim too..The question here is...was that true? or only claimed? and ignore everything but believe it
Shia Muslims have a tradition called temporal marriage (Nikāḥ al-Mutʿah) that allows them to have sex with any woman (Muslim, Christian or Jew) by marrying her for a short time. Sunni Muslims don't have this tradition, so according to them Khomeini did a bad thing when he raped the little girl (without penetrating her). It is very likely that Khomeini actually did it, since he also published these fatwa:
"A man can quench his sexual lusts with a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate. Sodomizing the baby is halal (allowed by sharia). If the man penetrates and damages the child, then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however, does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl’s sister. It is better for a girl to marry when her menstruation starts, and at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven." (Khomeini, "Tahrirolvasyleh" fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990)
“It is not illegal for an adult male to 'thigh' or enjoy a young girl who is still in the age of weaning; meaning to place his penis between her thighs, and to kiss her.” (Ayatu Allah Al Khumaini's "Tahrir Al wasila" p. 241, issue number 12)
All of this is based on the behavior of Muhammad, who practiced these things with six-year-old Aisha.
Dude, read the damn document. It is very clear there that Maududi is inciting Muslims to use violence against non-Muslims. Lots of editions of the Qur'an have commentaries of Maududi in them. So, the violent words of that terrorist are widespread in Islam. By the way, you hate Jews because Muhammad taught you to hate them:
Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 791:
"A man can quench his sexual lusts with a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate. Sodomizing the baby is halal (allowed by sharia). If the man penetrates and damages the child, then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however, does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl’s sister. It is better for a girl to marry when her menstruation starts, and at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven." (Khomeini, "Tahrirolvasyleh" fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990)
“It is not illegal for an adult male to 'thigh' or enjoy a young girl who is still in the age of weaning; meaning to place his penis between her thighs, and to kiss her.” (Ayatu Allah Al Khumaini's "Tahrir Al wasila" p. 241, issue number 12)
All of this is based on the behavior of Muhammad, who practiced these things with six-year-old Aisha.
Dude, read the damn document. It is very clear there that Maududi is inciting Muslims to use violence against non-Muslims. Lots of editions of the Qur'an have commentaries of Maududi in them. So, the violent words of that terrorist are widespread in Islam. By the way, you hate Jews because Muhammad taught you to hate them:
Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 791:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
I heard Allah's Apostle [Muhammad]saying, "The Jews will fight with you, and you will be given victory over them so that a stone will say, 'O Muslim! There is a Jew behind me; kill him!' "
Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:I heard Allah's Apostle [Muhammad]saying, "The Jews will fight with you, and you will be given victory over them so that a stone will say, 'O Muslim! There is a Jew behind me; kill him!' "
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "
Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6981:Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger [Muhammad](may peace be upon him) as saying: You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me); kill him.
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WoodrowX2
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Every Muslim is aware that is a prophecy of the final days after the Return of Jesus and the Mehdi.
At which time there will be a great battle between those who Submit to God(swt) and those who fight against God(swt) Some of those will remain Jews, Christians, Pagans etc, join forces with the anti-Christ and refuse to Worship God(swt) those will attempt to destroy those who serve God(swt)
These are who Muhammad(saws) was speaking of. There will be no place for them to hide and they will not be able to Defeat Jesus(as) The Mehdi and those fighting the anti-Christ.
This is the same thing the Jehovah Witnesses refer to as the "Battle of Armageddon"
As I asked before, on which page in Maududi's booklet do you find him advocating violence.
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WoodrowX2
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The question here is...was that true? or only claimed? and ignore everything but believe it
All the Prophets, the original Jews, the early followers of Jesus(as) and Many others. Submitted to God(swt) A person who Submits to God(swt) is a Muslim. this includes Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus (Peace be Upon all of them)
Islam is a Verb meaning the act of Submitting to God. A person who submits to God(swt) does the act of Islam. A person who performs Islam is a Muslim (Male)/ Muslimah (Female)
Islam-Verb
Muslim-Noun the person who does Islam
If a person is truly submitting to God(swt) the Arabic word for that person is Muslim.
Muslim does not mean a follower of Muhammad(saws) Muhammad(saws) did not start a religion nor bring anything new. He was simply the tool used to correct mankind and return them to following what Allaah(swt) had revealed in the past to all the Prophets(PBUT)
All people of all times who Submitted to God(swt) are Muslims.
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WoodrowX2
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While I am a Sunni and highly disagree with Shi'ism. I believe this video is a bit exaggerated.
All people are biased and reports by human's reflect their prejudices. A video by a Sunni might not give a fair unbiased report of a Shi'ite. One needs to look at all views from all sources and not rely on the memory of one person.
A touch of irony here Quoting the OP "Their Imams molest little children because Muhammad also did it:"
The Shi'ite do not believe Muhammad(saws) was ever married to Aisha or even knew her. they believe she was a liar that wrote fabrications to demean Muhammad(saws)
The Shi'ite do not believe Muhammad(saws) ever had sexual relations with Aisha.
Muhammad(saws)'s marriage to Aisha is a Sunni belief. Even as a Sunni I must admit there is no physical evidence that Aisha ever existed. I have nothing except the Ahadith written by who we believe to be Aisha.
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smaneck
Baha'i
"Muslim" in this sense merely means someone who is submissive unto God and not involved in the sectarian disputes of Christians and Jews.
The question here is...was that true? or only claimed? and ignore everything but believe it
As I indicated earlier, there is no historical evidence that Abraham even existed. All beliefs regarding his existence is based entirely on the authority of scripture. That being the case, I don't see why Arab tradition would be any less credible than that of the Hebrews.
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smaneck
Baha'i
Dear Woodrow,
I think you've been misinformed here. Shi'ites don't deny that the Prophet was ever married to Aisha, they simply do not consider her a reliable conveyor of ahadith because of her opposition and animosity towards Ali and Fatima. (She opposed Ali in the famous Battle of the Camel.) Many would reject the notion that she was as young as ahadith that come through Aisha indicate she was. They believe such a young age was ascribed to Aisha first as evidence of her virginity, which would make her unique among the Prophets wives (since he mostly married widows and divorcees) and to make her the Prophet's darling over Fatima, His daughter.
A lot of Shi'ites believe as I do, that she was in her late teens when she consummated her marriage to the Prophet.
warmest, Susan
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Throughout the whole booklet. I can't believe that you are unable to see it yourself. Maududi is the mastermind behind all of the terrorism that has being orchestrated recently in the Middle East. Everyone knows that and I am sure that you know that too.
The verses I posted above are not just a prophecy. They are are a command to kill the Jews and to obliterate them from the face of the earth. I can't see any reason why your violent religion should be tolerated anywhere. Isn't your goal to transform this entire forum into a bunch of Dhimmies? Tell the truth because I have the scriptures to prove you wrong if you lie.
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And why do you Shi'ites believe that? It is clear from the Hadith that Muhammad had sex with her when she was still a child:
Narrated Aisha: "The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Alright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. (Sahih Bukhari 5:58:234)
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. (Sahih Muslim 8:3311)
Narrated Hisham's father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed (sic consummated) that marriage when she was nine years old. (Sahih Bukhari 5:58:236)
Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). (Sahih Bukhari 7:62:64)
Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). (Sahih Bukhari 7:62:88)
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Compendium_of_Muslim_Texts
That's the reason why the Qur'an has instructions on how to divorce yourself from your pre-pubescent wife after you have had sex with her.
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smaneck
Baha'i
You don't get it, do you?
Any narration from Aisha is not considered reliable to Shi'ites because they consider her narrations to be self-serving. Shi'ites have their own hadith collections and don't use al-Bukhari. So to adduce as evidence hadiths which they don't accept does you no good whatsoever.
Secondly, I am not a Shi'ite, I am a Baha'i. However, the Baha'i Faith as the same relationship to Shi'ite Islam that Christianity has to Judaism.
Third, as a historian I don't regard any hadith collection as all that reliable. They were all compiled centuries after the Prophet.
Wrong, it simply acknowledges that a woman may not have her menses and there are lots of possible causes of that such as menopause.
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smaneck
Baha'i
Uh, no. Mawdudi died in 1979 well before the recent spate of terrorism in the Middle East. Besides, he was from South Asia, not the Middle East. As an Indian Muslim he opposed the formation of Pakistan. The first suicide bombing doesn't take place until 1983 and it is carried out by a Shi'ite who would not have been influenced by Mawdudi. However, it is true that most of the Sunni terrorist groups take their inspiration from the writings of Mawdudi and Sayyid al-Qutb.
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WoodrowX2
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It is possible I misunderstood.
I got my information from some Shi'ite Friends I had in Austin (My oldest Daughter is a convert to Shi'a) as the argument was a little heated it is possible there were emotional and not factual responses.
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WoodrowX2
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Maududi while being deeply fundamentalist was never a terrorist and did not promote violence in his lifetime.
While many of us disagree with Maududi's commentaries, his histories and synopsis of the Surat are quite accurate and are excellent works of research.
Yo do not seem to understand what the Ahadith are and like many non-Muslims seem to consider them to be commandments.
Yes, as a Muslim I desire the entire world to be Islamic just as many Christians desire the world to be Christian
I do not think it should be done by force and do believe it will happen when all people accept Islam through their own free will. But, I do not believe this will happen until after Jesus(as) returns.
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smaneck
Baha'i
Dear Woodrow,
I think there are some Shi'ites that even accept the notion that Aisha was only nine when her marriage to the Prophet was consummated. I can't think of any other reason for the Iranian government to place the age of majority for women at 9. The marriage would not have been legal according to the shariah unless she was old enough to give consent. It is not that girls are getting married that young, or vote or anything else, but they can be convicted as adults for crimes like prostitution which carry the death penalty! There was one case of a thirteen year old mentally challenged girl that had been put out for prostitution by her mother. If you
can believe it, the courts *hung* this little girl.
Mind you, the age of majority for a male is fifteen.
warmest, Susan
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smaneck
Baha'i
Theocracy is not just a government being run according to religious principles (which I might not object to under certain circumstances) it is a government where a priesthood has an important political role. Technically there is no priesthood in Islam, but in Shi'ism the 'ulama or clergy are able to exercise an extraordinary amount of political power. This is an innovation (bida, for Woodrow's benefit) and a bad one at that. Besides the power it gives the Supreme Leader the 'ulama completely control the judiciary which makes the preservation of human rights impossible in Iran.
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WoodrowX2
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In today's world only 2 nations are Theocracies, Vatican city and Iran. Some people do think Saudi is a Theocracy, but it is a Monarchy run by a single Family.
There is no Ordained clergy or a priesthood in Islam. Iran differs from Sunni in this respect. As Iran does have a very powerful Priesthood and Clergy. The Ayatollah has even more power than the Catholic Pope.
Sunni are very much opposed to any religious leadership.
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