No need for man to teach us 1 John 2:27

[JLB777]

Hello and God bless,

you have more weight in your words because you let the word of Christ dwell n you and you speak the word. There is only a few things to discuss here i agree with many things you say.

and it is true that Peters confession was not by flesh and blood that revealed that to hi,. No man can know the things of God either but the Spirit of God and to who he reveals them 1 Cor 2.


it is only a few things I would want to clarify, you said

"Of course the Spirit abides in us and teaches us, however, until we reach a place of maturity where we can feed ourselves correctly, and are anchored in the truth and are not blown about by every wind of doctrine, the Lord has given us the five-fold Ministry, which includes teachers, to bring us to maturity, that is to say, full stature Sonship."

Yes other gifts on the body can feed the flock, and edify mightily for perfecting the saints. This making them perfect unto every good work is also by the scriptures of truth that are for that purpose, and those who are able to use them aright will have sound doctrine and words that cannot be condemned. But one thing that is very interesting is that you quoted Ephesians 4:and more and it says

"11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;"

Notice here that he did not give just ASTORS" over the flock to be exalted over all and control everything. The body cannot be fully matured unless all aspects of Gods gifts are in place. The body will never grow properly if they hinder the use of , for example, apostles and prophets and evangelist and teachers. This is part of the problem that many of these gifts are rejected or ignored or put aside in place of a "pastor" gift. This is wrong and damaging to the perfecting of the saints and this will not help us come to the unity of the faith unto the perfect man.

Also because God gives these gifts to help the body and perfect them etc. This by no means says that all the body cannot minister to one another when they gather under Christ headship. The thing is that the body is often quenched by a one man pastor ministry or a few others and silenced and Christ is not allowed to participate with them full in the body. All can wait on the Lord and have gifts and ministries even if they are not in the five fold ministry as scripture clearly teaches. here are just a small sample of such scriptures. There are many many more

"As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." 1 Peter 4;10,11

and yes this would be in a gathering to "one another" as peter says and this would have been in homes of believers as the apostolic pattern was as led by Christ to do so.

"How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted...37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant." 1 Cor 14:26-31,-34, 37,38)

Again this was when they came together and all was allow to happen in Gods order, "let all things be done:. Even if there was some problems God did not stop all body ministry through Christ to the body

"15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.:" (Ephesians 4:15,16

This is how Christ builds his church, from within believers as we also (in Him) edify (or build up as a house builder) one another. If this is hindered in any way ( and it is very hindered in many gatherings under the one man ministry that quenches the Spirit) then we must speak up , correct it or withdraw from every brother that walketh disorderly. There is a "set order " in the church and how we ought to behave. This order is to allow God freely to move and effectually work in us.

"
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation" Romans 12:3-8

This is also for the gatherings and outside of the gatherings. But words like prophesy and "one body", members one of another", show this gathering aspect. Prophecy is for the church also as 1 Cor 14 says. Also ministry can be to one another as well.

"And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another." (Romans 15;14)

the one another part is the key as well.

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." ( Colossians 3:16

this verse is key. the word of God dwells in us and we are then able to teach and admonish one another. this is for the gathering as well. Paul also warns the believers to Beware lest any man spoil them Col 2:8 The word "spoil" means to "rob them of their goods". This is what the one man pastor ministry does often by quenching the spirit by not allowing body ministry as they gather at any time they are led. They hinder this and spoil them by having their man made traditions and philosophies that make the word of God of no effect and their programs and mans order.

"Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do." ( 1 Thessalonians 5;11)

here again the body is told to comfort one another and "edify" one another even as they did. These letters were written many years after Christ and this shows the normative order that the churches had then.

"Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching." (Hebrews 10:25)

How often have we heard ministers quote the first part of this verse, about not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together. But we seldom hear the next part to "exhort ONE ANOTHER" this is done as we assemble. It does not say let the one man pastor alone exhort everyone. or you need to get the approval of the man called "the pastor" over all first before you exhort.

"7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.12 ...14 For the body is not one member, but many.15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ..." (1 Corinthians 12:7-12, 14-23)

again, a manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man, to profit withal. Not just to the pastor gift. And how often do some look at the body as though they are not needed, they feel satisfied having an eloquent pastor speaker. This is not right . Even those members which we may think are more feeble and not mature in Christ, are very needed. i have been in home meetings with the church in the house and seen baby Christ and have a word or a revelation or testimony and they are glad to share it and they have edified many by it.

"Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy...3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.4...but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying."1 Corinthians 14:1,3,4,)

Again all can prophesy and seek it to edify the church. Not just one man ministry called the pastor over all.


Ok well, God bless. And with your word and understanding you may be able to oversee gatherings one day if you do not already. In the biblcal order that is if you are free to minister in Christ. But there would also need to be 1 Timothy qualifications first as well and a good example in your walk..

God bless JLB

Yes Brother,

The Lord is restoring the pattern of New Testament ministry to His Church in America. There are more five fold ministers "outside" the local church than within.

Like Saul and David, the anointed leader is dwelling in a cave, a place of obscurity, while the "king" is dwelling in the palace...

Myself, I would rather be in the cave with the anointing, than in the palace without it.

The character and nature of Christ being formed within us is to be desired, over our gifting.

Blessings to you.


JLB

 

[JLB777]

The faith was once delivered to the saints by Jesus and The Spirit of Truth s scripture. This scripture taught of the gift of grace not the law of sin and death and atonement. Combining the two always produces confusion. The kingdom of God is at hand.

Faith does not come from the scriptures, rather faith comes by hearing God.

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Hebrews 11:7

JLB

 

[Open Heart]

how did the one speaking of these things learn it?

The apostles were taught by Jesus, the bishops were taught by the apostles, and so on.

 

[LoveofTruth]

That still doesn't alter the fact that Jesus had a teaching ministry, taught his disciples about God and appointed them also to teach.

If God doesn't want people to teach others about him, but let his Holy Spirit do it directly, why do we have the Bible; the written word of God to us? I'm guessing that God didn't reveal 1 John 2:27 to you supernaturally, you read it in your Bible. The Bible contains 66 books and many events, teachings, prophecies etc about God - written so that people might learn and know the truth. The NT was written in Greek, later translated into Latin and then into English, so that people might be able to read, understand and learn God's word. Human beings still translate it into other languages today so that people in other countries can read God's word in their own language. The authors of the Bible wanted future generations to know God and what he said and taught them, so they wrote it down.
Evangelists and preachers teach when they explain the word of God to non Christians or to any of us who want to understand it. The Holy Spirit inspires them and helps them understand the word that He inspired men to write. The Holy Spirit also applies the word to our lives.



Sorry but this is an example of taking a verse out of context, not understanding what it means but trying to apply it universally.
Jesus was sending the disciples out on a mission - to go into towns and preach the Good News. He told them that if someone rejected their message they were to shake the dust off from their feet and move on. He said that they should be careful because one day they would be arrested for preaching the Gospel, flogged and taken before Kings, leaders and Gentiles. When that happened and they WERE arrested for the Gospel, they needn't worry about how to defend themselves or what they would say, because the Holy Spirit would give them the words. I believe this is what happened. Look at Peter's response and speech to the Sanhedrin in Acts 4; verse 8 says, Then Peter, full of the Holy Spirit, said ...... " His words, Stephen's speech in Acts 7, Paul's defence in Acts 21-24 - all inspired by the Holy Spirit rather than the apostles working out beforehand what they would say.

Jesus said that his disciples would receive help and inspiration from the Holy Spirit when they were arrested and be given the words to defend themselves or to preach the Gospel. He didn't say that the Holy Spirit would explain the Gospel to everyone directly so there was no need for human teachers or evangelists.

you seem to constantly misunderstand what John is saying and what i am saying. Listen in your heart for the anointing to teach you all things, not just some things ALL things. Yes God speaks through men and as believers minister they should always seek to speak as the oracles of God and if any man minister to do it as of the ability which God giveth, that God in all things may be glorified. the problem is that many speak words which mans wisdom teacheth and not which the Holy Ghost teacheth, they are in head knowledge and not heart knowledge and they simply take another mans words and reform them often to a so called "sermon" and fit it in a time frame. many speak of their oen natural understanding and not according to or in the wThey set themselves up in exalted roles over others with such teaching.

But any way you try to get around it, we have no need that any MAN should teach us. Some want men to teach them and not God and not to listen for the anointing of God they get drawn away from the word of Gods grace and depend on their super star leaders . This is not right. Jesus teaches all believers in their heart and when they speak the word of God it witnesses in the hearts of others and it is by the manifestation of the truth that they have the things of God opened to them. Other wise they are blinded and walk in the natural man and carnal mind. They cannot know the things of God, because the things of God are only known by the Spirit.

And yes God gave scripture and all scripture is given by inspiration of God. Not of a private interpretation. The scripture is not mans opinions and natural understanding. Yes men can read on and think they know the truth in their own mind. But the gospel is hidden from them if they believe not, and some are unskillful in the word of righteousness because they do not exercise their spiritual senses. They have no place to do this on a Sunday because they are silenced by the one man ministry and the programs and form.

Also when Jesus said
"it is not you that speak". that was my stress there. Can we say that this is man teaching then? When Paul wrote and spoke to believers he said they did not receive his words as the words of men (or mans teaching) but as it is in truth the word of God which effectually worketh in those that believe. if Jesus said it is not you that speak, then even when they spoke who was speaking?

You said

"Jesus said that his disciples would receive help and inspiration from the Holy Spirit when they were arrested and be given the words to defend themselves or to preach the Gospel. He didn't say that the Holy Spirit would explain the Gospel to everyone directly so there was no need for human teachers or evangelists."

The Spirit does open mens understanding directly to understand the scriptures and Paul said his gospel was not after man but by the revelation of God Galatians 2

"But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ." Galatians 1:11

 

[Open Heart]

If there is no need of teaching, then there is no need of the Bible. We can all toss out our Bibles.

 

[LoveofTruth]

The apostles were taught by Jesus, the bishops were taught by the apostles, and so on.

The apostles as all believers are taught by Jesus no one is taught by MAN in the spiritual life, men are in the physical realm, Christ speaks in the spiritual realm in our hearts the believers hearts burned within them while Jesus opened unto them the scriptures. That is where Christ dwells in our hearts by faith. This is the word or anointing that abides in us and teaches us all things. No man knows the things of God but the Spirit of God and to whom he reveals them.

"But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ" Galatians 1

"But ye have not so learned Christ; 21 if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man,...Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers." Ephesians 4:20,21,29

"And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God....the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:1-5, 11-14)

"that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds: 4 that I may make it manifest, as I ought to speak. 5 Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time. 6 Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:3-6)

notice here as in Ephesians 4 our speech is always with grace. This grace is what God gives to us, not what we give of our own teaching or power. Peter says,

"10 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." ( 1 Peter 4:10-11)

this grace and all gifts are according to the ABILITY WHICH GOD GIVES. So where in all this is mans teaching?

and some teach this way

" But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts," Jude 1:10

Jesus seeks all to worship him in spirit and in truth. All true worship is offered in and by the spirit as is all ministry. Men ought not to do this in their own wills and power. Christ is in the midst of the church singing praise to God and we read that it is "by him we offer the sacrifice of praise. BY HIM, that is. But how many try to worship God in their flesh and natural ability, they may just do forms and ritual and in their own wills and time frames? Paul says we are to present our bodies a living sacrifice to God. We are to sacrifice all things to God be dead to self and walk in his spirit and be led by the spirit. If men are led by another man and their forms and rituals and order then they go out from the spirits leading. Many find it easier to sacrifice in their own wills rather than to wait on God. As Saul did not wait for the prophet. Paul says believers should WAIT on their ministering or teaching etc Romans 12.

Men in their own order and forms outside of the Spirits leading go into all sorts of error and dryness and follow mans eloquence and religious traditions and set men over them who profess themselves to be wise and who have the might of mans reason and eloquence. But this is not right.

and whatever we do in word or in deed we are to do all in the name of the Lord jesus Christ.

this "IN THE NAME", is not to say after every word and action "in the name of Jesus" in the name of Jesus. Imagine how that would sound. You walk over to a person to witness and say "in the name of Jesus", and then you say "hello, in the name of Jesus", do "in the name of Jesus", you "in the name of Jesus" , know "in the name of Jesus" about "in the name of Jesus" Jesus? "in the name of Jesus". No this is not what to do all in the name of Jesus means. It means to be in the character power life attributes of Jesus to be walking in his anointing and life. In all we do and say. So again if this is all done in his name where is mans teaching. yes men speak in Christ. But the teacher is seen in all believers as they speak if they speak in the truth.

All believers when gathered must wait upon God for leading and revelation and whatever he gives. If men receive the gift they should be good stewards of that gift and minister it to one another in Gods grace.

All heresies and mans inventions and traditions of men that make the word of God of no effect, doctrines of men and their whole religious forms and superstitions, ceremonies, rites etc etc etc, come from the natural man outside of the Spirit . Paul says some have a form of godliness but deny the power.

 

[LoveofTruth]

If there is no need of teaching, then there is no need of the Bible. We can all toss out our Bibles.

The holy scriptures were given also by the spirit of God and only understood in the Spirit of God who gave them. The pharisees had the scriptures but missed the living word Jesus in front of them. Jesus said to them

"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word." John 8:43

Some will hear men speak but not hear the word in their heart. This is a different thing.

Deuteronomy 32:1
Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. yet these were written down by man. But whose mouth spoke it, this is similar with the prophets, they spoke but God spoke in the first person through them. could we say that that was man teaching us?
"

Deuteronomy 18:19
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I know .


But it seems to me that the OP is saying that John says that we do not need people to teach us anything at all; that ALL can be revealed by God. I am saying that I do not believe that this is so. There are many very gifted Bible teachers who have helped me to understand the Scriptures in a new way. They have a God given ministry and are using the gift that the Spirit gave them.

Hello, no I am not saying that God does not use all the body of Christ and members in particular to edify one another in his leading. I am saying what John says how that we do not need any man to teach us. The MAN part is the key. Believers , even though we are men and women in the natural, are also new creations where there is neither male nor female and in Christ as we speak it is in the word and life of that new creation. But if we do not speak in that life we then speak in the flesh and natural man, and this is where all false doctrine, traditions of men and error comes from. This is what has built the massive superstructure we see today and it stems from men not waiting on God and walking in the anointing.

Yes Christ as the head works in the body of believers, and we are people in the physical. But if our old man is crucified with Christ what body is he working in. I know this may seem unusual to say it is not man that teaches. But by man I mean the natural man the carnal man, or the old man. The new man in Christ is part of the body of Christ and we are members one of another. We being many are one bread and we are all partakers of that one bread

we listen for Christ word in all not mans teaching. Yes we are physical and use our natural mouths and ears etc. But the spiritual life is what we live and walk in

 

[LoveofTruth]

not needing any MAN to teach us refers to the natural man, the carnal man the old man, not to the new man in Christ all believers are connected in Spirit to the head of the body Christ and he works effectually in the measure of every part.

Where is the old mans teaching in that?

here is another scripture section to consider about this

" Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God. " 2 Corinthians 5:16-20

we are a new creature or a new creation IN CHRIST, and as though God did beseech you by us. God does this not mans teaching.

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them," Galatians 6:15,16

So to live in the new creation is our RULE. Not the rule of man made order or men over us as the gentile rule that Jesus warned about

 

[LoveofTruth]

Yes Brother,

The Lord is restoring the pattern of New Testament ministry to His Church in America. There are more five fold ministers "outside" the local church than within.

Like Saul and David, the anointed leader is dwelling in a cave, a place of obscurity, while the "king" is dwelling in the palace...

Myself, I would rather be in the cave with the anointing, than in the palace without it.

The character and nature of Christ being formed within us is to be desired, over our gifting.

Blessings to you.


JLB

Yes sound words

and all those that were troubled by Sauls ministry came to David in the cave. We can encourage our brothers and sisters who are bound up under these religious forms and men to come out from among them. Or speak the truth to them and seek to help, for those who have ears to hear.

 

[LoveofTruth]

If there is no need of teaching, then there is no need of the Bible. We can all toss out our Bibles.

not needing any MAN to teach us refers to the natural man, the carnal man the old man, not to the new man in Christ all believers are connected in Spirit to the head of the body Christ and he works effectually in the measure of every part.

Where is the old mans teaching in that?

here is another scripture section to consider about this

" Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God. " 2 Corinthians 5:16-20

we are a new creature or a new creation IN CHRIST, and as though God did beseech you by us. God does this not mans teaching.

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them," Galatians 6:15,16

So to live in the new creation is our RULE. Not the rule of man made order or men over us as the gentile rule that Jesus warned about

 

[Strong in Him]

you seem to constantly misunderstand what John is saying and what i am saying. Listen in your heart for the anointing to teach you all things, not just some things ALL things. Yes God speaks through men and as believers minister they should always seek to speak as the oracles of God and if any man minister to do it as of the ability which God giveth, that God in all things may be glorified. the problem is that many speak words which mans wisdom teacheth and not which the Holy Ghost teacheth, they are in head knowledge and not heart knowledge and they simply take another mans words and reform them often to a so called "sermon" and fit it in a time frame. many speak of their oen natural understanding and not according to or in the wThey set themselves up in exalted roles over others with such teaching.

How do you know that many speak according to their own understanding and have head knowledge and not heart knowledge? How do you know that people take another man's words and paraphrase them into a sermon?
Isn't that a bit insulting to, and a judgement on, preachers? How do you know how long preachers pray, read and study for before they give their sermons?

But any way you try to get around it, we have no need that any MAN should teach us.

Well obviously we do; we need Godly, learned Christian men and women to teach us the background, language and culture of the Bible and how to read it. Otherwise we're going to get people pulling verses out of context and saying "this is what God himself has told me and here is a verse to prove it". That is how cults like the JWs and Moonies started, and why we have Christians groups making many different claims - about baptism, whether the gifts of the Spirit are for today, whether we should speak in tongues etc, etc.

Some want men to teach them and not God and not to listen for the anointing of God they get drawn away from the word of Gods grace and depend on their super star leaders .

If people don't know how to hear God, rely too much on the preacher to the point of almost making them an idol or are too scared to listen to God, they need someone to teach them that that is wrong, and why. Some people are just churchgoers and not really born again nor tuned into listening to God. Of course God can break through, minister to them directly and change them, but he may use a human being to be his channel, and the seeker may relate better to a human than to a direct revelation from almighty God.

And if some preachers are glorying in their "superstar preacher" status, not giving glory and due credit to God and misusing their authority by insisting that congregations listen only to them; that is between them and God and one day they may have to deal with the consequences of their actions.

And yes God gave scripture and all scripture is given by inspiration of God. Not of a private interpretation. The scripture is not mans opinions and natural understanding.

I know.

Yes men can read on and think they know the truth in their own mind. But the gospel is hidden from them if they believe not, and some are unskillful in the word of righteousness because they do not exercise their spiritual senses. They have no place to do this on a Sunday because they are silenced by the one man ministry and the programs and form.

You seem to be very scathing about Ministers. You also seem to underestimate the ability of people to search the Scriptures with the help of the Spirit and then to challenge the Minister/change churches if they believe they are being incorrectly taught.

You said

"Jesus said that his disciples would receive help and inspiration from the Holy Spirit when they were arrested and be given the words to defend themselves or to preach the Gospel. He didn't say that the Holy Spirit would explain the Gospel to everyone directly so there was no need for human teachers or evangelists."

The Spirit does open mens understanding directly to understand the scriptures and Paul said his gospel was not after man but by the revelation of God Galatians 2

I know he does.
What I meant was that Jesus told us to preach the word, teach people and make disciples. He didn't say "no one need be an evangelist or witness or even speak about me at all; the Holy Spirit will convert people all on his own, without human help or human teachers."

Though it is completely unnecessary, the awesome fact is that God does use human beings as his channels and mouthpiece.

 

[Strong in Him]

not needing any MAN to teach us refers to the natural man, the carnal man the old man,

I don't believe it does.
If it did, John would not say "we do not NEED any man to teach us", because the carnal, natural, unregenerate person cannot teach us about God; it's impossible. What's more, I don't think he would want, or try, to.
God can still speak through them; though they won't recognise, or believe, it. Just as in the OT God sometimes used pagan nations to punish and discipline Israel so they would run back to God for healing and forgiveness, (it didn't always work like that because the people were sometimes stubborn.) It may seem strange to us, but God can use anything or anyone for his purposes.
But generally speaking, a non Christian, unregenerate, carnal person will not be able, or even have the desire, to teach us about God, spirituality and holy mysteries. So it's not a case of not needing them to teach us; it won't happen.

 

[LoveofTruth]

How do you know that many speak according to their own understanding and have head knowledge and not heart knowledge? How do you know that people take another man's words and paraphrase them into a sermon?
Isn't that a bit insulting to, and a judgement on, preachers? How do you know how long preachers pray, read and study for before they give their sermons?

I am speaking of all men, but many. For example would you consider all Catholic priest to be in the anointing as they speak from their altars? or all Anglicans or men who set a program and tight time schedule for their pre written sermons? I know that many people will seek to find the right words and to help the body. I by no means blanket all in this. But Gods way is to wait on our ministering and this waiting is for Christ the head to work effectually in us as we let the word of Christ dwell in us richly. It does not say you need to go through a form and ritual and pre write up all your notes and make sure they are 45 minutes long and go read a bunch of other writers from the past and see if they say things you can use. Again, this is only if the shoe fits for those who are in this. I have heard ministers use old sermons they wrote way back and they will often give the same message at 11 o clock with the same body jestures and motions.

also"the early church I did not have sermons as I understand. This was invented later the three point sermon by some eloquent orators who became believers. I cant remember the name of the most famous one. John something...

but I am not trying to be mean or critical of all men in this wrong oversight role. I am speaking of true worsip and that being in the spirit and led by the spirit where all can minister to one another under Christ headship.

If any man has a pre arranged sermon and fits it into his time program, and does not allow Christ to effectually work in the body where all can share at any time and minister. Then , no matter how eloquent his message is or how long he prayed, he is hindering the body and this is not Gods order. can God still use scripture spoken in such messages, yes and just as Jesus said of the pharisees when they sit in Moses seat listen but dont go by their works. When scripture is read and when believers speak in the word in some measure truth can still go forth.

But sometimes even what appears to be good can be the enemy of the best. For example, some may say no one can be perfect so why try to perfect the saints and they dont even bother to walk in the perfecting work of God in them. They do not seek to perfect holiness or any form of perfection. They settle for good enough.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I don't believe it does.
If it did, John would not say "we do not NEED any man to teach us", because the carnal, natural, unregenerate person cannot teach us about God; it's impossible. What's more, I don't think he would want, or try, to.
God can still speak through them; though they won't recognise, or believe, it. Just as in the OT God sometimes used pagan nations to punish and discipline Israel so they would run back to God for healing and forgiveness, (it didn't always work like that because the people were sometimes stubborn.) It may seem strange to us, but God can use anything or anyone for his purposes.
But generally speaking, a non Christian, unregenerate, carnal person will not be able, or even have the desire, to teach us about God, spirituality and holy mysteries. So it's not a case of not needing them to teach us; it won't happen.

we do not NEED any man to teach us, is referring to those who seduced them. These men most likely pressed the believers in their NEED to hear them and listen to them.

and still John says the anointing teaches us of ALL THINGS....not just some things. So all teaching comes from the anointing. And this comes from Christ in the body as we edify eachother in that anointing as led and taught by God. We know no man after the flesh as Paul said.

and consider this section again

""And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God....the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:1-5, 11-14)

 

[Open Heart]

For example would you consider all Catholic priest to be in the anointing as they speak from their altars? or all Anglicans or men who set a program and tight time schedule for their pre written sermons?

Yes and yes.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Yes and yes.

i think that explains some things

i do not consider them in the word and order of God

 

[Strong in Him]

For example would you consider all Catholic priest to be in the anointing as they speak from their altars? or all Anglicans or men who set a program and tight time schedule for their pre written sermons?

I have no idea; I don't know their hearts or their spiritual state before God - and neither do you.

Would you have considered Jonathan Edwards to have been "in the anointing" when he stood up to read a sermon that he had written - apparently with his nose nearly touching his notes because he was so short sighted? If you say "no" then you have to find some other explanation for the congregation calling out to be saved and holding onto the backs of their pews so they didn't fall into hell.
That great revival started with a pre written sermon from a man, who read it in a church service.

You can't say that people who are anointed don't study or write sermons, are given the words to say as they go along and speak for as long as it takes, and anyone who writes a sermon which lasts for 20 minutes, and has the help of a commentary to write it is not anointed.
The length and style of the sermon is not evidence of anointing, or the lack of it. God can speak through anyone; through the words they say, or in spite of them. He can speak through hymns and prayers and when there is no sermon at all. He can speak through a traditional service led from the prayer-book, with a prewritten sermon, with the whole thing timed to last exactly an hour. He could speak to, and convict, someone as they leave church and are standing in the car park.
To suggest otherwise is to limit God and give prime importance to the things that men say and do.

I know that many people will seek to find the right words and to help the body. I by no means blanket all in this. But Gods way is to wait on our ministering and this waiting is for Christ the head to work effectually in us as we let the word of Christ dwell in us richly. It does not say you need to go through a form and ritual and pre write up all your notes and make sure they are 45 minutes long and go read a bunch of other writers from the past and see if they say things you can use.

So you're saying that anyone who does this is not anointed by God?
Are you also implying that we cannot be inspired by other people's words, sermons, testimonies or the results of their studies?

I have heard ministers use old sermons they wrote way back and they will often give the same message at 11 o clock with the same body jestures and motions.

So? Can God still not speak through such sermons?

also"the early church I did not have sermons as I understand. This was invented later the three point sermon by some eloquent orators who became believers. I cant remember the name of the most famous one. John something....

You seem to think that a sermon always has 3 points and lasts for x number of minutes. That is not the case. If you want congregations to remember the message, and therefore think about it and apply it to their lives - and if you don't, why are you giving it - it is easier if it is a certain length and broken down into 3 points. A message that lasts an hour might be impressive, lead people to say "didn't they speak well?" and be uplifting for the time that they hear it; but how many people will remember, even half an hour later, what was said? I have heard people who keep speaking almost for the sake of it, when their message might have been more effective and memorable if it had finished half an hour sooner. There is also the practical point that if someone becomes uncomfortable because they have been sitting for so long, they are less likely to listen to what is being said.

If you're thinking of John Wesley, his sermons were nothing like that.

 

[Strong in Him]

i do not consider them in the word and order of God

That doesn't mean that they aren't, only that you do not consider that they are.

 

[LoveofTruth]

That doesn't mean that they aren't, only that you do not consider that they are.

while it is true that there are men who may be saved in such religious systems. The order of God they definately do not follow according to scripture.

If they hinder the body from edifying itself and ministering to one anohter under Christ headship they are not in the order of God. Now can God still use scriptures they speak or a written sermon etc. God can use anything to reach men. But this is not what i am talking about.

many seek to justify their religious system and form and order with the one man leader who has a program and sermon notes etc and try to find some way to say its all ok, because God can use it. This is not what we read in scripture or the way believers walked in the gatherings from scriptures. yes they read scripture that was already given from the past. This still to be "as they were led by the Spirit and as they had received the gift. Then they were to minister in the spirit. And as the spoke they were to speak as the oracles of God and the ability which God gives.

As far as men reading sermons that were already written. God can use words that will convict the heart from many sources. But this is not a church meeting as we are commanded in scripture where all are to wait for revelation and ministry in all things. This would be more like a evangelism meeting or gathering . We see many of the evangelist of old time speaking to large crowds and they eventually gathered into large halls. These became reformed into the church gatherings that we see in many places today. In many gatherings today after the "sermon" is spoken , ministers will have what they call an altar call or a salvation call. This is different than a church gathering for edification of all and mutual body ministry under Christ headship . In the biblical order and meeting we see Christ working in every part, not just in one man at the front. Yes if the man at the front is saved and has God's word in his heart in measure, he can speak from that. But the body ministry is still quenched and hindered.

Jesus said when the pharisees sat i'n Moses seat and read the scriptures they were to listen to them. The scriptures ( that have been written down) are still true and God can use them to touch the hearts of men. But as Peter says related to the men who speak, If any man speak let him speak as the oracles of God. If any man minister let him do it as of the ability which God gives. Paul also said,

"And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God....4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:" ( 1 Cor 2:1,4)

this is still the way to speak.

"As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." ( 1 Peter 4:10,11)

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.