No Literal Hell?

[C-Man]

Here's an idea: Why don't we all just wait and see what happens, and quit busting each others' chops?
Getting into an argument over the internet is like getting into a competition with Johnny Knoxville. Even if you win, you're still a jackass.

 

[OzSpen]

phoenix,

A person can disagree with us on any matter. We don't consign anyone to Hell. Let's see if I can put this into words that will satisfy you. Christ Himself told us about the nature of Hell. If anyone wishes to disagree with God on anything, he is free to do so. That is between that person and God. Do you think that you can send a man to Hell? I certainly don't think that I can do that. No sane person would. So, why do you think that I would do differently. Do I sound insane to you?

Long-term evangelical pastor and writer, John Stott, wrote this about hell:

Emotionally, I find the concept [of eternal conscious torment in hell] intolerable and do not understand how people can live with it without either cauterising their feelings or cracking under the strain. But our emotions are a fluctuating, unreliable guide to truth and must not be exalted to the place of supreme authority in determining it . . . my question must be — and is — not what does my heart tell me, but what does God’s word say? (Evangelical Essentials, pp. 315-16)

I do not agree with what he has stated, but it relates to my question: Can a born-again Christian like John Stott believe in annihilation and go to heaven?

Oz

 

[C-Man]

If it helps, yes. It's a sin committed in ignorance, rather than intention.
I'll not attempt to debate the consequences to others of such a mistake, because we'd have to start another thread.

 

[Mikecpking]

Mike,
For those who die before Christ's return, they are in the intermediate state and not the final state.

Oz

Hi Ozpen,
The intermediate state between death and the resurrection is sheol or hades, not heaven.

John 5:28,29

John 5:28-29 (New International Version)


28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Christ is clear where the believers and unbelivers are.

Daniel 12:2 (New International Version)

2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

The old testament concurs.

and then Peter;

Acts 2:29-34 (New International Version)


29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven






Then Paul:

1 cor 15
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

This clearly states the resurrection will be on the last day.

Finally, Job also speaks of when man is raised up:

Job 14:10-12 (New International Version)


10 But a man dies and is laid low;
he breathes his last and is no more.
11 As the water of a lake dries up
or a riverbed becomes parched and dry,
12 so he lies down and does not rise;
till the heavens are no more, people will not awake
or be roused from their sleep.

 

[OzSpen]

Mike,

In our discussion about life after death, I urge you not to do a mix an match of OT and the NT to prove your point.

With progressive revelation, more is revealed in the NT than in the OT. In interpretation, it is dangerous to consistent interpretation to go back and forth like you do between OT and NT when discussing the intermediate state.

Oz

 

[Mikecpking]

Mike,

In our discussion about life after death, I urge you not to do a mix an match of OT and the NT to prove your point.

With progressive revelation, more is revealed in the NT than in the OT. In interpretation, it is dangerous to consistent interpretation to go back and forth like you do between OT and NT when discussing the intermediate state.

Oz

Shall we ditch the OT? Both the NT and the OT agree on this subject and please don't forget, both Jesus and Paul quoted from the OT!

 

[OzSpen]

Mike,

Shall we ditch the OT? Both the NT and the OT agree on this subject and please don't forget, both Jesus and Paul quoted from the OT!

That is not what I wrote. Please do not deconstruct my writing to say what I did not say.

The whole of Scripture is the authoritative Scripture but there is progressive revelation from OT to NT - more revealed in the NT than in the OT.

Oz

 

[Mikecpking]

Mike,

That is not what I wrote. Please do not deconstruct my writing to say what I did not say.

The whole of Scripture is the authoritative Scripture but there is progressive revelation from OT to NT - more revealed in the NT than in the OT.

Oz

But when scripture makes a clear statement, you can't make the NT contradict what is said in the OT.

So, if Ezekiel states in 18:4 that the soul that sins will die clearly means there is no such thing as an immortal soul

 

[OzSpen]

But when scripture makes a clear statement, you can't make the NT contradict what is said in the OT.

So, if Ezekiel states in 18:4 that the soul that sins will die clearly means there is no such thing as an immortal soul

Yes, it is in Ezek. 18:4, but it's also in 18:20, "The soul who sins shall die".(Ezekiel 18:20)

Let's read the verse and its context:

"The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?" (Ezek 18:20-23 NIV).

The message is very simple for those who know the difference between physical life and eternal life. God, through Ezekiel, said that the soul who sins shall die (vv. 4, 13, 18, 20). What did God mean? He states it clearly that the more that people sin, the more they will experience God's judgment and will die.

In the NT, James provides a similar message: " Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death" (1:15 NIV). Rom. 6:23 confirms: " For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

We don't have to be a genius to discern what type of life and death Ezekiel was talking about. It is very obvious that Ezekiel is talking about physical life and physical death and the blessings and curses that come from such. Ezekiel is not speaking of eternal death.

This is what God said to Adam (the man) in Genesis 2:17: "But you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." Did Adam die physically immediately? No! So, "death" in God's language means more than dying physically. The future of the human race focuses on this single prohibition. What kind of "death" is it?

If we keep the biblical view of "death" in view, we see that death as separation from God and it happened immediately for Adam (and Eve). But physical death did not happen immediately.

Oz

 

[phoenixdem]

phoenix,

Long-term evangelical pastor and writer, John Stott, wrote this about hell:

I do not agree with what he has stated, but it relates to my question: Can a born-again Christian like John Stott believe in annihilation and go to heaven?

Oz

It seems as though you are on some sort of crusade here. I think I have answered your question. If it doesn't satisfy you, you will have to contend with it.

 

[Mikecpking]

Yes, it is in Ezek. 18:4, but it's also in 18:20, "The soul who sins shall die".(Ezekiel 18:20)

Let's read the verse and its context:
The message is very simple for those who know the difference between physical life and eternal life. God, through Ezekiel, said that the soul who sins shall die (vv. 4, 13, 18, 20). What did God mean? He states it clearly that the more that people sin, the more they will experience God's judgment and will die.

In the NT, James provides a similar message: " Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death" (1:15 NIV). Rom. 6:23 confirms: " For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

We don't have to be a genius to discern what type of life and death Ezekiel was talking about. It is very obvious that Ezekiel is talking about physical life and physical death and the blessings and curses that come from such. Ezekiel is not speaking of eternal death.

This is what God said to Adam (the man) in Genesis 2:17: "But you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." Did Adam die physically immediately? No! So, "death" in God's language means more than dying physically. The future of the human race focuses on this single prohibition. What kind of "death" is it?

If we keep the biblical view of "death" in view, we see that death as separation from God and it happened immediately for Adam (and Eve). But physical death did not happen immediately.

Oz

Hi Ozpen,
It clearly defines that 'soul' in the bible is either the whole living person or the life bound up in the body. People are ignorant of the fact that the idea of 'soul' is NOT the immaterial part of a person and try to read into scripture the Greek idea of soul being something that floats off to heaven or hell at death.

 

[DeaconDean]

John F. Walvoord, then, President of Dallas Theological Seminary, Editor, Bibliotheca Sacra wrote:

Higher criticism during the last century has been marked by an unrelenting attack on any form of literal eschatology. The concept that the Bible can actually prophesy future events in detail with accuracy is abhorrent to the liberal mind. Every effort accordingly is made to date prophetic utterances after the event prophesied as illustrated in the dating of Daniel in the second century B.C. The premise is that detailed prophecy of the future is impossible for either God or man. Although it is often couched in terms of objective scholarship, it is obvious that such a premise is extremely subjective and prejudicial to any calm evaluation of the data. It is built on a thesis that God is not sovereign, is not omniscient, and is not omnipotent. Further, it involves a theory of revelation which renders impossible communication of details to man beyond his natural wisdom. Such higher criticism spares no fundamental of orthodoxy and is free to revise its theology as well as the statements of Scripture to harmonize with the thesis involved.

Realized Eschatology, John F. Walvoord

Interesting...

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Timothew]

The doctrine of eternal torment is either true or it is not. Traditionalists say it is. Conditionalists say it is not. But only the Word of God can give an authoritive answer. The Christian's duty is to humbly receive whatever the Scripture says - on this or any subject - and then faithfully proclaim it as befits God's stewards.

The only question that matters here is the teaching of Scripture

Edward Fudge, The Fire That Consumes

Only god knows the facts, and if His revelation of them is rightly interpreted, no tradition (even an Evangelical tradition) has a good claim to be heard against it . . . . Evangelicals, who criticize the Roman Church for putting tradition on a level with the Bible, must be very careful that we ourselves do not unwittingly fall into the same snare . . . The question is simply, What do His words mean? . . . No Protestant should object to being asked to re-examine any traditional belief in the light of the Word of God, searching the Scriptures to see whether these things be so.

H.E. Guillebaud The Righteous Judge quoted by Edward Fudge

Baptists in particular are "People of the Book" and should only be concerned with what Scripture actually says about eternal torment or a different eternal consequence of sin. I am a Baptist and it concerns me when we put the tradition of Eternal Torment over the very words of Scripture.

You may disagree with me on Scripture, but let's discuss this based on Scripture and not mere tradition. Do we accept that Eternal Torment is biblical merely because we had always assumed that it was, and we never gave it much thought?

 

[Basil the Great]

If it helps, yes. It's a sin committed in ignorance, rather than intention.
I'll not attempt to debate the consequences to others of such a mistake, because we'd have to start another thread.

Thanks to your reply and due to the importance of the matter, I have indeed begun a new thread.

 

[MichaelKelley]

If the damned are tormented forever then they too are immortal just like the saved.

As Bro. Mike Sams at First Baptist Church of Martin, Tennessee says a lot, "We were all created for eternity and we're going to spend it somewhere."

Check out Isaiah 66:23-24 and Mark 9:48.

 

[Timothew]

As Bro. Mike Sams at First Baptist Church of Martin, Tennessee says a lot, "We were all created for eternity and we're going to spend it somewhere."

Check out Isaiah 66:23-24 and Mark 9:48.

Is the view of everyone's natural immortality biblical? Or are we only immortal if we are resurrected into immortality by Jesus Christ?

Here is Isaiah 66, with the context from the NASB. I'll highligh portions to show that this does not say that everyone is immortal regardless of their status in Christ.

Be joyful with Jerusalem and rejoice for her, all you who love her;
Be exceedingly glad with her, all you who mourn over her,

That you may nurse and be satisfied with her comforting breasts,
That you may suck and be delighted with her bountiful bosom.”
For thus says the LORD, “Behold, I extend peace to her like a river,
And the glory of the nations like an overflowing stream;
And you will be nursed, you will be carried on the hip and fondled on the knees.
“As one whom his mother comforts, so I will comfort you;
And you will be comforted in Jerusalem.”
Then you will see this, and your heart will be glad,
And your bones will flourish like the new grass;
And the hand of the LORD will be made known to His servants,
But He will be indignant toward His enemies.
For behold, the LORD will come in fire
And His chariots like the whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
For the LORD will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the LORD will be many.
“Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens,
Following one in the center,
Who eat swine’s flesh, detestable things and mice,
Will come to an end altogether,” declares the LORD.
“For I know their works and their thoughts; the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and see My glory. “I will set a sign among them and will send survivors from them to the nations: Tarshish, Put, Lud, Meshech, Tubal and Javan, to the distant coastlands that have neither heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they will declare My glory among the nations. “Then they shall bring all your brethren from all the nations as a grain offering to the LORD, on horses, in chariots, in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem,” says the LORD, “just as the sons of Israel bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD. “I will also take some of them for priests and for Levites,” says the LORD.
“For just as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I make will endure before Me,” declares the LORD,
“So your offspring and your name will endure.
“And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the LORD. “Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.”

This is saying that the Lord will execute the wicked. It is not saying the wicked will live forever in agony. Those slain by the Lord will be many. This is saying the people of Jerusalem will look on the corpses of men who transgressed against the Lord. Their worm shall not die and their fire shall not be quenched means that their destruction will be complete, the fire will not be quenched before they are consumed by it. Their worm will not die before they are consumed by their worms. This is talking about dead people.

The Mark passage doesn't prove that everyone has immortality either, since it is a quote of this Isaiah passage.

 

[OzSpen]

Is the view of everyone's natural immortality biblical? Or are we only immortal if we are resurrected into immortality by Jesus Christ?

Here is Isaiah 66, with the context from the NASB. I'll highligh portions to show that this does not say that everyone is immortal regardless of their status in Christ.

This is saying that the Lord will execute the wicked. It is not saying the wicked will live forever in agony. Those slain by the Lord will be many. This is saying the people of Jerusalem will look on the corpses of men who transgressed against the Lord. Their worm shall not die and their fire shall not be quenched means that their destruction will be complete, the fire will not be quenched before they are consumed by it. Their worm will not die before they are consumed by their worms. This is talking about dead people.

The Mark passage doesn't prove that everyone has immortality either, since it is a quote of this Isaiah passage.

Timothew,

The Bible does demonstrate immortality of the soul for all people.

Sincerely, Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Hi Ozpen,
It clearly defines that 'soul' in the bible is either the whole living person or the life bound up in the body. People are ignorant of the fact that the idea of 'soul' is NOT the immaterial part of a person and try to read into scripture the Greek idea of soul being something that floats off to heaven or hell at death.

Mike,

That is not the teaching of Scripture. Your view that "soul" as the immaterial part of a person is a Greek idea is false - based on the Bible.

The NT teaches immortality after the resurrection, but it also teaches the conscious existence of the soul between death and the resurrection, in what is known as the intermediate state.

Christ’s promise to the thief on the cross was “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Stephen, the martyr, prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit” (Acts 7:59). He did not pray, “Lord Jesus, send me to the grave to sleep until the resurrection of the just and unjust.”

Paul’s classic statement of the immortality of the soul is in 2 Cor. 5:8, “Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.” Paul as he was contemplating his own death, wrote: “I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better” (Phil. 1:23). There is no hint in Paul’s teaching of going to sleep in the grave before the resurrection of the just. He knew that when he died he would “be with Christ.” How does that compare with this life? It is “far better.”


Some contend that in I Corinthians 15 Paul is correcting a false doctrine in Corinth of the immortality of the soul. Nowhere does Paul even hint at this. He wrote this passage to correct a false doctrine: “How can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?” (I Cor. 15:14).

This passage of I Cor. 15 corrected a Sadducees-kind-of false doctrine, that there is no resurrection of the dead. It is fallacious to say that Paul was correcting a false doctrine of the immortality of the soul. Paul’s punch line is in v. 16: “For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised.” Immortality of the soul means that the soul continues in conscious existence after death and will be reunited with the body in the resurrection of all people.

When we go to the book of Revelation, we find an example of the souls of martyred people who are conscious and in heaven: “When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne” (Rev. 6:9). But as for the wicked, even the beast and the false prophet who where were thrown alive into the lake of fire (Rev. 19:20) were alive 1,000 years later (Rev. 20:10). What will happen to the devil, the beast and the false prophet? “They will be tormented day and night forever and ever” (Rev. 20:10).

In Matt. 17:3 we read, “And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.” Here Moses and Elijah, who had been dead for hundreds of years, were alive and conversing about Christ’s death on the Mount of Transfiguration.

Sincerely, Oz

 

[Timothew]

Timothew,

The Bible does demonstrate immortality of the soul for all people.

Sincerely, Oz

Go back and reread the Isaiah 66 passage. Are the corpses immortal? Are the people who are slain by God immortal? Do people who perish according to John 3:16 have immortality?

The only way to have immortality is to receive it from God who alone is immortal. "This is the way to have eternal life, by knowing you the only true God and Jesus Christ the one You sent to earth." John 17:3 NLT

 

[Mikecpking]

Mike,

That is not the teaching of Scripture. Your view that "soul" as the immaterial part of a person is a Greek idea is false - based on the Bible.

The NT teaches immortality after the resurrection, but it also teaches the conscious existence of the soul between death and the resurrection, in what is known as the intermediate state.

Omn the contrary, there is plenty of evidence that the Greeks influenced the Jews on these concepts:

From the Jewish encyclopedia:

Hellenistic View.
(see image) Page from the First Edition of Immanuel ben Solomon's "Meḥabberot," Brescia, 1491.(In the Columbia University Library, New York.)The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended

Read more: JewishEncyclopedia.com - IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL​

The intermediate state is also clear in scripture that death is 'sleep' and there is no conciousness:

Check out these scriptures:

Psalm 146:4

King James Version (KJV)


4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecclesiastes 9:5

King James Version (KJV)


5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten

Christ’s promise to the thief on the cross was “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Stephen, the martyr, prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit” (Acts 7:59). He did not pray, “Lord Jesus, send me to the grave to sleep until the resurrection of the just and unjust.”

Did Jesus go to paradise that day? Acts 2:29-34 clearly states Christ was in the grave for 3 days. As there was no punctuation in Greek, this can be solved by moving the comma after the word 'today'.
Stephen was asking God to receive his ruach breath (see Ecclesiastes 12:7 ) to return to God. Please look at the next 5 words "and then he fell asleep"

Paul’s classic statement of the immortality of the soul is in 2 Cor. 5:8, “Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.” Paul as he was contemplating his own death, wrote: “I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better” (Phil. 1:23). There is no hint in Paul’s teaching of going to sleep in the grave before the resurrection of the just. He knew that when he died he would “be with Christ.” How does that compare with this life? It is “far better.”

Paul does not say the soul is immortal anywhere, because your definition of soul is not supported. When you die, you will be unconscious and when you are resurrected, you will find yourself concious on the last day. Look at this scripture:

Job 14:10-12

New International Version (NIV)


10 But a man dies and is laid low;
he breathes his last and is no more.
11 As the water of a lake dries up
or a riverbed becomes parched and dry,
12 so he lies down and does not rise;
till the heavens are no more, people will not awake
or be roused from their sleep.


And
John 6:
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and .”I will raise them up at the last day

John 5:28-29

New International Version (NIV)


28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned


The truth is Jesus clearly states that we are in the graves until the last day.

Some contend that in I Corinthians 15 Paul is correcting a false doctrine in Corinth of the immortality of the soul. Nowhere does Paul even hint at this. He wrote this passage to correct a false doctrine: “How can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?” (I Cor. 15:14).

This passage of I Cor. 15 corrected a Sadducees-kind-of false doctrine, that there is no resurrection of the dead. It is fallacious to say that Paul was correcting a false doctrine of the immortality of the soul. Paul’s punch line is in v. 16: “For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised.” Immortality of the soul means that the soul continues in conscious existence after death and will be reunited with the body in the resurrection of all people.

When we go to the book of Revelation, we find an example of the souls of martyred people who are conscious and in heaven: “When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne” (Rev. 6:9). But as for the wicked, even the beast and the false prophet who where were thrown alive into the lake of fire (Rev. 19:20) were alive 1,000 years later (Rev. 20:10). What will happen to the devil, the beast and the false prophet? “They will be tormented day and night forever and ever” (Rev. 20:10).

In Matt. 17:3 we read, “And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.” Here Moses and Elijah, who had been dead for hundreds of years, were alive and conversing about Christ’s death on the Mount of Transfiguration.

Sincerely, Oz

1 corinthians 15 was written, because Corinth; being in Greece, was stating that because souls were immortal, there would be no need for a resurrection. If one's soul went straight to heaven on death, what would be the point of a resurrection?

Here is something interesting I found from Luther and Tyndale.

Here follow Luther and Tyndale in some detail.

Sixteenth Century

MARTIN LUTHER (1493-1546), German Reformer and Bible translator

'The immediate cause of Luther's stand on the sleep of the soul was the issue of purgatory, with its postulate of the conscious torment of anguished souls. While Luther is not always consistent, the predominant note running all through his writings is that souls sleep in peace, without consciousness or pain. The Christian dead are not aware of anything—see not, feel not, understand not, and are not conscious of passing events. Luther held and periodically stated that in the sleep of death, as in normal physical sleep, there is complete unconsciousness and unawareness of the condition of death or the passage of time.† Death is a deep, sound, sweet sleep.‡ And the dead will remain asleep

WILLIAM TYNDALE (1484-1536), English Bible translator and martyr

In Britain William Tyndale, translator of the Bible into English, came to the defense of the revived..

*In his Master of Arts thesis (1946), "A Study of Martin Luther's Teaching Concerning the State of the Dead," T. N. Ketola, tabulating Luther's references to death as a sleep—as found in Luther's Sammtliche Schriften, Walsh's Concordia, 1904 ed.—lists 125 specific Luther references to death as a sleep. Ketola cites another smaller group of references showing Luther believed in the periodic consciousness of some. But the main point is that, while the dead live, they are unconscious—which is stated some seven times.

teaching of conditional immortality. This, as well as other teachings, brought him into direct conflict with the papal champion, Sir Thomas More, likewise of England. In 1529 More had strongly objected to the "pestilential sect" represented by Tyndale and Luther, because they held that "all souls lie and sleep till doomsday." In 1530 Tyndale responded vigorously, declaring:

And ye, in putting them [the departed souls] in heaven, hell, and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection.... And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good case as the angels be? And then what cause is there of the resurrection?—William Tyndale, An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue (Parker's 1850 reprint), bk. 4, ch. 4, pp. 180, 181.

Tyndale went to the heart of the issue in pointing out the papacy's draft upon the teachings of "heathen philosophers" in seeking to establish its contention of innate immortality.
Thus:

The true faith putteth [setteth forth] the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put [set forth] that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshly doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the Spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And because the fleshly-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to stablish it.—lbid., p. 180.

In yet another section of the same treatise, dealing with the "invocation of saints," Tyndale uses the same reasoning, pointing out that the doctrine of departed saints being in heaven had not yet been introduced in Christ's day:

And when he [More] proveth that the saints be in heaven in glory with Christ already, saying, "If God be their God, they be in heaven, for he is not the God of the dead;" there he stealeth away Christ's argument, wherewith he proveth the resurrection: that Abraham and all saints should rise again, and not that their souls were in heaven; which doctrine was not yet in the world. And with that doctrine he taketh away the resurrection quite, and maketh Christ's argument of none effect.—Ibid., p. 118.

Tyndale presses his contention still further by showing the conflict of papal teaching with St. Paul, as he says in slightly sarcastic vein:

"Nay, Paul, thou art unlearned; go to Master More, and learn a new way. We be not most miserable, though we rise not again; for our souls go to heaven as soon as we be dead, and are there in as great joy as Christ that is risen again." And I marvel that Paul had not comforted the Thessalonians with that doctrine, if he had wist [known] it, that the souls of their dead had been in joy; as he did with the resurrection, that their dead should rise again. If the souls be in heaven, in as great glory as the angels, after your doctrine, shew me what cause should be of the resurrection)—Ibid.