No Literal Hell?

[rstrats]

phoenixdem,

re: "My comment was based on your inability to find an eternal Hell in the Holy Scriptures if you did make a thorough study of the subject."

OK, I see — One’s inability to find something in scripture means that one doesn’t want to know. So that would mean that you don’t want to know the truth since you have an inability to see that scripture never says that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment.



re: "...10 he also will drink wthe wine of God’s wrath, xpoured full strength into the cup of his anger, and yhe will be tormented with fire and sulfur ..."

Doesn’t say for how long.
　


re: "...11 And zthe smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever..."

Doesn’t say how long the torment lasts. Only says that the smoke resulting from the torment goes up forever.
　



re: "...and athey have no rest, day or night..."

Doesn’t say for how long that will last.
　



re: "You say that the only exception is ‘possibly’ the devil. Possibly? What does the scripture say?"

Revelation 20:10 says: "And the devil...will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." I say "possibly" depending on what for ever and ever might mean in this case. Jonah says that the earth with its bars closed behind him "forever", yet he was released from those bars after 3 days. And Exodus 21:6 says that a bondslave was to serve his master "forever", yet that servitude ended at some point.
　


re: " ‘20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second
death.’ So Hell is cast into the eternal Lake of Fire. Where Hell goes, so do the inhabitants."

Nothing said here about never ending torture. Only death is mentioned.
　
　
A person has to want to believe in never ending torture and thus interpret scripture in a way to support that belief, Why not want to believe otherwise and interpret scripture to support THAT belief? There is not a single scripture that absolutely has to be interpreted no other way than to mean that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment.

 

[th1bill]

phoenixdem,

re: "Before you begin engraving in stone your belief that God wouldn't do this, you probably should get a Strong's Concordance and do a study on what God has said about Hell."

Believe me I’ve done that and I’ve not found a single scripture that absolutely has to be interpreted no other way than to mean that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment. With the possible exception of the devil’s fate in Revelation 20:10 in the KJV, "torment" and "eternal" are never found in conjunction with each other.
　

re: "Here is a beginning for you in the words of Christ, Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter
halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire
that never shall be quenched..."

Nothing said here about anyone being tormented for eternity.
　

re: "...9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. "

Nothing said here about anyone being tormented for eternity.

that&#347; not a very intelligent move there, friend. You are speaking only to the two verses as extracted from their context <staff edit> When they are placed into their context, just as the Brother was trying to get you to do they state exactly the opposite of that you are trying to sell!

 

[DeaconDean]

nm

 

[rstrats]

th1bill,

re: " thats not a very intelligent move there, friend. You are speaking only to the two verses..."
&#12288;
Those were the only 2 that phoenixdem mentioned in his post #97.
&#12288;
If you know of a scripture that can be taken no other way than to mean eternal torture for those who do not meet the requirements for salvation, I would very much like to see it.

 

[th1bill]

th1bill,

re: " thats not a very intelligent move there, friend. You are speaking only to the two verses..."
&#12288;
Those were the only 2 that phoenixdem mentioned in his post #97.
&#12288;
If you know of a scripture that can be taken no other way than to mean eternal torture for those who do not meet the requirements for salvation, I would very much like to see it.

Sir,
You and your supporter have completely misunderstood what I have said. Please read the above post by myself.

 

[rstrats]

th1bill,

re: "You and your supporter have completely misunderstood what I have said."
&#12288;
OK, sorry. I apparently misinterpreted your meaning. I thought you were for and were advocating eternal torture for those folks who do not meet the requirements for salvation and eternal life.

 

[DeaconDean]

Well then, how do explain away that the same Greek word used for eternal in Jn. 10:28 is the same Greek word used in Rev. 14:11?

If the same Greek word is rendered "eternal" in Jn. 10:28. then why should it not be rendered "eternal" in Rev. 14:11?

You know, I can cite some 648 references outside the Greek scriptures where the same Greek root word is rendered "eternal".

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[rstrats]

DeaconDean,

re: "Well then, how do explain away that the same Greek word used for eternal in Jn. 10:28 is the same Greek word used in Rev. 14:11?"

Although you didn&#8217;t address you question to anyone, I&#8217;ll offer a comment on it.
They aren&#8217;t the same word. The John reference uses #166 in Strong&#8217;s, and Revelation uses #165 in Strong&#8217;s. But even if they were the same word, what point are you making with regard to torturing a person for ever and ever?
&#12288;

re: "If the same Greek word is rendered "eternal" in Jn. 10:28. then why should it not be rendered "eternal" in Rev. 14:11?"

It probably should be if it were the same Greek word.

 

[th1bill]

th1bill,

re: "You and your supporter have completely misunderstood what I have said."
&#12288;
OK, sorry. I apparently misinterpreted your meaning. I thought you were for and were advocating eternal torture for those folks who do not meet the requirements for salvation and eternal life.

Considering that we are both 'finite' men it would be a Fool's Folly to advocate that God, the only Infinite Being in all of creation should do anything! That and pretending that we must be 'for' anything that God does, has done or will do are utter nonsense brought on by a high instance of "sinful pride" and the solution to lower the level here is a healthy dose of repentance followed with thanksgiving and daily doses of Romans 12:1.

 

[theWaris1]

Eph 2:7 That in the ages(Aion) to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Here the English translators translated the Greek word 'Aion' to mean Ages. Are we to believe Ages here means forever like the other translations of Aion? It would make no sense.

Again

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages(Aion) and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

In the classics, "aion" refers to the "life time" of a an individual.

Plato regularly used Aion to mean a definite period of time and never for everlasting.




​

 

[DeaconDean]

They aren&#8217;t the same word. The John reference uses #166 in Strong&#8217;s, and Revelation uses #165 in Strong&#8217;s. But even if they were the same word, what point are you making with regard to torturing a person for ever and ever?

Had you spent the time to study as I pointed out earlier, you would see that Strongs Number 166, is the adjective form of Strongs number 165.

From The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament:

Adj. with 2 and 3 endings "eternal" Orphic, Hymn, 87, 5 (abel), Plato Leg. X., 904a; Resp., II, 3634; Tim. 37d and 38b...

In the New Testament "aiwnioV" (with the rare "aidioV") is used in the sense of eternal in three ways:

1. It is used of God: "tou aiwniou qeou"(Rev. 16:26, "aiwn", 200)

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittel, Editor, Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Translator, Wm. B. Erdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Copyright 1964, Vol. I. "aiwn", Herman Sasse, commenting, p. 208

So Strongs 166 (aiwnion), has its root in Strongs 165 (aiwn)
&#12288;

re: "If the same Greek word is rendered "eternal" in Jn. 10:28. then why should it not be rendered "eternal" in Rev. 14:11?"

It probably should be if it were the same Greek word.

Again, faulty logic as shown by TDNT as one draws from the root of the other.

Thanks for playing, and we have some departing gifts for you.

Thanks for playing.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[OzSpen]

rstrats,

DeaconDean,

re: "Well then, how do explain away that the same Greek word used for eternal in Jn. 10:28 is the same Greek word used in Rev. 14:11?"

Although you didn’t address you question to anyone, I’ll offer a comment on it.
They aren’t the same word. The John reference uses #166 in Strong’s, and Revelation uses #165 in Strong’s. But even if they were the same word, what point are you making with regard to torturing a person for ever and ever?
&#12288;

re: "If the same Greek word is rendered "eternal" in Jn. 10:28. then why should it not be rendered "eternal" in Rev. 14:11?"

It probably should be if it were the same Greek word.

Do you read NT Greek? I do. Quoting Strong's is not a strong indicator that you know NT Greek well enough to parse "eternal" and know the root word.

Sincerely, Oz

 

[New_Believer]

This is something that Jehovah's Witnesses believe. They compare God sending the wicked to Hell to a parent burning a child who has misbehaved. They say how could a loving and fair God send people to Hell? They believe that everything mentioned about Hell in the Bible is figurative so they aren't necessarily going against the bible's word...they are just twisting it to their views. I can't remember where but I know I've heard a verse that says you shouldn't do that. Maybe it's in John?

Now I'm not here to criticize Witnesses. They believe in living like Christ and preaching his word to everyone. I respect them for that and I think a lot of Christians could learn from their effort. But I'm glad I've turned away from their beliefs for the most part. The thing that convinced me (that they're wrong) is the fact that the Witness religion began sometime in the early 1900s or maybe late 1800s? I don't feel like looking it up but it was created by men who were making HUGE profits off it. They prophesied that the world would end a few times...and of course it never happened. One of their predicted dates was 1914. Now they are saying that 1914 was actually the coming of Christ and Satan and his demons or whatever are now living here. They believe 1914 is the beginning of the end of times. I'm not exactly sure how they came about this theory but I do know that we do not know the specific date for when the world ends. But basically all of the Jehovah's witnesses suffered greatly from these false prophesies. They sold their houses, quit work, thinking the end was coming. They ended up poor while the leaders of the Witnesses were very well off money wise. That doesn't add up to me..

They're not as radical as they used to be but it's sad to know most of them don't even know about their religion's shady history.

Sorry to get off topic here. I just thought maybe the person who said this could be a Witness. And many people do not really know much about JWs.

 

[theWaris1]

rstrats,

Do you read NT Greek? I do. Quoting Strong's is not a strong indicator that you know NT Greek well enough to parse "eternal" and know the root word.

Sincerely, Oz

Tell us then. How does the Word "Aion" stand in your opinion?

 

[rstrats]

OzSpen,

re: "Do you read NT Greek?

Not a whit. DeaconDean, said that the SAME word was used in both the John and Revelation references. I don&#8217;t need to read Greek to see that Strong&#8217;s shows two different words. I think DD probably meant that the two words mean the same thing - "eternal". The thing is that I don&#8217;t see what that has to do with the conversation regarding the eternal torturing of folks. My point is that nowhere in scripture are the words eternal/everlasting/forever, etc. used together with torment/torture - with the exception of the devil, as the KJV has it, in Revelation 20:10.

 

[phoenixdem]

There are still those who call God a liar and refuse to believe in an Eternal Hell.

Eternal Punishment

Matt 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee

an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison,
and did not minister unto thee?

25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch
as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the​

righteous into life eternal.

Eternal Fire

Matt 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and
cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or
maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into
everlasting fire.

18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is
better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having​

two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Everlasting Fire

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me,
ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his
angels:

25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and​

ye gave me no drink:

Eternal Fire

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like

manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after
strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance​

of eternal fire.

Everlasting Punishment

Matt 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch
as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the​

righteous into life eternal.

Eternal Destruction

2Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus
shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and
that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the​

presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Eternal Damnation

Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never
forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

 

[OzSpen]

phoenixdem,

When you speak of hell, are you speaking of sheol, hades, tartarus or gehenna?

Thanks, Oz

 

[OzSpen]

rstrats,

OzSpen,

re: "Do you read NT Greek?

Not a whit. DeaconDean, said that the SAME word was used in both the John and Revelation references. I don’t need to read Greek to see that Strong’s shows two different words. I think DD probably meant that the two words mean the same thing - "eternal". The thing is that I don’t see what that has to do with the conversation regarding the eternal torturing of folks. My point is that nowhere in scripture are the words eternal/everlasting/forever, etc. used together with torment/torture - with the exception of the devil, as the KJV has it, in Revelation 20:10.

I urge you not to quote Strongs as your Greek authority when you don't know Greek. You don't know Greek grammar.

The fact is that aiwnios is the same length of time for eternal hell as eternal life. That's Bible and the Greek tells me so.

Oz

 

[phoenixdem]

phoenixdem,

When you speak of hell, are you speaking of sheol, hades, tartarus or gehenna?

Thanks, Oz

What is the Holy Bible speaking of in the references? I haven't changed a thing.

 

[OzSpen]

phoenixdem,

What is the Holy Bible speaking of in the references? I haven't changed a thing.

I believe in the authoritative Scripture. However, the Holy Bible uses 4 Greek words that are translated as "hell". They are, sheol, hades, tartarus or gehenna.

To which ones are you referring? It is important that you know which Greek word is translated hell and what are the differences in meaning.

In Christ, Oz