No Law = No Transgression = Sin no longer exists

[squint]

see above. show me where I misintrepreted so I can get on the right page. From my perspective, and the mindset I was in and the silly stuff so far in the conversation, my interpretation could have been off. Again, I'm not too big to be wrong.

Unlikely...

You may find me unique in that I admit from the outset to be wrong. Very wrong.

s

 

[squint]

Absolutely YHVH's Torah is against evil thoughts.

OK, great. A REAL conversation is much more pleasant, with a TRUTH teller no less.

So, we agree that the law is against the evil that springs up first within or inside our minds, CORRECT?

?

 

[ananda]

OK, great. A REAL conversation is much more pleasant, with a TRUTH teller no less.

So, we agree that the law is against the evil that springs up first within or inside our minds, CORRECT?

?

Yes, YHVH's Law is against evil intent.

 

[squint]

Yes, YHVH's Law is against evil intent.

Alright. And thanks for bearing with me btw. These seem like rather simple matters for me, but for some it's like pulling teeth if ya know what I mean?

In the order of business then would you also accept that we are tempted internally, that is in mind, by the tempter? That would be Satan or perhaps one or more of his messengers?

?

 

[ananda]

Alright. And thanks for bearing with me btw. These seem like rather simple matters for me, but for some it's like pulling teeth if ya know what I mean?

In the order of business then would you also accept that we are tempted internally, that is in mind, by the tempter? That would be Satan or perhaps one or more of his messengers?

?

I do not believe that Ha'Satan or his associates has any internal power over the faithfully righteous.

 

[TannarDarr]

Unlikely...

You may find me unique in that I admit from the outset to be wrong. Very wrong.

s

I won't sacrifically say it's all on me. Too much of a pragmatist, but if you can show me where I went left and not right so I can see it, understand it and thus own it, I'm game.

 

[squint]

I do not believe that Ha'Satan or his associates has any internal power over the faithfully righteous.

Oh, so you bow out at the point of being internally tempted by Satan to sin?

Perhaps this will be our point of departure then?

You never have an EVIL TEMPTING THOUGHT by the TEMPTER?

???

Is that your final answer?

???

 

[RDKirk]

I do not believe that Ha'Satan or his associates has any internal power over the faithfully righteous.

I agree, making three clarifications:

1. We are certainly likely to have minds that are not fully renewed, and may well continue to labor under old desires, dragging us into sin. ...each person is tempted when he is dragged away by his own evil desire and enticed.
-- James 1

2. While the Adversary has no internal power over us (that is, power within our minds), he and his associates still have billions of hours of experience with human nature, and they know our own personal histories and that of our ancestors.

3. While the Adversary has no internal power over us (that is, power within our minds), he and his associates can still affect our physical bodies and he can still arrange the physical circumstances around us.

Those two advantages of the Adversary place us against him in the position of a novice chess player opposing a Grand Master.

I'm a pretty rudimentary chess player...really, I only know the moves of the pieces--no real knowledge of strategy to speak of. Once I was playing a quite advanced player.

After the third move, he announced, "I will checkmate you in eight moves."

Well, I already knew I was hardly a match for him, and that a checkmate was surely in my future. But how could he predict my demise in eight moves?

Well, he was absolutely correct. In exactly eight moves, he announced "checkmate" and that was it.

That was because he knew the game so well. He knew the ways most people commonly move, he knew the strategies such that he had no problem pushing me exactly the way he wanted me to go--without me even realize I was being pushed.

No, he did not have to enter my mind--he only had to herd me into his trap.

The advantage we have over the Adversary is the counsel of the Holy Spirit. When we operate in the Holy Spirit--and only then--can we make a move that the Adversary does not see coming.

 

[squint]

I agree, making three clarifications:

1. We are certainly likely to have minds that are not fully renewed, and may well continue to labor under old desires, dragging us into sin. ...each person is tempted when he is dragged away by his own evil desire and enticed.
-- James 1

2. While the Adversary has no internal power over us (that is, power within our minds), he and his associates still have billions of hours of experience with human nature, and they know our own personal histories and that of our ancestors.

3. While the Adversary has no internal power over us (that is, power within our minds), he and his associates can still affect our physical bodies and he can still arrange the physical circumstances around us.

Those two advantages of the Adversary place us against him in the position of a novice chess player opposing a Grand Master.

I'm a pretty rudimentary chess player...really, I only know the moves of the pieces--no real knowledge of strategy to speak of. Once I was playing a quite advanced player.

After the third move, he announced, "I will checkmate you in eight moves."

Well, I already knew I was hardly a match for him, and that a checkmate was surely in my future. But how could he predict my demise in eight moves?

Well, he was absolutely correct. In exactly eight moves, he announced "checkmate" and that was it.

That was because he knew the game so well. He knew the ways most people commonly move, he knew the strategies such that he had no problem pushing me exactly the way he wanted me to go--without me even realize I was being pushed.

No, he did not have to enter my mind--he only had to herd me into his trap.

The advantage we have over the Adversary is the counsel of the Holy Spirit. When we operate in the Holy Spirit--and only then--can we make a move that the Adversary does not see coming.

Here the process we should all be interested in engaging is The Living Word and to approach same 'honestly' even if the information appears at first to be detrimental to us, WHEN IT ISN'T.

I for one do not have any issues with saying that the TEMPTER tempts me in MIND and I think that is an honest answer.

I would consider your denial and insulation away from that fact to be an untruthful approach. Jesus doesn't save us from ourselves, but from the wicked one we are saved.

Christianity 101

s

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by squint

Alright. And thanks for bearing with me btw. These seem like rather simple matters for me, but for some it's like pulling teeth if ya know what I mean?
​

In the order of business then would you also accept that we are tempted internally, that is in mind, by the tempter? That would be Satan or perhaps one or more of his messengers?

​

I do not believe that Ha'Satan or his associates has any internal power over the faithfully righteous.

Has he got any kind power at all over the faithfully righteous Christian?



.

 

[squint]

And to move past the chess game mentality, once any honest legalist admits to themselves that the tempter does have internal access to our minds and hearts to tempt and that the LAW will forever stand against that wicked one, the notion of being legally obedient or a non sinner are passed away in favor of simply being truthful about it and understanding that Jesus is in our midst dividing US from that evil worker.

There is then more than just YOU or I within the LUMP.

Part of the Gospel promise is that we will sometime receive a NEW BODY where the bad actor does not have access.

And until then The Good Shepard protects His sheep, and will fight off the wolf.

It is an internal matter. Not a one time event either.

Anybody can fall into A LIE and make A LIE and when they do, they merely show ownership, one way or another.

One does not have to DENY GODS LAW or GODS WORDs whatsoever.

We simply have to see who it is FACTUALLY against, which will not change.

The tempter is not about to be 'legal' in anyone.

and when any see this, their real battles in faith are only beginning.

Some of you are just not going to 'get it.'

s

 

[ananda]

Oh, so you bow out at the point of being internally tempted by Satan to sin?

Perhaps this will be our point of departure then?

You never have an EVIL TEMPTING THOUGHT by the TEMPTER?

???

Is that your final answer?

???

Show me Scripture where it states that Ha'Satan can "insert" evil thoughts into a faithful, righteous man or woman. I have not seen such.

What I have seen is that Messiah stated thus instead: "Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you."

 

[ananda]

I agree, making three clarifications:

1. We are certainly likely to have minds that are not fully renewed, and may well continue to labor under old desires, dragging us into sin. ...each person is tempted when he is dragged away by his own evil desire and enticed.
-- James 1

2. While the Adversary has no internal power over us (that is, power within our minds), he and his associates still have billions of hours of experience with human nature, and they know our own personal histories and that of our ancestors.

3. While the Adversary has no internal power over us (that is, power within our minds), he and his associates can still affect our physical bodies and he can still arrange the physical circumstances around us.

Those two advantages of the Adversary place us against him in the position of a novice chess player opposing a Grand Master.

I'm a pretty rudimentary chess player...really, I only know the moves of the pieces--no real knowledge of strategy to speak of. Once I was playing a quite advanced player.

After the third move, he announced, "I will checkmate you in eight moves."

Well, I already knew I was hardly a match for him, and that a checkmate was surely in my future. But how could he predict my demise in eight moves?

Well, he was absolutely correct. In exactly eight moves, he announced "checkmate" and that was it.

That was because he knew the game so well. He knew the ways most people commonly move, he knew the strategies such that he had no problem pushing me exactly the way he wanted me to go--without me even realize I was being pushed.

No, he did not have to enter my mind--he only had to herd me into his trap.

The advantage we have over the Adversary is the counsel of the Holy Spirit. When we operate in the Holy Spirit--and only then--can we make a move that the Adversary does not see coming.

Agreed!

 

[RDKirk]

Has he got any kind power at all over the faithfully righteous Christian?

He has power over external forces and events, as we see with his buffeting of Job. He could destroy Job's earthly possessions, he could even afflict Job's body, but he had no power to enter Job's mind and cause Job to sin against God.

That is external power...but whether that is power over the faithfully righteous Christian--being where Jesus wants him, doing what Jesus would have him do--we can argue in that case that the Adversary does not have power over the faithfully righteous Christian even externally.

Scripture speaks to us as believer about how we commit sins and how temptation works in us.

...each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. -- James 1

So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.

What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. -- Romans 7

There is no mention here of Satan being within the believer, but rather of the believer in a struggle of sanctification against the nature of the flesh to which his mind had been enslaved before being liberated by Jesus.

 

[from scratch]

I agree, making three clarifications:

1. We are certainly likely to have minds that are not fully renewed, and may well continue to labor under old desires, dragging us into sin. ...each person is tempted when he is dragged away by his own evil desire and enticed.
-- James 1

2. While the Adversary has no internal power over us (that is, power within our minds), he and his associates still have billions of hours of experience with human nature, and they know our own personal histories and that of our ancestors.

3. While the Adversary has no internal power over us (that is, power within our minds), he and his associates can still affect our physical bodies and he can still arrange the physical circumstances around us.

Those two advantages of the Adversary place us against him in the position of a novice chess player opposing a Grand Master.

I'm a pretty rudimentary chess player...really, I only know the moves of the pieces--no real knowledge of strategy to speak of. Once I was playing a quite advanced player.

After the third move, he announced, "I will checkmate you in eight moves."

Well, I already knew I was hardly a match for him, and that a checkmate was surely in my future. But how could he predict my demise in eight moves?

Well, he was absolutely correct. In exactly eight moves, he announced "checkmate" and that was it.

That was because he knew the game so well. He knew the ways most people commonly move, he knew the strategies such that he had no problem pushing me exactly the way he wanted me to go--without me even realize I was being pushed.

No, he did not have to enter my mind--he only had to herd me into his trap.

The advantage we have over the Adversary is the counsel of the Holy Spirit. When we operate in the Holy Spirit--and only then--can we make a move that the Adversary does not see coming.

Chess is a very interesting game. Good parallel and post.

 

[squint]

Show me Scripture where it states that Ha'Satan can "insert" evil thoughts into a faithful, righteous man or woman. I have not seen such.

James 3:
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.


When any believer says they don't have evil thoughts or they are not tempted by the tempter...


they are not truthful.

What I have seen is that Messiah stated thus instead: "Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you."

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

No believers 'sin' is an exception.

s

 

[RDKirk]

When any believer says they don't have evil thoughts or they are not tempted by the tempter...


they are not truthful.

What are you actually claiming here? Are you claiming that a believer's own thoughts are pure and that "the devil made me do it?" Are you claiming the believer is possessed by Satan?

Nobody has said that we don't have evil thoughts. In fact, that has been precisely the point I've been making. I do have evil thoughts.

But those evil thoughts are my evil thoughts, generated within my own flesh. I've already presented the scripture--for a believer, temptation is from the lusts of his own flesh, of his own eye, and his own pride of life.

 

[squint]

What are you actually claiming here? Are you claiming that a believer's own thoughts are pure and that "the devil made me do it?" Are you claiming the believer is possessed by Satan?

If you say your sin isn't of the devil and John says otherwise is there one of those parties who may be speaking honestly?

IF the devil is involved with sin, and we all have sin, is it reasonable to say that begins within by evil thoughts which are temptation thoughts?

Simple enough? Why spin it up to possession when it's a temptation thought from the tempter? Like sensationalism for some reason?

And if the temptation thought, that evil thought is of the devil, what makes you think the devil made you do anything? It would be the tempters thought would it not?

Nobody has said that we don't have evil thoughts.

Well BRAVO. A morsel of fact squeaks out.

Jesus said evil thoughts defile us. Jesus also said lusting after a woman in heart is committing adultery in heart. Would you like to claim that evil thoughts are not sin or that adulterous thoughts are not sin? That you get to play with the tempters thoughts for awhile until you decide to make them yours?

In fact, that has been precisely the point I've been making. I do have evil thoughts.

Believers who say they don't are liars in my book. And I think they are in Jesus' Book too.

But those evil thoughts are my evil thoughts, generated within my own flesh. I've already presented the scripture--for a believer, temptation is from the lusts of his own flesh, of his own eye, and his own pride of life.

You can spin your internal sins away from the tempter all you please.

Here is HOW Jesus showed us sin starts:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

s

 

[ananda]

James 3:
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

When any believer says they don't have evil thoughts or they are not tempted by the tempter...

they are not truthful.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

No believers 'sin' is an exception.

s

None of the verses you quoted has anything to do with Ha'Satan inserting evil thoughts into a faithful, righteous man or woman.

 

[squint]

None of the verses you quoted has anything to do with Ha'Satan inserting evil thoughts into a faithful, righteous man or woman.

Then I'd suggest the attempt to insulate evil thoughts from being sin or sin being of the devil is where you want to go.

Too bad, really. You were doing so good up to the tough parts.

Oh well.

s