No Hell?

[lmnop9876]

Oh, you're playing the "devil's advocate." You'd better be careful-you almost had me fooled.

I kind of accept the Orthodox view. I believe that Heaven is an eternal enjoying of the love and presence of God for all those who accept this through God's grace. Hell is an eternal separation from God, a rejecting of the love and salvation He offered in Christ. nothing could be more painful than knowing that that love and salvation was offered to them, but they rejected it. nothing could be more blissful than fulfilling your chief purpose in life, which is to bring glory to God and to enjoy Him forever.

 

[edie19]

Ummm. . . The Calvinists are desperately trying to resist God's wrath and justice? In all of the churches that I have ever been to, the Calvinists are the ONLY ones who actually preach/discuss/teach about God's wrath against sin and his unrelenting justice. However, your view of unrelenting is different from ours. By God's unrelenting justice, we mean that He will punish the unjust/unconverted forever in Hell. He will not relent in His punishment of them. However, WE know that God's justice, while unrelenting, took the just punishment away from those who are saved and put in on His Son, Jesus, when He died on the cross. So, the justice of God against the sins of the elect was turned from them but His justice didn't just disappear, it went to Christ who paid for our sins in full. Unlike what you seem to be believe, we don't believe that God will turn His wrath against the elect. Why don't we believe this? Because He has already turned His wrath against Jesus.

I don't see what WE have to repent of in our theology concerning this issue, my friend.

I'm with you Erin, I've never met a Calvinist/Reformed theologian who would say that. When one considers that Calvinists are the ones who loudly affirm that man is depraved, totally sinful and deserving of God's righteous wrath the statement is all the more confusing.

 

[edie19]

. . . . This is a false analogy. Jesus Christ had a human body, God does not. Moreover, Jesus entered the world for the purpose of being crucified. God the Father will not deign to humiliate himself in such a manner. For it is written, "Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess." And by then it will be too late. . . . Jon

Amen - I truly can't wait for that day.

edie

 

[lmnop9876]

I'm with you Erin, I've never met a Calvinist/Reformed theologian who would say that. When one considers that Calvinists are the ones who loudly affirm that man is depraved, totally sinful and deserving of God's righteous wrath the statement is all the more confusing.

you've missed Cappadocian's point. she's saying that you focus too much on salvation as an escaping the wrath of God, and miss the part about restoring communion with God, becoming partakers of the divine nature, and enjoying His love and being in His presence for ever.

 

[edie19]

you've missed Cappadocian's point. she's saying that you focus too much on salvation as an escaping the wrath of God, and miss the part about restoring communion with God, becoming partakers of the divine nature, and enjoying His love and being in His presence for ever.

Go back to Jon's post from the Westminster Catechism. Or try Keach's Catechism:

Q. 1. Who is the first and best of beings?

A. God is the first and best of beings.

(Isaiah 44:6; Psalm 8:1; 97:9)

Q. 2. What is the chief end of man?

A. Man's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy Him forever.

(1 Cor. 10:31; Psalm 73:25-26)

Q. 41. What benefits do believers receive from Christ at death?

A. The souls of believers are at death made perfect in holiness, and do immediately pass into glory, and their bodies, being still united to Christ, do rest in their graves till the resurrection.

(Heb. 12:23; Phil. 1:23; 2 Cor. 5:8; Luke 23:43; 1 Thess 4:14; Is. 57:2; Job 19:26)

Q. 42. What benefits do believers receive from Christ at the Resurrection?

A. At the resurrection, believers become raised up in glory, shall be openly acknowledged and acquitted in the day of judgment, and made perfectly blessed in the full enjoyment of God to all eternity.

(Phil. 3:20,21; 1 Cor. 15:42,43; Matt. 10:32; 1 John 3:2; 1 Thess. 4:17)

Q. 43. What shall be done to the wicked at death?

A. The souls of the wicked shall at death, be cast into the torments of hell, and their bodies lie in their graves till the resurrection and judgement of the great day.

(Luke 16:22-24; Ps. 49:14)

Q. 44. What shall be done to the wicked at the day of judgement?

A. At the day of judgement, the bodies of the wicked, being raised out of their graves, shall be sentenced, together with their souls, to unspeakable torments with the devil and his angels forever.

(Dan. 12:2; John 5:28,29; 2 Thess. 1:9; Matt. 25:41)

 

[lmnop9876]

Go back to Jon's post from the Westminster Catechism. Or try Keach's Catechism:

Q. 1. Who is the first and best of beings?

A. God is the first and best of beings.

(Isaiah 44:6; Psalm 8:1; 97:9)

Q. 2. What is the chief end of man?

A. Man's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy Him forever.

(1 Cor. 10:31; Psalm 73:25-26)

Q. 41. What benefits do believers receive from Christ at death?

A. The souls of believers are at death made perfect in holiness, and do immediately pass into glory, and their bodies, being still united to Christ, do rest in their graves till the resurrection.

(Heb. 12:23; Phil. 1:23; 2 Cor. 5:8; Luke 23:43; 1 Thess 4:14; Is. 57:2; Job 19:26)

Q. 42. What benefits do believers receive from Christ at the Resurrection?

A. At the resurrection, believers become raised up in glory, shall be openly acknowledged and acquitted in the day of judgment, and made perfectly blessed in the full enjoyment of God to all eternity.

(Phil. 3:20,21; 1 Cor. 15:42,43; Matt. 10:32; 1 John 3:2; 1 Thess. 4:17)

Q. 43. What shall be done to the wicked at death?

A. The souls of the wicked shall at death, be cast into the torments of hell, and their bodies lie in their graves till the resurrection and judgement of the great day.

(Luke 16:22-24; Ps. 49:14)

Q. 44. What shall be done to the wicked at the day of judgement?

A. At the day of judgement, the bodies of the wicked, being raised out of their graves, shall be sentenced, together with their souls, to unspeakable torments with the devil and his angels forever.

(Dan. 12:2; John 5:28,29; 2 Thess. 1:9; Matt. 25:41)

i have been brought up on the westminster shorter catechism, and am well aware of what it teaches (in fact, i learnt it off by heart when i was 12. ).
what i'm saying is that i think that the point Cappadocian is making is that the western church in general, not just Reformed people, tend to focus on the negative aspects of the Atonement, how God is a just and angry God, we need to come to Christ to escape His anger and the torments of hell we deserve. Orthodox tend to focus on, God is a merciful and loving God, we reject His love by sinning, and lose our communion with Him, we need to come to Christ to restore this communion and truly enjoy the love of God forever. in Orthodox thought, we create hell for ourselves by rejecting the love of God offered through Jesus Christ.

 

[Cappadocian]

PJW --

You're not quite right about the Orthodox understanding -- there will be no "separation from God" in the afterlife. God will place all humans directly in the bright light of his love (i.e. his justice; his wrath) with no discrimination and no cruelty. He will NOT let the people with malice in their heart get away from the heat of his love. So long as they cling to their malice, the light of God's love, projected directly into their hearts, will be experienced as pain.

Why? Because under the light of God's love, the sinner will know itself to be wrong. Love will plant a flag of truth in this horribly rebellious soul, even if no fuller and better conquest is to follow. Such treatment is the most loving thing to do to a human who refuses to be transfigured by love -- this pain is better for the creature itself. For, if evil is present, pain at recognition of the evil, being a kind of knowledge, is relatively good; for the alternative is that the unrepentant soul should be ignorant of the evil, or ignorant that the evil is contrary to its nature, either of which is manifestly bad.

Resist God's wrath? I welcome it. Resist God's justice? I welcome it.

Then why would you prefer to be "forensically justified" (in reformed language) before God rather than to be the object of God's infinite wrath and justice? Why would you like to be regarded by God with the virtue of Christ imputed to you?

What you pass as an eschatology is at odds with the biblical account and full of impious speculation.

My description of heaven and hell is taught by the Bible. See:
"Heaven & Hell in the Afterlife, According to the Bible"
http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html

 

[Erinwilcox]

Then why would you prefer to be "forensically justified" (in reformed language) before God rather than to be the object of God's infinite wrath and justice? Why would you like to be regarded by God with the virtue of Christ imputed to you?

I believe that what Jon meant by welcoming the wrath and justice of God was as follows:

1. God is holy, holy, holy, this is one reason why we are to honor Him

2. God cannot be holy unless he is just, because that would be excusing sin (which a holy God cannot do).

3. In His justice, God must also punish sinners by His wrath.

Therefore, God cannot be God unless he is holy and just and God cannot be holy and just without His wrath. So, a doctrine devoid of the wrath and justice of God is a doctrine completely heretical (unbiblical) and completely changes one's perception of God.

Since we believe that Sinners will be sentenced to hell and the righteous will spend eternity with God, we need to be justified by the blood of Christ or else we will spend eternity separated from God burning in a tormenting hell (which is brought about by the wrath and justice of God). Since we obviously don't want to burn in Hell, we do want to be justified by Christ Jesus and spend eternity with Him.

This is why we welcome the wrath and justice of God (because without them, He would not be God) but are saved by the blood of our Lord.

 

[Jon_]

You're not quite right about the Orthodox understanding -- there will be no "separation from God" in the afterlife. God will place all humans directly in the bright light of his love (i.e. his justice; his wrath) with no discrimination and no cruelty. He will NOT let the people with malice in their heart get away from the heat of his love. So long as they cling to their malice, the light of God's love, projected directly into their hearts, will be experienced as pain.

Attributing wrath to God's love is utterly antithetical. Wrath is a product of God's hate. Moreover, none of this is represented in the Scriptures. Show me the verses upon which you base the belief that God's love will cause pain in the hearts of sinners because they will recognize their sin and that as long as they hold onto their sin it will be painful.

Why? Because under the light of God's love, the sinner will know itself to be wrong.

Is the sinner not under God's love now? Why does "it" not know "itself" wrong now? Why is God's love not painful to "it" now?

Love will plant a flag of truth in this horribly rebellious soul, even if no fuller and better conquest is to follow.

Where is this written?

Such treatment is the most loving thing to do to a human who refuses to be transfigured by love -- this pain is better for the creature itself.

What in the world? This is nonsense. Where is this written and how does it follow?

For, if evil is present, pain at recognition of the evil, being a kind of knowledge, is relatively good; for the alternative is that the unrepentant soul should be ignorant of the evil, or ignorant that the evil is contrary to its nature, either of which is manifestly bad.

Then why would you prefer to be "forensically justified" (in reformed language) before God rather than to be the object of God's infinite wrath and justice? Why would you like to be regarded by God with the virtue of Christ imputed to you?

Forensic justification is the only possible mode of justification. Man is completely unrighteous. We are made righteous only by imputation of Christ's righteousness. Romans 3 and others testify to this.

Even after being regenerated we are incapable of faithfully upholding all of the law.

My description of heaven and hell is taught by the Bible. See: "Heaven & Hell in the Afterlife, According to the Bible"
http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html

I'll have to visit there when I get home. My work firewall is blocking it.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Jon_]

Why would you like to be regarded by God with the virtue of Christ imputed to you?

Because this is the only scriptural possibility:

(Php. 3:9 AV) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
​

The Catholic/Orthodox concept of infused righteousness is shown to be unscriptural by this verse, where as the Protestant doctrine of imputed righteousness is proven biblical.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[seekingpurity047]

PJW --

You're not quite right about the Orthodox understanding -- there will be no "separation from God" in the afterlife. God will place all humans directly in the bright light of his love (i.e. his justice; his wrath) with no discrimination and no cruelty. He will NOT let the people with malice in their heart get away from the heat of his love. So long as they cling to their malice, the light of God's love, projected directly into their hearts, will be experienced as pain.

Why? Because under the light of God's love, the sinner will know itself to be wrong. Love will plant a flag of truth in this horribly rebellious soul, even if no fuller and better conquest is to follow. Such treatment is the most loving thing to do to a human who refuses to be transfigured by love -- this pain is better for the creature itself. For, if evil is present, pain at recognition of the evil, being a kind of knowledge, is relatively good; for the alternative is that the unrepentant soul should be ignorant of the evil, or ignorant that the evil is contrary to its nature, either of which is manifestly bad.



Then why would you prefer to be "forensically justified" (in reformed language) before God rather than to be the object of God's infinite wrath and justice? Why would you like to be regarded by God with the virtue of Christ imputed to you?



My description of heaven and hell is taught by the Bible. See:
"Heaven & Hell in the Afterlife, According to the Bible"
http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html

So, according to you (or the eastern orthodox church), God is not a God of wrath at all, but only a God of love.

Read the OT and tell me that God is not a God of wrath and a God of love.

Randy

 

[Cappadocian]

So, according to you (or the eastern orthodox church), God is not a God of wrath at all, but only a God of love.

Read the OT and tell me that God is not a God of wrath and a God of love.

Randy

The Orthodox believe that God is a God of wrath, but that his wrath is the same as his love. God is a God of wrath but not a God of cruelty or a God of discrimination. To those who refuse to be transfigured by the love of God, his love will be experienced as pain.

In the OT -- yhat thunder and lightning and tempest, that blackness torn with the sound of a trumpet, that visible horror billowed with the voice of words, was all but a faint image of what God thinks and feels against vileness and selfishness, of the unrest of unassuageable repulsion with which He regards such conditions. For love loves unto purity. Love has ever in view the absolute loveliness of that which it beholds. Where loveliness is incomplete, and love cannot love its fill of loving, it spends itself to make more lovely, that it may love more; it strives for perfection, even that itself may be perfected -- not in itself, but in the object. Therefore all that is not beautiful in the beloved, all that comes between and is not of love's kind, must be destroyed. And our God is a consuming fire.

He is against sin: insofar as, and while, they and sin are one, He is against them-against their desires, their aims, their fears, and their hopes; and thus He is altogether and always for them.

Can it be any comfort to them to be told that God loves them so that He will burn them clean? They do not want to be clean, and they cannot bear to be tortured.

The man whose deeds are evil, fears the burning. But the burning will not come the less that he fears it or denies it. Escape is hopeless. For Love is inexorable. Our God is a consuming fire. He shall not come out till he has paid the uttermost farthing.

 

[JJB]

Cappy, what was the purpose of Christ's death and resurrection?

 

[Cappadocian]

Cappy, what was the purpose of Christ's death and resurrection?

An equally interesting question to the Orthodox is "what was the purpose of Christ's incarnation, baptism, transfiguration, miracles, and sermons?" There is as much atonement in Jesus's healing miracles and his walking on water as there is in his crucifixion. Every aspect of Christ's life and work was atoning -- see Irenaeus's "Recapitulation" theory of the work of Christ.

As for the specific meaning of Christ's suffering and resurrection, we understand it through the "Christus Victor" model -- Christ came to save us from the death that we had introduced into the world by breaking our sacramental relationship with God in the Garden. He did this by bearing upon himself that very death and by rising again and thereby voiding it of its power.



But St. Athanasius says it better than me:

Thus, taking a body like our own, because all our bodies were liable to the corruption of death, He surrendered His body to death instead of all, and offered it to the Father. This He did out of sheer love for us, so that in His death all might die, and the law of death thereby be abolished because, having fulfilled in His body that for which it was appointed, it was thereafter voided of its power for men. This He did that He might turn again to incorruption men who had turned back to corruption, and make them alive through death by the appropriation of His body and by the grace of His resurrection. Thus He would make death to disappear from them as utterly as straw from fire.​

And the Bible's says it better than me:

"The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil"​

And C.S. Lewis says it better than me:

"But what does it all mean?" asked Susan when they were somewhat calmer. "It means," said Aslan, "that though the Witch knew the Deep Magic, there is a magic deeper still which she did not know. Her knowledge goes back only to the dawn of time. But if she could have looked further back, into the stillness and the darkness before Time dawned, she would have known that when a willing victim who had committed no treachery was killed in a traitor's stead, the Table would crack and Death itself would start working backwards."

We are told that Christ was killed for us, that His death has washed out our sins, and that by dying He disabled death itself. That is the formula. That is Christianity.

​

 

[StAnselm]

MOD HAT ON​

A reminder, people, that people from other congregations are not allowed to debate in Semper Reformanda:

Rule 2.2b: The Congregation subforums only allow debate between people belonging to the Congregation - others can only post fellowship and ask questions.

MOD HAT OFF
​

 

[ascribe2thelord]

Found this in the Christian teen section. Is it really possible for somebody to read their Bible and come away with saying that there is no hell? Can a person be saved and believe that there is no hell? What would they need to be saved from?

Notice, all you who might be reading this, I didn't mention any names, so you can't get on my case.

You cannot be saved unless you first believed you are worthy of eternal punishment. From there proceeds the seeking of the soul towards salvation, and if God's grace has allowed, then that person will be saved.