No Hell?

[Jon_]

I'm sorry that she feels this way. I thought that the post sounded very loving.

Don't worry, Erin. Some people are just slaves to their emotions and allow things to affect them in ways they never should.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[hlaltimus]

Can a person be saved who does not believe in hell? Yes, but that is a reversal of propriety in God's sight. Could Moses disobey God in striking the rock twice and still be blessed with a successful issue of water? Yes again, and for the same reason. God does, at times, bless us in spite of our imperfect performance. This is necessary, on His part, while we are in this highly imperfect state or nobody would ever be blessed in anything at all. The necessary object of justifying faith, (that which saves,) is not one's belief in the reality of hell, but one's belief in the reality of the preceptive and penal righteousness of Christ, and that that righteousness is theirs, legally. The problem that I have with a person who rejects the plain, biblical evidence for hell is that they are in reality asking a favor from God on the one hand, while at the same time calling Him a liar who has so abundantly declared that there is such a place. That is a reversal of propriety and if it works, will only prove just how great is the extent of His forbearance.

 

[StAnselm]

What, then, are we saved from?

That's easy - lots of things. Not just hell, but also sin - both its penalty and its power. And the Devil - we're saved from his power as well.

So, I do find it hard to see why belief in eternal punishment is essential to salvation.

Don't forget, denying the existence of hell is not the same as believing in universalism - one could, for example, hold to annihilationism. Sure, that would mean that they do not fully appreciate the severity God's judgment against sin, nor the magnitude of Christ's atoning death - but full appreciation of all that Jesus has done is not a requirement of salvation.

(but of course, most Arminians don't follow it to its logical end anyway).

Yes, and it's a glorious inconsistency. For them, it's far better that they are inconsistent.

 

[PapaLandShark]

I'm sorry that she feels this way. I thought that the post sounded very loving.

Thanks Erin...that is what was intended. As was your post I believe.

Days I wish I could reach through this screen and hug/hold/touch some of these folks.

 

[lmnop9876]

There is simply no logic to this argument...

The Bible is quite clear. Accept it or reject it.

Just my $0.02...

unfortunately, we no longer have 1 or 2 cent coins in australia.

 

[edie19]

I'm sorry that she feels this way. I thought that the post sounded very loving.

Erin - you're fine. You didn't assign her mother anywhere, you asked about possibilities when it came to Shannon's feelings, you didn't place blame nor were you accusatory in any manner. As always, your post came across as concerned and caring.

edie

 

[edie19]

What, then, are we saved from?

To once again quote my pastor (this is my favorite of everything I've heard him say)

We're saved by God from God for the glory of God.

 

[Cappadocian]

Just to provide some perspective...

Orthodox Christianity teaches that, after this life is over, God will bathe all humans in the light of his love with absolutely no discrimination and no cruelty. This experience will be bliss for those who would prefer to be transfigured by this love and will be painful for those who would prefer to retain their malice, ignorance, and selfishness.

We can imagine that some people who have currently rejected a belief in the Trinity will nevertheless experience the love of God as bliss. We can also imagine that some people who have defended a belief in the Trinity will nevertheless experience the love of God as painful. (Such will be the case, for example, for John Calvin should he refuse to repent for his treatment of Michael Servetus.)

We can also imagine that everybody will experience the love of God as bliss (apokatastasis ton panton), and that everybody will experience the love of God as painful (this is my own personal prediction).

Thus, Orthodox Christians do not believe in "hell" as Protestants use this word (the idea of God glorifying himself by rendering infinite penalties upon non-believing sinners).

 

[lmnop9876]

Just to provide some perspective...

Orthodox Christianity teaches that, after this life is over, God will bathe all humans in the light of his love with absolutely no discrimination and no cruelty. This experience will be bliss for those who would prefer to be transfigured by this love and will be painful for those who would prefer to retain their malice, ignorance, and selfishness.

We can imagine that some people who have currently rejected a belief in the Trinity will nevertheless experience the love of God as bliss. We can also imagine that some people who have defended a belief in the Trinity will nevertheless experience the love of God as painful. (Such will be the case, for example, for John Calvin should he refuse to repent for his treatment of Michael Servetus.)

We can also imagine that everybody will experience the love of God as bliss (apokatastasis ton panton), and that everybody will experience the love of God as painful (this is my own personal prediction).

Thus, Orthodox Christians do not believe in "hell" as Protestants use this word (the idea of God glorifying himself by rendering infinite penalties upon non-believing sinners).

not necessarily all orthodox people believe this.

 

[Jon_]

Just to provide some perspective...

Orthodox Christianity teaches that, after this life is over, God will bathe all humans in the light of his love with absolutely no discrimination and no cruelty. This experience will be bliss for those who would prefer to be transfigured by this love and will be painful for those who would prefer to retain their malice, ignorance, and selfishness.

We can imagine that some people who have currently rejected a belief in the Trinity will nevertheless experience the love of God as bliss. We can also imagine that some people who have defended a belief in the Trinity will nevertheless experience the love of God as painful. (Such will be the case, for example, for John Calvin should he refuse to repent for his treatment of Michael Servetus.)

We can also imagine that everybody will experience the love of God as bliss (apokatastasis ton panton), and that everybody will experience the love of God as painful (this is my own personal prediction).

Thus, Orthodox Christians do not believe in "hell" as Protestants use this word (the idea of God glorifying himself by rendering infinite penalties upon non-believing sinners).

What is the ultimate conclusion of this doctrine? Because it sounds universalistic to me.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[JJB]

** deleted post. nvmd. carry on.**

 

[Beoga]

Found this in the Christian teen section. Is it really possible for somebody to read their Bible and come away with saying that there is no hell? Can a person be saved and believe that there is no hell? What would they need to be saved from?

Notice, all you who might be reading this, I didn't mention any names, so you can't get on my case.

Hmm, yeah, the lack of a belief in Hell is pretty prevalent in the Christian teens section. The problem arises because of a lack of adherence to Sola Scriptura. I don't doubt that one can be convinced, after reading Scripture, that there is no Hell. This is not because of The Bible, but because of the persons pressupositions. They take what they see in the world and how they believe God should be like, and then read it back into Scripture. They attempt to make God human, bring Him off His throne, that way they can be comfortable in their sin and they don't have to worry about the sin of others. They do not bow down to the authority of the God-breathed Scripture.

 

[Cappadocian]

not necessarily all orthodox people believe this.

Orthodox Christians submit their consciences and minds to the Orthodox Church. We have no doctrine of an "individual priesthood" or a tradition of "free-thinking" or dissent. An Orthodox Christian is a Christian who believes Orthodox doctrine. Any Orthodox Christian who doesn't hold this theology of the afterlife needs to speak with his/her priest in order to get themselves straightened out.

What is the ultimate conclusion of this doctrine? Because it sounds universalistic to me.

There are no conclusions any more ultimate than this -- we pray and hope for apokatastasis, but we recognize the genuine possibility that everyone will feel pain while bathed in divine love throughout eternity. The one thing we can be sure of is God's justice and holiness -- that is to say, his virtue.

 

[Jon_]

There are no conclusions any more ultimate than this -- we pray and hope for apokatastasis, but we recognize the genuine possibility that everyone will feel pain while bathed in divine love throughout eternity. The one thing we can be sure of is God's justice and holiness -- that is to say, his virtue.

Do you even know what love is?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Erinwilcox]

Orthodox Christians submit their consciences and minds to the Orthodox Church. We have no doctrine of an "individual priesthood" or a tradition of "free-thinking" or dissent.
An Orthodox Christian is a Christian who believes Orthodox doctrine. Any Orthodox Christian who doesn't hold this theology of the afterlife needs to speak with his/her priest in order to get themselves straightened out.

What if the Orthodox church is incorrect in some or another form of doctrine? What then? Is a person allowed to differ from the doctrine of the Orthodox church? Seems to me like this is a lack of Sola Scriptura and a promotion of the knowledge/interpretation of man.

There are no conclusions any more ultimate than this -- we pray and hope for apokatastasis, but we recognize the genuine possibility that everyone will feel pain while bathed in divine love throughout eternity. The one thing we can be sure of is God's justice and holiness -- that is to say, his virtue.

So we don't know whether or not God loves us or hates us? He, who promised to wipe away all our tears, stop all death and sorrow would go back on that promise? What about the following verse:
[BIBLE]
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev021.html#4http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev021.html#4shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
[/BIBLE]
This doesn't sound like your doctrine to me; rather, it sounds like the opposite. Sola Scriptura, Sola Scriptura, Sola Scriptura.

 

[lmnop9876]

Orthodox Christians submit their consciences and minds to the Orthodox Church. We have no doctrine of an "individual priesthood" or a tradition of "free-thinking" or dissent. An Orthodox Christian is a Christian who believes Orthodox doctrine. Any Orthodox Christian who doesn't hold this theology of the afterlife needs to speak with his/her priest in order to get themselves straightened out.

ummmm. yes, but it's not even all theologians who believe this so, ...???

 

[Cappadocian]

Do you even know what love is?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

I think so, Jon, why do you ask?

 

[PapaLandShark]

To once again quote my pastor (this is my favorite of everything I've heard him say)

We're saved by God from God for the glory of God.

Amen

 

[Jon_]

I think so, Jon, why do you ask?

Well, I'm just confused by your illustration. You say that in the end times, all will be bathed in God's love and that it will be bliss for some and pain for others. Love is a volition. It is a disposition, an inclination of the will. Love is not an effect. It is a cause. What is the effect that causes this bliss and pain?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[lmnop9876]

Well, I'm just confused by your illustration. You say that in the end times, all will be bathed in God's love and that it will be bliss for some and pain for others. Love is a volition. It is a disposition, an inclination of the will. Love is not an effect. It is a cause. What is the effect that causes this bliss and pain?

i think the orthodox belief is that for those who of their own free will reject this love, it will be pain. for those who receive it, it will be bliss.