No Hell?

[Jon_]

i think the orthodox belief is that for those who of their own free will reject this love, it will be pain. for those who receive it, it will be bliss.

You cannot reject or receive a cause, though. You can only reject or receive an effect. What effect is that in the afterlife is what I would like to know.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[lmnop9876]

You cannot reject or receive a cause, though. You can only reject or receive an effect. What effect is that in the afterlife is what I would like to know.

the effect that is rejected is the salvation offered in Christ to all who believe and accept it.

 

[Jon_]

the effect that is rejected is the salvation offered in Christ to all who believe and accept it.

But then that would mean God continues to offer salvation in Christ after death.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Erinwilcox]

But then that would mean God continues to offer salvation in Christ after death.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Which would then mean that the true religion of the world would be
universalism.

 

[Jon_]

Which would then mean that the true religion of the world would be
universalism.

Precisely. So it seems that Orthodoxy's eschatology necessarily leads to universalism.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Erinwilcox]

Precisely. So it seems that Orthodoxy's eschatology necessarily leads to universalism.

Which, despite the name orthodox, is grossly unbiblical.

 

[lmnop9876]

i think they teach that everyone who hasn't had a chance to come to Christ in this life will be given a chance to in the next. those who continue to reject Him will have to suffer the pain of Christ's love being offered to them, but refusing to accept it. those who accept Him will have the eternal bliss of being in Christ's presence and enjoying His love. i'm not sure, but i think that they also teach that all those who have rejected Christ in this life will continue to reject Him in the life to come, to their own eternal detriment.

 

[Cappadocian]

Precisely. So it seems that Orthodoxy's eschatology necessarily leads to universalism.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Only if you presume that everyone will willingly yield themselves to God's consuming fires. We know that not everyone will yield themselves to this love because Calvinists are desperately trying to resist God's infinite wrath against sin and trying to resist God's unrelenting justice.

It is universalist only if you presume that people will choose to be transfigured by divine love when they find themselves in the presence of God. We know that this is not true, because we humans did not allow ourselves to be pacified by the presence of God but instead crucified him.

Orthodoxy is NOT universalist, nor does its eschatology "ultimately lead to" universalism. Those who would prefer to keep their sin will experience the bath of God's love as painful -- with a pain quite beyond what our sensibilities will presently endure. The deepest, highest, truest, fittest, most wholesome suffering must be generated in the wicked by a vision, a true sight, more or less adequate, of the hideousness of their lives, of the horror of the wrongs they have done.

It is my opinion that all humans will experience the divine light in this way. You have been warned, so you must now repent!

 

[Erinwilcox]

We know that not everyone will yield themselves to this love because Calvinists are desperately trying to resist God's infinite wrath against sin and trying to resist God's unrelenting justice.

It is my opinion that all humans will experience the divine light in this way. You have been warned, so you must now repent!

Ummm. . . The Calvinists are desperately trying to resist God's wrath and justice? In all of the churches that I have ever been to, the Calvinists are the ONLY ones who actually preach/discuss/teach about God's wrath against sin and his unrelenting justice. However, your view of unrelenting is different from ours. By God's unrelenting justice, we mean that He will punish the unjust/unconverted forever in Hell. He will not relent in His punishment of them. However, WE know that God's justice, while unrelenting, took the just punishment away from those who are saved and put in on His Son, Jesus, when He died on the cross. So, the justice of God against the sins of the elect was turned from them but His justice didn't just disappear, it went to Christ who paid for our sins in full. Unlike what you seem to be believe, we don't believe that God will turn His wrath against the elect. Why don't we believe this? Because He has already turned His wrath against Jesus.

I don't see what WE have to repent of in our theology concerning this issue, my friend.

 

[lmnop9876]

Ummm. . . The Calvinists are desperately trying to resist God's wrath and justice? In all of the churches that I have ever been to, the Calvinists are the ONLY ones who actually preach/discuss/teach about God's wrath against sin and his unrelenting justice. However, your view of unrelenting is different from ours. By God's unrelenting justice, we mean that He will punish the unjust/unconverted forever in Hell. He will not relent in His punishment of them. However, WE know that God's justice, while unrelenting, took the just punishment away from those who are saved and put in on His Son, Jesus, when He died on the cross. So, the justice of God against the sins of the elect was turned from them but His justice didn't just disappear, it went to Christ who paid for our sins in full. Unlike what you seem to be believe, we don't believe that God will turn His wrath against the elect. Why don't we believe this? Because He has already turned His wrath against Jesus.

I don't see what WE have to repent of in our theology concerning this issue, my friend.

Cappadocian's talking about 'Calvinist' practice. i.e. the whole purpose of being saved is to escape God's infinite wrath against sin. in Orthodoxy, the whole purpose is to restore communion between God and man, become a partaker of the divine nature, and enjoy the infinite love of God forever.

 

[Erinwilcox]

Cappadocian's talking about 'Calvinist' practice. i.e. the whole purpose of being saved is to escape God's infinite wrath against sin. in Orthodoxy, the whole purpose is to restore communion between God and man, become a partaker of the divine nature, and enjoy the infinite love of God forever.

A love where there is pain, suffering, and tears too? That's not what my Bible teaches. What about the verse in Revelation that I already posted?

 

[Cappadocian]

Cappadocian's talking about 'Calvinist' practice. i.e. the whole purpose of being saved is to escape God's infinite wrath against sin.


In Orthodoxy, the whole purpose is to restore communion between God and man, become a partaker of the divine nature, and enjoy the infinite love of God forever.

. . . and this is accomplished by yielding ourselves to the operation of God's infinite wrath against sin. The Orthodox Christian is one who says to God: "You are so beautiful, I'd sooner be eaten by you than fed by anyone else." To the Orthodox Christian, God plants a lion's kiss and replies: "Dearest daughter, I knew you would not be long in coming to me. Joy shall be yours."

 

[lmnop9876]

A love where there is pain, suffering, and tears too? That's not what my Bible teaches. What about the verse in Revelation that I already posted?

You're not understanding. We look at things from a Western scholastic mindset, Orthodox look at things from an Eastern mystical mindset. There is no pain, suffering, or tears for those who are saved and who enjoy the love of God. There is pain, suffering and tears for those who refuse to accept the love of God. Nothing could be more painful than knowing God is offering His love and salvation through Christ, but the person being proud and arrogant refuses to accept it.

 

[Erinwilcox]

You're not understanding. We look at things from a Western scholastic mindset, Orthodox look at things from an Eastern mystical mindset. There is no pain, suffering, or tears for those who are saved and who enjoy the love of God. There is pain, suffering and tears for those who refuse to accept the love of God. Nothing could be more painful than knowing God is offering His love and salvation through Christ, but the person being proud and arrogant refuses to accept it.

Okay, I think I understand it now. But does God really continue to offer His love to the reprobate for all eternity? If so, where are the reprobate (if not in hell) while He's offering it?

 

[Jon_]

Only if you presume that everyone will willingly yield themselves to God's consuming fires. We know that not everyone will yield themselves to this love . . .

What is "this love"?

. . . because Calvinists are desperately trying to resist God's infinite wrath against sin and trying to resist God's unrelenting justice.

Resist God's wrath? I welcome it. Resist God's justice? I welcome it.

Judge me as you see fit O Lord, only remember your Son and his sacrifice for me. For your mercy's sake O Lord, remember the justifying faith you have given me through your boundless grace. Your will be done.

It is universalist only if you presume that people will choose to be transfigured by divine love when they find themselves in the presence of God.

Again, what is the effect of this "divine love"? This is a pretty ambiguous phrase. It does not really say much.

We know that this is not true, because we humans did not allow ourselves to be pacified by the presence of God but instead crucified him.

This is a false analogy. Jesus Christ had a human body, God does not. Moreover, Jesus entered the world for the purpose of being crucified. God the Father will not deign to humiliate himself in such a manner. For it is written, "Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess." And by then it will be too late.

Orthodoxy is NOT universalist, nor does its eschatology "ultimately lead to" universalism. Those who would prefer to keep their sin will experience the bath of God's love as painful . . .

Another assertion that God's love will be painful (for some). What does this mean? How can a volition cause pain? Why is it painful after death but not before? What effect does this love cause that creates such pain? More importantly, where in Scripture is any of this even alluded to?

. . . with a pain quite beyond what our sensibilities will presently endure.

This is nothing but speculation.

The deepest, highest, truest, fittest, most wholesome suffering must be generated in the wicked by a vision, a true sight, more or less adequate, of the hideousness of their lives, of the horror of the wrongs they have done.

This does not follow.

It is my opinion that all humans will experience the divine light in this way. You have been warned, so you must now repent!

I already have. You are speaking to the choir.

Rather, I should warn you that what you pass as an eschatology is at odds with the biblical account and full of impious speculation. For that you have great cause to repent.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Jon_]

Cappadocian's talking about 'Calvinist' practice. i.e. the whole purpose of being saved is to escape God's infinite wrath against sin. in Orthodoxy, the whole purpose is to restore communion between God and man, become a partaker of the divine nature, and enjoy the infinite love of God forever.

Then she is still painting a caricature of Calvinism.

What is the chief and highest end of man?

Answer: Man’s chief and highest end is to glorify God, and fully to enjoy him forever.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Jon_]

You're not understanding. We look at things from a Western scholastic mindset, Orthodox look at things from an Eastern mystical mindset.

They can keep the mysticism, thank you very much.

There is no pain, suffering, or tears for those who are saved and who enjoy the love of God.

This is unscriptural. We are called to suffer with Christ. Pain, suffering, and tears are a part of being a Christian. Paul writes in the second epistle to Timothy, "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us" (2:12 AV). In the next chapter he says, "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution" (3:12 AV).

There is pain, suffering and tears for those who refuse to accept the love of God. Nothing could be more painful than knowing God is offering His love and salvation through Christ, but the person being proud and arrogant refuses to accept it.

God does not offer salvation or salvific love to the reprobate; therefore, what you are talking about here is inapplicable.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[lmnop9876]

Okay, I think I understand it now. But does God really continue to offer His love to the reprobate for all eternity? If so, where are the reprobate (if not in hell) while He's offering it?

no-one's saying they're not in Hell. the Hell that they're in is their own refusal to accept God's love through Jesus Christ, and separation from God.

They can keep the mysticism, thank you very much.

i wasn't talking about mysticism, i was talking about a mystical mindset, i.e. looking at things in a spiritual and mysterious way, not a scientific, scholastic, and analystic way.

This is unscriptural. We are called to suffer with Christ. Pain, suffering, and tears are a part of being a Christian. Paul writes in the second epistle to Timothy, "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us" (2:12 AV). In the next chapter he says, "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution" (3:12 AV).

I'm talking about the resurrection, our eternal life will be bliss, enjoying the love and presence of God. I don't know any Calvinist who doesn't teach this.

God does not offer salvation or salvific love to the reprobate; therefore, what you are talking about here is inapplicable.

i'm merely stating what the Orthodox belief is. I think all Protestants acknowledge that Hell is eternal separation from God, spiritual darkness and torment.

 

[Erinwilcox]

i'm merely stating what the Orthodox belief is.

Oh, you're playing the "devil's advocate." You'd better be careful-you almost had me fooled.

 

[Jon_]

i wasn't talking about mysticism, i was talking about a mystical mindset, i.e. looking at things in a spiritual and mysterious way, not a scientific, scholastic, and analystic way.

That's what I was talking about, too.

I'm talking about the resurrection, our eternal life will be bliss, enjoying the love and presence of God. I don't know any Calvinist who doesn't teach this.

Oh, my mistake. The sense of "post-resurrection" wasn't entirely clear.

i'm merely stating what the Orthodox belief is. I think all Protestants acknowledge that Hell is eternal separation from God, spiritual darkness and torment.

Are you sure you really are stating Orthodox belief, though? It might be best if we heard from Cappadocian or other professing Orthodox Christians, so as to avoid attacking a straw man.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon