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Featured No Graven Images...

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Carl Emerson, Jun 1, 2019.

  1. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of Jehovah until the evening, he and the elders of Israel; and they put dust upon their heads.

    Joshua fell on his face before the Ark, so he bowed to it, the word bow doesn’t need to be used here it’s obvious to anyone who can read. So you admit that God for a while made an exception to allow Idolatry? According to Deuteronomy 10:17 God makes no exceptions or partiality when it comes to the law so once again did God contradict himself or not? According to the dictionary meaning of graven image it’s an image that’s worshipped, the dictionary meaning of veneration is to show great respect towards something. There not the same thing.
     
  2. Cis.jd

    Cis.jd Well-Known Member

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    Yup. I can actually agree with you on that. The Church (or the main heads of that locality) has been scripting that.

    The only people who do these parades are near the poverty-line, they are easy targets because they are not educated so their role-models and teachers are religious leaders and celebrities.

    These priests/churches twist Catholic teachings just for the sake of retaining poverty so they can remain in power.

    These are the reasons why I don't go attend church anymore -whether Protestant or Catholic. They have more sins than the people they point fingers at (homosexuals, divorced, atheist, single moms, etc).
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2019
  3. Loversofjesus_2018

    Loversofjesus_2018 Active Member

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    Honestly, I don’t think there is a proper way to find the meaning in the places where scripture isn’t so clear. If scripture is the source of all truth and there are areas where we have to use our own interpretation that is problematic. Problematic because we end up with a lot of people arguing on forums because one interpretation is different from another. So for me unless it’s crystal clear that you can’t come to any other conclusion then I choose to put my pride aside and just say I don’t know... and you said if no one knows the meaning g then the best place to start is could. I would say the best thing to do is say we don’t know. Truth is too important to go with the best of all possible choices. We either know for 100% certainty or we don’t know at all. At least this is how I try and go about it. Thanks for the friendly conversation. Hope I’m not offending anybody
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2019
  4. Tutorman

    Tutorman Charismatic Episcopalian

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    Of course. GT is a place of heresy, heterodoxy, and outright error most of the time with the "I know everything" syndrome because "it's just my Bible and me" followed by "God or the Holy Spirit told me this" so what can one expect but the bashing of Traditional Churches in GT
     
  5. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Jason,

    I think if you look into the Greek on this verse it means 'form' or 'kind' of evil.

    The translation 'appearance' is not accurate.

    The intent of the verse was not to limit activities that appear to others as unrighteous.
    There are observers that have no idea if a matter is righteous or not.

    The intent of the verse is to avoid unrighteousness period.

    The idea of what observers think about it was never intended.

    Would you stop breaking bread because folks think it is evil to drink blood?
     
  6. Robin Mauro

    Robin Mauro Active Member

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    I think the issue is cleared up in the first sentence, you shall not make an idol, and then wrapped up in the end with not bowing down...otherwise there would be no art. Some sects of Christians and some Muslins I think take this too far and don't allow images at all. Also, Catholics, at least none that I know, worship the rosarie or statues, or whatever. They may bow to an image of Christ when entering the sanctuary, but that would not make God jealous because Christ is his son and they are one.
     
  7. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    Um, no. Sorry not sorry but that is patently, hilariously untrue.

    The simple fact of the matter is that the same God who places so much emphasis and importance in Sacred Scripture on our thoughts, intents and heart motives is perfectly capable of distinguishing between acts of dulia, hyperdulia and latria. To suggest otherwise is, honestly, an insult to everybody's intelligence (God's intelligence included).

    So no, try again.
     
  8. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Dear friend, I posted this on a thread referencing Islam...

    Having studied Phenomenology of religion I am aware that the spiritual nature of action is better determined by what is done rather than what is claimed.

    This dialogue referenced the bowing and kissing the black stone in Mecca.

    The claim is that this act constitutes reverence but not worship.

    I claim that the act violates the second commandment.

    As to intelligence - He is using the foolish things of this world to confound the wise.

    Intelligence is the wrong tool to plumb the mysteries of God.

    The following is what I wrote... The thread title is 'What are you worshiping.'

    ========================

    Maybe a further comment on judgements to come to explain better why I conclude that spiritually we can see what is going on by what folks are doing rather than what they claim.

    The question will be - did you care for the hungry, thirsty, stranger, naked, sick or imprisoned.

    The question will be - did you take the mark?

    The question will be - did you swear by the luck of Caesar (Bishop Polycarp was executed for refusing to swear by the luck of Caesar)

    The question will be - did you bow to the black stone?

    God will repay each according to His deeds. Rom 2:6

    Ecclesiastes 12:14
    For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

    All of the recorded judgements to come are associated with actions not claims or justifications.

    Matthew 7
    “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

    Do you think God would have been less angry with the Children of Israel if they were bowing to a black stone rather than a golden calf?
     
  9. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    This entire post is exemplary of why I have so little respect for Protestant theology.

    There is zero nuance, zero texture, zero subtlety. Why bother with careful consideration when a one size fits all Protestant interpretive model exists? You can't see your own circular logic and internally-inconsistent thinking. And it's not worth my while to point them out.
     
  10. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    It was the presence of God above the arc that He was paying homage to...
     
  11. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Time for you to change the chanel by the sounds :)
     
  12. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    I can't stop you from replying to my posts, unfortunately. :)

    But I would if I could.
     
  13. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you have misread where I am coming from...
    I promoted "Viva Christo Rey" a Catholic out reach from a Franciscan Order in Mexico in the face of considerable opposition.
    I believe The Roman Catholic Church has preserved some truths better than any other denomination.
    My Mother was born Catholic but my encounters with Jesus have led me down a different path.
    I think mutual respect is more constructive than polarisation.
     
  14. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

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    I was taught and believe that the verse 5 is the controlling passage to point out the sin in this circumstance...thou shalt not bow down to them. In other words the commandment means we are not to make for ourselves an idol.
    Idol can be anything which we serve...in various forms...over and above God or rather than God. Which may be what you are saying and if so I agree.
     
  15. Mountainmike

    Mountainmike Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Perhaps you might try being civil! Nobody "worships" crosses saints, crucifixes or Mary. And if you researched it even a tiny bit, you would know so. So why be so uncivil as to make a statement so utterly false, targetted at one specific group of christians, then expect a civil response?

    Let me ask you a simple question:

    If you ever went into a catholic church one of the things you would most notice is statues of Jesus himself, indeed many carvings of Him as part of the stations of the cross. Amongst the representations in iconography or sculpture Jesus outnumbers all others by a large factor.

    So: Do you think catholics worship the statues as pieces of wood or Jesus himself? So do you think the statues are treated as Gods, or Just a reminder of Jesus the one they represent?

    Please answer it clearly! Obvious, even for catholic bashers.

    And when you ask someone to pray for you , do you believe you are then worshipping them? Answer again, clearly.

    Now you have answered those questions, admit the asssertion of worship of icons is ridiculous and inflammatory!



     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
  16. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Later on in Israel's history ... some Israelites did begin to worship the bronze serpent. At that point, God led Hezekiah to destroy it (II Kings 18:4).
     
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I am just a simple person. I pretty sure nobody today speaks and writes biblical Greek anymore with the understanding that Paul had. We are only guessing at best. I trust that God preserved His Word in the English by the working of the Holy Spirit as a part of fulfilling His Word. For God's Word claims that it is perfect (Psalms 12:6) (Psalms 119:140) (Proverbs 30:5) and that it will be preserved for all generations (Psalms 12:7) and it will stand forever (Isaiah 40:8) (1 Peter 1:25). In fact, we can test the observable evidence to see if this is true (and it is). So I am not into changing the plain meaning of what God's Word says in my Bible in our world language today to insert a belief into His Word. For how many verses or passages do you read and believe plainly in the English?

    Again, not true. Christians should always be aware of how their actions are perceived by others. This Biblical principle is taught in no uncertain terms in other places of the Bible:

    • Jesus taught that we should go out of our way to make sure we don’t unnecessarily offend those around us by our actions (cf. Matthew 17:24-27).
    • Christians should avoid doing things – even if they aren’t wrong in and of themselves – if doing so might make a brother stumble (1 Corinthians 8:9, 1 Corinthians 8:13).
    • Christians must ensure that they live honorably in the sight of all men (Romans 12:17; 2 Corinthians 8:20-21).
    • Christians need to ask themselves if what they are doing will bring glory to God (cf. 1 Corinthians 10:31).
    • Christians should ensure that they don’t knowingly put an obstacle in anyone’s way (2 Corinthians 6:3)

    But who has ever thought that in history?
    Who thinks like that today?
    Is such a thing a possibility?
    Well, unless you are drinking out of blood bags, or unless you put the wine in a drained out raw looking piece of meat or something, I am pretty positive NOBODY is going to think that way.
    So yeah. Bad example.
    Bowing down before an idol means one is seeking some kind of favor with some kind of entity somewhere by doing so. They can say that it just helps them to focus on the entity, but they should not even pray to anyone but God. Therein lies the problem.


    Source used:
    “1 Thessalonians 5:22 Is Incorrectly Translated, So Don’t Worry About Avoiding The Appearance Of Evil” (The Defense Series) - PlainSimpleFaith
    (Please take note I may not believe everything this author believes or teaches; I am simply in agreement with the part of the article I quoted).
     
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    In Matthew 6:9, we learn in the Lord's prayer that we are to praise Him.

    "Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name." (Matthew 6:9).

    This means that one of the ways we worship God was to be done in prayer. Our giving thanks to en entity is praise to that entity. It is worship. If one is adoring or glorifying an entity in prayer they are worshiping that entity. Besides, there is only one mediator between God and man. The man Christ Jesus. So why would we need some other go between, advocate, or mediator? Is Jesus not good enough to resolve your matters of prayer?
     
  19. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Bringing out what was built on top of the ark has to be an eye opener to those who have believed just creating any image is wrong. It isn't... I imagine creating something that looks evil isn't in God's will... but the point of the commandment is about not making an idol "and bowing to it." That is the difference... worship. We are not to create an image and worship it.
     
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    No. God can make exceptions by direct intervention. This did not meant they can create their own images or idols. For example: God told His people to kill certain nations. But to kill without these orders would have been murder. Even the offering of Jesus could be misunderstood by another (Who does not have all the facts of Scripture) can think that He was simply just taking his own life for no good cause, but this would not be true. Jesus offered His life as a ransom for others.
     
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