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Featured No Graven Images...

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Carl Emerson, Jun 1, 2019.

  1. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You misunderstand, those, what you refer to as "opinions" are what we know for sure to be the truth. IOW, what i say I believe, and what i think you are referring to as opinion is what i feel the bible is saying. You may call it opinion, but for me, there is nothing else, that's what i think the bible says, nothing more.

    Maybe it's the term opinion that's a problem here than anything else. If someone specified they don't know for certain but here is how I see it, then it's a loose opinion, however, it still may be factual and exactly what the bible means. So even at that, it's probably good people give loose opinions as well. I mean if no one knows what it means, at least that starts an argument i that will hopefully lead to figuring it out.

    But that's just my opinion. :)
     
  2. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.“

    I'm trying to figure how it is possible to “serve“ a statue.
     
  3. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That's not what I said...should we bow to it period, as the scripture is definitely saying we should not.

    I'll try again:

    5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them;


    See? it specifies both there. We should not bow down to them OR worship them. Meaning we should not bow down to them, period whether we worship them or not. It's as if you didn't see my explanation at all from before, and my mentioning of the term "or".

    Maybe you just aren't going to see it, and you'll just keep repeating what it is to you, and not pay attention to what the bible actually says there. At any rate, that's the best i can do, the rest is up to you.

    Dictionary says different but please do show me where you get your definition from.
     
  4. Laureate

    Laureate whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?

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    There is a difference between Objects of Worship and Objects being Worshipped, i.e., the Menorah, Bread for Display, etc.,

    All things are permissible when directly ordered from on high, and until the conclusion of things there shall always be mitigating circumstances.

    Notwithstanding, the command pertains to the imaginations of one's heart, and what actually constitutes Reverence and Worship.

    If one (in their heart) lives to watch a particular television program, then they are breaking this commandment.

    Reverence connotes a deep Respect, and Honor shown toward something or someone, and includes Regarding a thing or person as a Point of Reference, Ascribing some one, or thing Credit, or giving some one or thing Recognition for Achievement(s);


    Reverence and Worship also comes with great Apprehension, and grave Concern when and where ever there is the possibility of disappointment.

    Too many have miss handled the crucifix, treating it as a superstitious object that brings good fortune.

    A (private) crucifix, strictly as a reminder, or as a device to trigger a solemn moment in prayer, who can speak against?

    Anything else will breed strife, because the same crucifix will be a stumbling block for those who do not know the difference between an object of worship and an object that is not to be worshipped.

    As elder Paul encouraged us to not place such stumbling blocks before our brethren. ❤
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2019
  5. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No, it specifically is referring to graven images as why would it mention worshipping and bowing to them if it applies to all normal images, Moses bowed to the ark which had images on it and so did every high priest who went into the temple which was filled with images and statues. So either God contradicted himself when he told Moses to make an image or he meant two different kinds of images, images of veneration and images of worship and Idolatry. Actually I got my definition from google, just type in the word graven image and this comes up:

    A carved idol or representation of a god used as an object of worship.
     
  6. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    OK, I've explained the best i could, shown you the sentence structure and proven it says otherwise. It appears you have a mental block there, but I suppose i expected as much.

    I know what it says for certain, why? my opinion is the word is simply trying to tell us, don't even go down that road the least little bit, and no matter our intentions, don't even bow down to it.

    Anyway, doesn't really matter, unfortunately it's likely people aren't going to stop bowing down to carved statues, and if they didn't listen to God they most assuredly won't listen to me. :)
     
  7. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member Staff Member Trainee Supporter

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    We are in the time where people now worship in Spirit and Truth. It is the heart of the matter, not the ritual of the matter that God cares about.
     
  8. Kaon

    Kaon Well-Known Member

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    If the Most High God instructs us to do something, we do it.

    However, we take things too far. We wanted a man king instead of Him, for example. Now we are being lead astray. He told us not to make images of heaven above, or below earth. It is a spiritual distraction. We still believe temples of God exist in buildings; the world is so full of idolatry that there are shows that are devoted to it. People idolize other people.

    So, why can't we be honest about images of DEAD humans, and entities above or below earth?
     
  9. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I asked you questions which you avoided answering, was Moses an idol worshipper for bowing to carved images or not and did God contradict himself by giving Moses a command to make images on the ark and to fill the tabernacle with statues and icons or are images of veneration distinct from graven images which I also demonstrated was what the second commandment talks about not general images. I’ve provided evidence rebutting your claims so you have to provide the appropriate response otherwise your misquoting of scripture is meaningless, but pretty much like most evangelical fundamentalists your going to believe everything based on a false premise of what the Bible actually teaches no matter if it is wrong or deviant from historical Christianity. It seems people these days want to believe in the heresy of iconoclasm which is based off of Islam not historical Judaism or Christianity.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2019
  10. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Present your scripture on Moses bowing down, please.

    And what evidence did you rebut my claim with?
     
  11. Sketcher

    Sketcher Born Imperishable

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    I'm fine with depicting Christ in the flesh properly - to illustrate what he did in his earthly ministry. My response was geared at clarifying the command against graven images among the commands to make cherubim.
     
  12. PaulCyp1

    PaulCyp1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Verse 3 and verse 4 together constitute an essential truth of Christianity - We are not to make AND WORSHIP graven images. To do so is the sin of idolatry. Reading verse 3 without verse 4 is totally ridiculous. We are not to make statues? Why not? Is the Lincoln Memorial a pagan shrine? No, because nobody in their right mind WORSHIPS it. Likewise with statues and artwork in the Christian Church. Since the earliest days, the Church Jesus Christ founded has been honoring and remembering the great men and women who played important roles in the history of Christianity. Obviously no-one WORSHIPS either the inanimate objects themselves, or the great Christians whose images they represent.
     
  13. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Joshua 7:6 says that Joshua and the Jews bowed down to the ark which had images and religious iconography on it. Jews today all pray on the western wall where the temple once stood, in the past they prayed in the direction of the temple which housed images in it and as you know the high priest would pray in the tabernacle once a year, the same tabernacle which housed images in it. I said very clearly if God contradicted himself by commanding Moses to make images as a violation of the first commandment or do you admit that images of veneration aren’t graven images?
     
  14. Loversofjesus_2018

    Loversofjesus_2018 Active Member

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    “Could” be factual means that they aren’t sure. So if everybody is running saying what they think they are doing more harm than good. If God didn’t make it 100% clear isn’t just better to say we’re not sure? If it’s even a possibility that we could be wrong doesn’t that mean we aren’t sure? I’m not trying to argue or cause problems I really am trying to understand. Since I personally see this as one of the biggest issues in my walk. It seems nobody truly knows what they are taking about. My interpretation, your interpretation and anybody else’s interpretation. We’re all over the place. Just seems much easier to stop adding commentary and just say God didn’t make it clear so I won’t try and make something fit.
     
  15. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Joshua fell to the ground in front of the Ark. It's an extreme stretch to say he bowed down to it or worshiped it. So, unless it it says specifically, he bowed down to it, then he did not.

    There is no "contradiction", it's just one of many exceptions to the rules God made.

    If they are graven images, they are graven images, regardless of if or not they are graven images of veneration.

    I don't know how to see things any way but the logical way. Doesn't say he 'bowed' so he didn't bow, and graven images are graven images.
     
  16. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Arguing is only disusing a disagreement, and that's not a bad thing, and if it results in truth, it's actually a good thing.. :)

    At least they are saying "could", there are many who just pop off anything as truth/fact.

    But again, if no one knows what the meaning is, the only way to find the meaning is to start with "could" be's, and work on it. Fortunately anywhere the bible might not be perfecly clear (and it is clear in most places) there will be another place in the bible that makes that same unclear verse, clear. But if that weren't so, how would you recommend we find proper meaning, if starting with the "coulds" are not acceptable?
     
  17. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    Obviously because there are examples of both in the bible. There is a difference between worshiping false idols or people and veneration of symbols representing God or Jesus.

    Just like there is a difference between prophecy and fortune telling for example.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2019
  18. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member Staff Member Trainee Supporter

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    [​IMG]
     
  19. Danielwright2311

    Danielwright2311 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You are correct, we are not to have any statues and bow down to them or worship them period, no interpretations needed.
     
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    We are told to flee idolatry. That means run in the opposite direction of anything that might resemble it or tempt you to do it. Also, Paul says to avoid having any appearance of evil. So even if folks claim that they are not worshiping an idol or statue when they are bowing down to it, the problem is that it makes it look like one is worshiping that idol. Best to run in the other direction away from any kind of statue (which are idols) and can lead to idolatry. But if one don't care to play it safe with the Lord, then by all means, they have free will to gamble with their own soul (if one feels it is really worth it to toy with such things). For me, I will play it safe, rather than be sorry.
     
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