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How did Christ appear to Stephen as he was being stoned? Not saying that we are to make a theological doctrine based only on it, but to observe the incident.As far as my understanding the bible is not quite clear on how the end will take place or if it takes place. It is only clear that Christ must appear to those who obtain salvation.
How did Christ appear to Stephen as he was being stoned? Not saying that we are to make a theological doctrine based only on it, but to observe the incident.
Full preterism is as old as the church (2 Timothy 2:18,
2 Thessalonians 2:2), just as the post-trib rapture
doctrine is as old as the church (Matthew 24:29-31,
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7).
Fair enough.Futurism per se shouldn't be confused with
dispensationalism, as one can hold to futurism while
rejecting dispensationalism's false dichotomy between
the church and Israel (contrast Ephesians 2:12-19,
Galatians 3:29, Romans 11:17).
What is literal about this? Take your pick between the angels and fire or what Paul means by "and to us as well". Also I do take it more literal than you doMatthew 24:30-31 will be fulfilled literally. It's the
same event as 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 1 Thessalonians
4:15-17.
Since I consider Josephus a record of it:
I believe those were the angles AND I believe that the promise was kept to those in Thessalonica "and to us as well". Thus I am literal on both counts. You are not.Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.
Revelation 1:1 is didactic. Revelation 6 is in a vision. Taking a vision literally and a didactic statement figuratively is not remotely literal.In Revelation 1:1, "shortly come to pass" can be
understood in light of 2 Peter 3:8-9, for none of the
events of Revelation chapters 6:3-21:8 have occurred
yet.
Matthew 24:30 will be fulfilled literally. The Greek
word translated as "tribes" can be translated as
"kindreds" (Revelation 7:9, 13:7, 5:9), and the Greek
word translated as "earth" can mean the planet
(Matthew 6:10, 11:25, 28:18).
Revelation 1:7 will be fulfilled literally. Even those
long dead and in Hades could be made to see the second
coming (cf. Luke 16:23).
This word is used 31 times:
Matthew 19:28: "judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
Matthew 24:30: "then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and"
Luke 2:36: "the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher: she was of a great age,"
Luke 22:30: "judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
Acts 13:21: "of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years."
Romans 11:1: "an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin."
Philippians 3:5: "of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews;"
Hebrews 7:13: "are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance"
Hebrews 7:14: "Judah; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning"
James 1:1: "Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting."
Revelation 1:7: "him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of"
Revelation 5:5: "Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root"
Revelation 5:9: "blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people,"
Revelation 7:4: "a hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children"
Revelation 7:5: "Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe"
Revelation 7:5: "twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand."
Revelation 7:5: "twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand."
Revelation 7:6: "Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe"
Revelation 7:6: "twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Naphtali were sealed twelve thousand."
Revelation 7:6: "twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand."
Revelation 7:7: "Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe"
Revelation 7:7: "twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand."
Revelation 7:7: "twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand."
Revelation 7:8: "Of the tribe of Zebulun were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe"
Revelation 7:8: "twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand."
Revelation 7:8: "twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand."
Revelation 7:9: "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and"
Revelation 11:9: "the people and kindreds and tongues and nations"
Revelation 13:7: "him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."
Revelation 14:6: "to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,"
Revelation 21:12: "are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:"
Thats how I see it.Revelation chapters 2-3 are addressing seven actual
first-century local church congregations in seven
cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11).
It says those who are in Judea quite literally.Matthew 24:17 will be fulfilled literally for those
in the church who have roof-top patios or gardens
and will be in them at the time that the abomination
of desolation occurs (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36,
2 Thessalonians 2:4).
Indeed the flagship of futurism's "literal" interpretation of Ezekiel , all instead turned into symbolism.Ezekiel 37:11 suggests that Ezekiel 37:1-4 could be
symbolic of the loss of hope of Israel in its
Babylonian Captivity. Ezekiel 37:12 could refer both
symbolically to the return of Israel to its land after
the Babylonian Captivity, and literally to the
resurrection of believers at the second coming
(1 Corinthians 15:22-23, 1 Thessalonians 4:16,
Revelation 20:4-6).
Ezekiel 38:4 is literal, as is the rest of Ezekiel
chapters 38-39, which will be fulfilled after the
millennium (Revelation 20:7-9).
What I found interesting was it shows JESUS standing. Guess He was a little "miffed" at the Judeans.Hello Notrash,
It is interesting that Stephen immediately saw him.
What I found interesting was it shows JESUS standing. Guess He was a little "miffed" at the Judeans.
Acts 7:56 and said, "Look! I see the heavens having been opened and the Son of the Man standing out of rights of the God!"
59 And they stoned the Stephen, upon-calling and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit"
Reve 6:16 And they are saying to the mountains and to the rocks: 'Be falling on us! and hide us! from Face of the One sitting upon the Throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb-kin" [Hosea 10:8/Luke 23:30]
Everyone will be a preterist only when Revelation 21:4
has come.
---
Revelation 1:1 is didactic, but must be understood in
light of 2 Peter 3:8-9, for Revelation chapters 6-22
haven't happened yet.
It could have but it doesn't since in context it means land. Only severe vitamin D poisoning causing excess ossification could result in me missing "flee Judea" in the Gospels.Revelation 6:4-8 is a vision foretelling a literal war
which, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics,
will end up killing one-fourth of the world. The "great
sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4b) could represent
nuclear weapons.
Well then I hope God comes down real hard on them and soon because it was to give them relief from persecution.(7and to give relief to you") and if he has not intervened yet and they have been persecuting them for 2000 years then they got a whoopin in store for them thats for sureRevelation 6:12-14 is a vision foretelling a literal,
probably volcanic, cataclysm.
Everything in Matthew 24:30-31 is literal, just as is
everything in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9, 1 Thessalonians
4:16-17, and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8. We don't have to
pick between angels and fire in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8,
for there will be both at the second coming.
The "us" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7 means that Jesus'
second coming descent to the earth in judgment will
include all believers of all times (Revelation 19:14),
for they will all have just been resurrected together
(1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52) and raptured into the
clouds to meet Jesus in the air on his way down
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).
Since the Judean rulers where using Rome to persecute the saints and then to find Rome against them I think perhaps there was plenty of relief.Josephus contains no record of 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8,
which is the same unfulfilled event as Revelation
19:11-21 and Matthew 24:30-31
Right , I forgot, a gathering is not a gathering, and hour is not an hour, an apostasy is not an apostasy. Everything is the opposite with the futurist decoder ring. I lost mine 15 years ago.Nothing in 1 John, 2 John, or Jude requires that the
apostasy of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and Matthew 24:10-12
has occurred yet, for it will occur in connection with
the time of the Antichrist committing the abomination
of desolation of 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:31,36,
and Matthew 24:15, which hasn't occurred yet.
Yes the only time foo-lay does not mean tribe is when you decide. I already showed you in every one of those examples of yours, eth-nos was right next to it.Revelation 1:7, just like Revelation 5:9, 7:9, and
13:7, is referring to all kindreds (Greek: "phule"),
of the earth, no matter whether they're Jewish or
Gentile. The fact that the Greek word phule can also
be used to refer to Jewish kindreds (tribes) only,
such as in Matthew 19:28, in no way restricts the
meaning of that Greek word to Jewish kindreds (tribes)
only. Nothing requires that the Greek word "ethnos"
has to also occur in a statement for the Greek word
"phule" in a statement to be able to refer to all
kindreds, no matter whether they're Jewish or Gentile.
There is no Judea today. Ah yes, the futurist "literal" interpretation again. Except for time, people, places and things its literal. So then that means modern day Turkey fits perfectly with the churches of Asia. Don't mind they are now mosques.In Matthew 24:16, "Judaea" is literal, for there are
Christians in Judaea today, both Jewish and Gentile,
and some of their houses have rooftop patios or
gardens (Matthew 24:17).
Right the decoder ring. A joining isn't a joining. Churches in Judah, Samaria and Galilee where the different kingdoms of God.Revelation 20:7-9 doesn't turn Ezekiel chapters 38-39
into symbolism, but instead shows that they will be
literally fulfilled, but not until after the
millennium is over.
No one said it was.Stephen had a vision by which he was able to see into
heaven and see Jesus standing at the right hand of
God (Acts 7:56). This was not the second coming of
Jesus (Hebrews 9:28), for that won't happen until
after the coming tribulation of Revelation chapters
6-18 is over (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7-21).
Revelation chapters 6-22 are almost completely
literal, and the few parts that aren't are usually
explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 17:9-18). It's
only preterism which must employ a decoder ring, as
it were, to try in vain to make Revelation chapters
6-22 somehow match the events of 70 AD.
The 'decoder effect" is that there was a great judgment and curses promised to those of the old covenant who did not recieve the transformation of the New Covenant of Deut 30. That curse and plagues were promised at the end of Deut in chs 31 and 32. It was referring to the end of the age of the conditional land/nation covenant which was refered to by Matt 24:3,4 as the end of the age.
Regarding Revelation 6:8, nothing in its context
requires that "earth" doesn't mean the entire planet,
just as it does in Luke 21:25-28,33,35.
Revelation would have also had a mixed audience with many Jews reading it, especially as written in 64-65 AD. The Jews would have understood 'earth' as meaning their promised land or the extent of the Roman empire.
The destruction of Jerusalem by Rome in 70 AD didn't
end Rome's persecution of the church. Revelation 2:10,
3:10 could refer to the persecution under Domitian in
the 90's AD. Irenaeus says that John saw Revelation
near the end of Domitian's reign.
But First... From Steve Gregg's Revelation: Four ViewsIrenaeus' Quote (Used as Grounds for Late Revelation Date Theory)
"We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the Revelation. For ‘he’ [John?] or ‘it’ [Revelation?] was seen . . . towards the end of Domitian’s reign." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3)
"Several church fathers indicate that Domition was emperor when John wrote Revelation. All of them, however, seem to base their information on the testimony of Irenaeus" (Revelation, p.17)
"The meaning of Irenaeus' statement has been debated. What was seen toward the end of Domition's reign? Was it the vision which John "beheld"? or was it the apostle himself, who was "seen... face to face" by those who testify? The phrase "that was seen..." may be a corruption of an original that read, "He was seen..." If this is true, then it only proves that John lived into the reign of Domition, though he may have written the Apocalypse much earlier." (Revelation, p.17)
"Those who originally translated Irenaeus' work into English complained of the poor condition of the manuscript evidence for his work. They wrote: 'The great work of Irenaeus, now for the first time translated into English, is unfortunately no longer extant in the original. It has come down to us only in an ancient Latin version, with the exception of a greater portion of the first book, which has been preserved in the original Greek, through means of the copious quotations made by Hippolytus and Epiphanius. The text, in both Latin and Greek, is often most uncertain." (Revelation, p.17-18)
"Since the text is admittedly "uncertain" in many places, and the quotation in question is known only from a Latin translation of the original, we must not place too high a degree of certainty upon our preferred reading of the statement of Irenaeus." (Revelation, p.18)
"Earlier in the passage, Irenaeus refers to "all the.. ancient copies" of Revelation. This presupposes that that the book had been around a good long while before this statement was written. If there were "ancient copies," was not the original more ancient still? Yet, in Irenaeus estimation, the time of Domition's reign was not considered to have been very ancient history, for he speaks of it as "almost in our day." How could Irenaeus speak of ancient copies" of a work the original of which has been written "almost" in his own time?" (Revelation, p.18)
"With reference to his mention of Domition's reign, there are grounds for believing that Irenaeus was speaking of the time of John's last being seen by the brethren, rather than the time of John's having seen the apocalyptic vision." (Revelation, p.18)
Greetings. If I believed that, I would be a full-preterist as after the last bowl is poured out IT IS FINISHED in my humble view......Here is a whole chapter of 16 all fulfilled
You're right.
It's no wonder that Paul said they destroy the faith of some:
2 Timothy 2
16Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.
You might want to bring that up on the Unorthodox board where the JWs, Mormons and Messianics are since full preterism cannot be discussed on Orthodox Christian boards.....there are so many aspects of revelations that defy this weird(least its weird IMO) view that revelations has been fulfilled
how do you explain death being swallowed up in victory?(I'll leave it there cause honestly it would take me a long time to compile all the inconsistency's with this theory)
there are so many aspects of revelations that defy this weird(least its weird IMO) view that revelations has been fulfilled
how do you explain death being swallowed up in victory?(I'll leave it there cause honestly it would take me a long time to compile all the inconsistency's with this theory)
Greetings.But then you misunderstand what a full Preterist believes.
Preterists do believe that prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD, and that we are now in the kingdom, but why is that depressing? As Christians it gives us the freedom to evangelise and not have to worry about being raptured or left behind. We are free to improve the world and stop it being destroyed.
As for the above passage, Paul was writing before 70 AD and could not therefore, have been talking about Preterists.He was talking about the Gnostics, who are very different from Preterists.
You might want to bring that up on the Unorthodox board where the JWs, Mormons and Messianics are since full preterism cannot be discussed on Orthodox Christian boards.....
http://christianforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=130
Unorthodox Theology
Hi Abel,
My view is I have not been resurrected or judged yet so I don't think on a personal basis Revelation has been fulfilled.
Now as to the rest its actually pretty clear if people get a handle on the context which was Judea. Land/earth in Greek is a generic word that must be defined by context not the other way around.
In a thousand years what will Raeliens think about Caterpillar and their "earth moving equipment" ?
It has it's mind on "earthly" thingsOriginally Posted by gwynedd1Hi Abel,
My view is I have not been resurrected or judged yet so I don't think on a personal basis Revelation has been fulfilled.
Now as to the rest its actually pretty clear if people get a handle on the context which was Judea. Land/earth in Greek is a generic word that must be defined by context not the other way around.
In a thousand years what will Raeliens think about Caterpillar and their "earth moving equipment" ?
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