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No covenanters allowed: A Question for Dispensationalists
- Thread starter skullkrusher
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The dispensations are not always defined by time periods, though they often are. A dispensation is God testing men under a particular principle in a historical setting. When God changes the operative principle of his divine dealing, then one dispensation gives way to the next. God deals with the nations from Noah to Acts 10 under the dispensation of human government and that dispensation did not end when God called a particular man, Abraham, through whose family he promised to raise a single nation by whom he would provide the Saviour and would bless the whole world. The dispensation of the promise to Abraham was to him and his family but it did not bring the dispensation of human government to an end. That dispensation continued all through Israel's history and will continue throughout the rest of "time". Later, because of the stubbornness and sinfulness of Israel, God added a temporary teaching element, the Law of Moses, and this would change God’s principle of dealing with Israel from ‘promise” to "law" and they would be governed by that principle for about 1500 years. This would be a temporary addendum to the Abrahamic covenant of promise and would in no way abrogate any of its stipulations to Israel or to the world. This is the major point of Galatians chapter 3. When the covenant of law fulfilled its purpose, then it was done away as the operative principle of God’s divine dealing with Israel and the former principle of promise was then re-established as long as God dealt with them as his people. This would end in AD 70 when God took away their national identity and drove them out of the land, as per the Land Covenant in De 28-30, dispersing them into the nations of the world where they would have the same opportunities under the new covenant and the principle of grace as the rest of the world.
The Mosaic covenant was an agreement entered into by both parties, God and Israel, See Ex 19:1-8, and so the covenant began at the same time as the dispensation and lasted until it accomplished it's purpose. See Ga 3. When it was time for God to change his operative principle, because of necessity, he once again sent his man before his people, Israel, to offer them the new covenant that he had promised already in the prophets, whereby he would write his laws down on their hearts instead of on stone like he had at Sinai. When they refused it, see Acts 7, God would turn to the gentile nations with his offer of salvation as a free gift. Because he had never entered into covenant with any of those nations whereby he had promised to save them and make them his people, his marvelous principle of grace was then fully manifest and became the principle through which he would deal with the nations for the next 2000 years and through which he is still dealing with us today.
God named this dispensation himself. It would be called the dispensation of the grace of God, see Eph 3:2, and it would actually have its beginning for the nations with the saving of Cornelius in Acts 10 and for Israel in AD 70 when they were driven out of their land. While it is true that some of God’s principles of dealing with humanity can overlap, and does, it is equally true that some of them cannot exist at the same time. Law and grace is an example of two principles that cannot co-exist. This became a major stumbling block for national Israel and was the reason for her eventual dispersion.
While the dispensations sometimes overlap and deal with principles rather than time, the ages of God are distinct time frames. Sometimes the dispensations are defined within and by an age. We have examples of that in Hebrews and we can determine it by a comparison of verses.
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (Aeons = ages= time frames)[/font]
It is clear that God desires to call our attention to time frames here because he has now mentioned them 4 times in the first two verses of Hebrews. He says he has spoken through his son at the end of one of those ages he has created.
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world (Kosmos): but now once in the end of the world (Aeon) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
There might be an argument about the beginning of the age but there can be not doubt from these words that the cross of Christ was the end of it. Since it was to Israel only that Jesus Christ appeared and spake, it can be logically deduced that the age of law is what is brought to an end.
Understanding Israel as being always a distinct entity from the nations in the mind of God and that all God’s prophecies must be fulfilled through her will help us understand the dispensations of God as he deals with his creation and brings it about to full salvation.
The next, and last operative principle of God’s divine dealing in time is “righteousness” and his eternal principle is “love”. See 1 Cor 13. It would be a great mistake to assume that because God is governed by a single “operative” principle in a given dispensation, that he does not also express himself thorough all the other principles as well. For, instance, God sent his son under the Law, see Ga 4:4 but it was because of his love, see Jn 3:16.
The Mosaic covenant was an agreement entered into by both parties, God and Israel, See Ex 19:1-8, and so the covenant began at the same time as the dispensation and lasted until it accomplished it's purpose. See Ga 3. When it was time for God to change his operative principle, because of necessity, he once again sent his man before his people, Israel, to offer them the new covenant that he had promised already in the prophets, whereby he would write his laws down on their hearts instead of on stone like he had at Sinai. When they refused it, see Acts 7, God would turn to the gentile nations with his offer of salvation as a free gift. Because he had never entered into covenant with any of those nations whereby he had promised to save them and make them his people, his marvelous principle of grace was then fully manifest and became the principle through which he would deal with the nations for the next 2000 years and through which he is still dealing with us today.
God named this dispensation himself. It would be called the dispensation of the grace of God, see Eph 3:2, and it would actually have its beginning for the nations with the saving of Cornelius in Acts 10 and for Israel in AD 70 when they were driven out of their land. While it is true that some of God’s principles of dealing with humanity can overlap, and does, it is equally true that some of them cannot exist at the same time. Law and grace is an example of two principles that cannot co-exist. This became a major stumbling block for national Israel and was the reason for her eventual dispersion.
While the dispensations sometimes overlap and deal with principles rather than time, the ages of God are distinct time frames. Sometimes the dispensations are defined within and by an age. We have examples of that in Hebrews and we can determine it by a comparison of verses.
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (Aeons = ages= time frames)[/font]
It is clear that God desires to call our attention to time frames here because he has now mentioned them 4 times in the first two verses of Hebrews. He says he has spoken through his son at the end of one of those ages he has created.
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world (Kosmos): but now once in the end of the world (Aeon) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
There might be an argument about the beginning of the age but there can be not doubt from these words that the cross of Christ was the end of it. Since it was to Israel only that Jesus Christ appeared and spake, it can be logically deduced that the age of law is what is brought to an end.
Understanding Israel as being always a distinct entity from the nations in the mind of God and that all God’s prophecies must be fulfilled through her will help us understand the dispensations of God as he deals with his creation and brings it about to full salvation.
The next, and last operative principle of God’s divine dealing in time is “righteousness” and his eternal principle is “love”. See 1 Cor 13. It would be a great mistake to assume that because God is governed by a single “operative” principle in a given dispensation, that he does not also express himself thorough all the other principles as well. For, instance, God sent his son under the Law, see Ga 4:4 but it was because of his love, see Jn 3:16.
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Hi JDS:
Since you did not bother to “quote >>” from the Opening Post, or anyone writing on this Topic, then JDS is ‘grandstanding’ on his soapbox once again and offering up his unsupported opinions about ‘dispensations.’
We disagree. Dispensations are ‘modes of dealing’ having nothing to do with ‘time periods’ or ‘epoch periods’ or ‘ages’ or any length of time. Those of you associating ‘time periods’ with ‘dispensations’ are guilty of a manmade ‘erroneous use of the word’ (Vine’s on ‘oikonomia #3622)
There is nothing in Vine's definition about ‘testing’ or ‘particular principles’ (Lord-Have-Mercy) or ‘historical settings,’ but somebody is out here in the Dispy Forum is perhaps presenting some common and erroneous Dispy MYTHS. 2Tim. 4:3-4.
No. God establishes many different ‘dispensations’ among many different administrations/households whereby God’s “Mode of Dealing” is simply DIFFERENT from the ground rules established earlier for the members of a completely different dispensation.
Noah to Acts 10? There are exactly four primary ‘dispensations’ in Scripture and that includes “Gentiles” who have been without the Law (Rom. 2:14-15) from the beginning. Israel of the flesh (Rom. 9:1-5) comes along when taken from the side of Abraham through Isaac (child of promise = blood witness) and Jacob/Israel (child of the flesh = water witness) in the same way that Eve (water witness) was taken out of the side of Adam to become his ‘helper’ (Gen. 2:18-22). Israel shall become the 'helper,' when the 'Tabernacle of David' (pic) is restored (Acts 15:16-18) in the upcoming 1000 Year Day of the Lord (my thread). The three primary dispensations of Scripture are laid out in the three witnesses of spirit (OT), blood (Pauline Epistles) and water (Kingdom Epistles) like this:
God is dealing with Israel of the flesh through the “Prophets and the Law” that prophesied until John (Matt. 11:13), as the Lord God’s Chosen Race (1Peter 2:9) was taken from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. God sent John the Baptist (Elijah/David/Adam) to begin offering the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (water witness = in blue) to Israel of the flesh ONLY (Matt. 15:24, 10:7), but the Kingdom Dispensation (Bride of Christ = John 3:29 = Church #1*) was placed on hold; because of Israel’s “transgression” (Rom. 11:11) having not recognized John the Baptist or Christ (Matt. 17:12) as the Earthly ‘and’ Heavenly Messiah (pic) respectively. Therefore, a “Dispensational Shift” (diagram) took place where our Mystery “Body of Christ” (in red = Church #2) is gathered ‘first’ (Acts 15:14), until Elijah returns as the “prophet” of Acts 3:22-23 preaching the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Matt. 24:14) and the ‘Bride of Christ’ can then be gathered like this:
Once again you see John the Baptist appearing as “Elijah” (Matt. 11:14) where the “Gospel of the Kingdom” is offered three times by the Father (John the Baptist = Luke 1:76-78) and the Son (Jesus Christ = blood witness in red) and the Twelve beginning at Pentecost (Acts 2). The beginning of the END for Peter’s Kingdom “Bride” (Church #1 = 'cut off' = Rev. 20:4) takes place with ‘Steven’ (name = Crown) in Acts 6-7 where we see the first mention of the young man ‘Saul’ also known as “Paul” (Acts 13:9). God stops gathering the Prophetic Kingdom Bride with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD, while the “Dispensation of God’s Grace” (Eph. 3:2) shall continue until we are ‘raptured’ (1Thes. 4:16-17) to ‘start’ the upcoming 1000 Year Day of the Lord (in blue = my thread again). However, the “Dispensation of Mosaic Law” (in yellow) continues for Israel of the flesh, until heaven and earth pass away (Matt. 5:17-19), which happens in Revelation 20:11-15 with the Judgment. The ‘Dispensation of God’s Grace’ is actually NOT of this world and not even of this realm (like Christ’s Heavenly Kingdom = John 18:36), but we are ‘new creatures’ (2Cor. 5:16-17) part of a totally ‘New Creation’ (Gal. 6:15) “far above ALL THE HEAVENS” (Eph. 4:10) that you can see over in Figure 2 of this diagram.
Look over into Figure 2 and in the very ‘center of the throne’ (Rev. 7:17) to find my white arrow and the sign saying “Dispensation of God’s Grace” which only exists truly “IN THE BELOVED.”
That throws a monkey wrench into the ‘time period’ aspect of your definition for a ‘dispensation,’ which is actually a ‘mode of dealing’ having nothing to do with ‘time’ at all.
[Continued]
Since you did not bother to “quote >>” from the Opening Post, or anyone writing on this Topic, then JDS is ‘grandstanding’ on his soapbox once again and offering up his unsupported opinions about ‘dispensations.’
We disagree. Dispensations are ‘modes of dealing’ having nothing to do with ‘time periods’ or ‘epoch periods’ or ‘ages’ or any length of time. Those of you associating ‘time periods’ with ‘dispensations’ are guilty of a manmade ‘erroneous use of the word’ (Vine’s on ‘oikonomia #3622)
I restate the same ‘facts’ about ‘dispensations’ to professing Dispy’s all the time and they continue making the same mistakes time and time again to beat the band. :0)
There is nothing in Vine's definition about ‘testing’ or ‘particular principles’ (Lord-Have-Mercy) or ‘historical settings,’ but somebody is out here in the Dispy Forum is perhaps presenting some common and erroneous Dispy MYTHS. 2Tim. 4:3-4.
No. God establishes many different ‘dispensations’ among many different administrations/households whereby God’s “Mode of Dealing” is simply DIFFERENT from the ground rules established earlier for the members of a completely different dispensation.
Noah to Acts 10? There are exactly four primary ‘dispensations’ in Scripture and that includes “Gentiles” who have been without the Law (Rom. 2:14-15) from the beginning. Israel of the flesh (Rom. 9:1-5) comes along when taken from the side of Abraham through Isaac (child of promise = blood witness) and Jacob/Israel (child of the flesh = water witness) in the same way that Eve (water witness) was taken out of the side of Adam to become his ‘helper’ (Gen. 2:18-22). Israel shall become the 'helper,' when the 'Tabernacle of David' (pic) is restored (Acts 15:16-18) in the upcoming 1000 Year Day of the Lord (my thread). The three primary dispensations of Scripture are laid out in the three witnesses of spirit (OT), blood (Pauline Epistles) and water (Kingdom Epistles) like this:
God is dealing with Israel of the flesh through the “Prophets and the Law” that prophesied until John (Matt. 11:13), as the Lord God’s Chosen Race (1Peter 2:9) was taken from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. God sent John the Baptist (Elijah/David/Adam) to begin offering the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (water witness = in blue) to Israel of the flesh ONLY (Matt. 15:24, 10:7), but the Kingdom Dispensation (Bride of Christ = John 3:29 = Church #1*) was placed on hold; because of Israel’s “transgression” (Rom. 11:11) having not recognized John the Baptist or Christ (Matt. 17:12) as the Earthly ‘and’ Heavenly Messiah (pic) respectively. Therefore, a “Dispensational Shift” (diagram) took place where our Mystery “Body of Christ” (in red = Church #2) is gathered ‘first’ (Acts 15:14), until Elijah returns as the “prophet” of Acts 3:22-23 preaching the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Matt. 24:14) and the ‘Bride of Christ’ can then be gathered like this:
Once again you see John the Baptist appearing as “Elijah” (Matt. 11:14) where the “Gospel of the Kingdom” is offered three times by the Father (John the Baptist = Luke 1:76-78) and the Son (Jesus Christ = blood witness in red) and the Twelve beginning at Pentecost (Acts 2). The beginning of the END for Peter’s Kingdom “Bride” (Church #1 = 'cut off' = Rev. 20:4) takes place with ‘Steven’ (name = Crown) in Acts 6-7 where we see the first mention of the young man ‘Saul’ also known as “Paul” (Acts 13:9). God stops gathering the Prophetic Kingdom Bride with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD, while the “Dispensation of God’s Grace” (Eph. 3:2) shall continue until we are ‘raptured’ (1Thes. 4:16-17) to ‘start’ the upcoming 1000 Year Day of the Lord (in blue = my thread again). However, the “Dispensation of Mosaic Law” (in yellow) continues for Israel of the flesh, until heaven and earth pass away (Matt. 5:17-19), which happens in Revelation 20:11-15 with the Judgment. The ‘Dispensation of God’s Grace’ is actually NOT of this world and not even of this realm (like Christ’s Heavenly Kingdom = John 18:36), but we are ‘new creatures’ (2Cor. 5:16-17) part of a totally ‘New Creation’ (Gal. 6:15) “far above ALL THE HEAVENS” (Eph. 4:10) that you can see over in Figure 2 of this diagram.
Look over into Figure 2 and in the very ‘center of the throne’ (Rev. 7:17) to find my white arrow and the sign saying “Dispensation of God’s Grace” which only exists truly “IN THE BELOVED.”
To think that the real “Dispensation of God’s Grace” is OF THIS WORLD would render portions of God’s Living Word A LIE (Ecc. 1:9-11), because there is indeed “NOTHING new under the sun.” The difference is that ‘our’ mystery “Dispensation of God’s Grace” is actually NOT of this world at all, but God is simply ‘dealing’ with us ‘as sons’ who ARE “IN THE BELOVED,” or seated IN the heavenly places at are IN Christ Jesus. Eph. 2:6. I use the golden yellow (OT) and red (Pauline Epistles) and blue (Kingdom Epistles) labels to teach the differences between these three primary dispensations (Israel, Mystery Body, Kingdom Bride), because this is the precise pattern that God has laid out in Scripture itself right along with the ‘Two Veils’ that are present in ALL of His three witness mystery sets (pic and pic). The fact is that we are currently living through a 2000 Year Mystery Time that NONE of the OT Prophets were given to see (follow arrow from OT Prophet) ‘and’ this Mystery Time ‘contains’ the “Dispensation of God’s Grace” through which God has dispensed “Grace Doctrine” through the Apostle Paul in the Thirteen Epistles to the Gentiles that bear his name.
That throws a monkey wrench into the ‘time period’ aspect of your definition for a ‘dispensation,’ which is actually a ‘mode of dealing’ having nothing to do with ‘time’ at all.
[Continued]
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No. The Lord God has been dealing with Israel through Mosaic Law since the days of Moses ‘and’ He shall continue dealing with Israel through Mosaic Law until heaven and earth pass away! Matt. 5:17-19. The fact that the Lord God made a covenant with Abraham is one reason that His “gifts and calling are irrevocable” (Rom. 11:29), as Israel is “beloved for the sake of the fathers.” Rom. 11:28. However, the fact that the Lord God (Christ) made His covenant with Abraham changes NOTHING about Israel remaining under Mosaic Law, until released at the Judgment of Rev. 20:11-15 at the END of the Age.
God is eventually going to be “all in all.” 1Cor. 15:28 = diagram. Right? Okay then. So ‘all’ of these Dispensations and God’s ‘modes of dealing’ will eventually come to AN END, which makes them all temporary in respect to ‘time.’ The reason your statement above is perhaps a bit shortsighted is because Mosaic Law was given to Israel of the flesh some 400 years AFTER Abraham, so any promises made to Abraham had no opportunity to abrogate any stipulations of Mosaic Law upon Israel at all.
The Covenant of the Law for Israel of the flesh has in NO WAY even begun to fulfill its purpose. The fact that someone hears (Rom. 10:17) and believes (Eph. 1:13-14) our gospel (#2 here) changes NOTHING for the Nation of Israel remaining very much UNDER MOSAIC LAW!!! Jesus Christ is the END of the Law for Righteousness to???
The Gospel (#2) is the power of God to everyone? No.
Simply read the first three verses from Romans 10 (here) to realize that Israel ‘stumbled over Christ’ (Rom. 9:30-32) and that they have a “zeal for God, but NOT in accordance to with knowledge. For NOT knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish THEIR OWN, they DID NOT subject themselves to the ‘righteousness of God.” Romans 10:1-3. JDS has no license to simply END the Lord God’s “Dispensation of Mosaic Law” for Israel of the flesh (Rom. 10:1-5), because somebody happens to believe our Gospel and he thinks dropping the precepts teaching Mosaic Law seems like a great idea. When Paul says, “Now that faith has come” (Gal. 3:25), then he is talking the ‘faith’ that comes by ‘hearing’ (obeying = Rom. 10:17) our gospel and ONLY the believers in our gospel are released from the tutor of Mosaic Law. Period!
Israel remains under Mosaic Law until heaven and earth pass away (Matt. 5:17-19) no matter what anyone says or does. Israel should have rebuilt the Tabernacle of Moses (Fig 2) in the day that the Temple was destroyed, as if the combined resources of God’s Chosen Race cannot even afford to pitch a cotton-picking TENT to keep the commandments of the Lord God. The “New Covenant” will be made between the Lord God (Christ) and the Houses of Israel and Judah (Heb. 8:8-12), which is still very much FUTURE ‘and’ Israel of the flesh will continue under Mosaic Law from that time to the END of the Age. Period. That is the very reason that James teaches the keeping of the WHOLE LAW (James 2:10) to those obeying the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Gospel #1), which represents the Lord God’s will for Israel and everyone part of the coming 1000 Year Messianic Kingdom of God on earth ‘as it is’ in heaven.
We disagree. Paul is teaching ‘Grace Doctrine’ to the BELIEVERS in OUR GOSPEL (Gospel to the Uncircumcised = Gal. 2:7) having NOTHING to do with Israel of the flesh at all. JDS is trying to dispense “Grace Doctrine” from the steward over the “Dispensation of God’s Grace” (Paul) to EVERYBODY, as if ‘faith has come’ (Gal. 3:25) to UNBELIEVERS. :0)
Since JDS does NOT know the differences between the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (#1 here) and Paul’s “Word of the Cross” gospel message (#2), then he has no clue as to what he is even talking about.
No. God is dealing with those of us “IN THE BELOVED” through His Grace, as He shall continue doing throughout “all the ages to come” (Eph. 2:7). None of that translates to THE WORLD or TO JEWS in general, because they remain very much outside the Beloved . . .
I cannot imagine your statements becoming any more ridiculous than these statements right here. Peter is preaching the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (#1) to Cornelius in the years ‘before’ he even found out about “the gospel I preach among the Gentiles” Gal. 2:2) over in Acts 15! JDS has Peter preaching Paul’s “Gospel to the Uncircumcised” (Gal. 2:7) to Cornelius, BEFORE he finds out about that from Paul at the famous meeting in Jerusalem some five chapters later! :0) The Dispensation of God’s Grace was given to PAUL "for you" (Eph. 3:1-3) and Peter had no way of preaching the ‘wisdom given him’ (Paul) to Cornelius or anybody else in Acts 10, when Peter is calling ‘these things’ very much “hard to understand” at the END of his ministry (2Peter 3:14-16).
If JDS believed his own words, then he would not be trying to give Israel of the flesh “God’s grace,” when they are still very much UNDER MOSAIC LAW until heaven and earth pass away! Matt. 5:17-19. Christ Himself is the Stumbling Block for Israel (Rom. 9:30-32) . . .
Next time simply ‘quote >>’ Vine’s Dictionary and to realize that ‘dispensations’ are ‘modes of dealing’ having nothing to do with ‘time’ at all. We ‘can’ place time parameters around particular covenants, households and administrations that come to exist in Scripture, but that marks the moment that we leave the ‘dispensations’ arena and enter something else . . .
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
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Terral,
With all due respect, your stuff is hazy and confusing and most of the time senseless. Forgive me for being this blunt. It is almost always in error and it misrepresents scriptures in several ways.
You make the ridiculous claim that the Mosaic Law is still in effect for Israel and don't seem to realize that the major problem for all the apostles was to convince them that law had been ended by Jesus Christ who met all of its demands and fulfilled it. The moral law, the ten commandments were said 5 times in 2 Cor 3 to be abolished, done away, and something far better was offered in its place. The law of liberty. The ordinaces and typical observances were certainly done away with and you may read about them in passages like Col 2:13-23, and the civil law was not needed when Israel ceased to have a national identity in AD 70. The law is a trinity and is designed to exist as a whole. If one part ceases to be operative for governance, then all of it must. This is what happened to the Mosaic law. God will one day outline the new covenant for Israel.
He 8:6 ¶ But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
God is at this time saving all who will come to him through faith in Christ and he is forming the church, the body of Christ, the family of God.
God has not established his new covenant with Israel nationally because they refused it and he will not establish it until they accept it. This will come later. The spiritual blessings of the new covenant have been extended to everyone who will receive them in the name of Jesus Christ. Those blessings are the forgiveness of sins, the indwelling Spirit of God, and the authority to be the children of God.
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Hi JDS:
In other words, JDS has no reply to anything in Post #63 and Post #64, but he is willing to continue the MYTH charade. :0)
Lets see . . . How do we explain things to someone in such denial? The bottom line is that if you will not believe Jesus Christ saying For TRULY I say to you . . ., then you obviously not believe a bible thumper like me:
The Ten Commandments are just ten precepts teaching Mosaic Law to Israel of the flesh (Rom. 9:1-4) having NOTHING to do with our mystery Body of Christ (Church #2) addressed throughout the Pauline Epistles. Israel stumbled over Christ (Rom. 9:30-32) and committed the transgression (Rom. 11:11*), as they continue to struggle under the spirit of stupor (Rom. 11:8*) down to this very day! Nobody has authority to pass along the benefits of Grace Doctrine for the members of Christs Body (Church #2) to just anyone you wish. For any Jew or Gentile to benefit from ANYTHING given to our mystery church, then they MUST be believers in OUR GOSPEL and that does NOT include Israel of the flesh by any stretch of the imagination!
No. You are treating dispensational truth for the believers in our gospel like that is eternal truth for EVERYBODY, which is nothing short of JDS being ridiculous! You are trying to break Mosaic Law up into segments of moral and civil law (nonsense), when Israel of the flesh is bound under every part of Mosaic Law until heaven and earth pass away. Period! Nothing that Paul writes to the Ephesians or Colossians as the members of the Body of Christ (Eph. 4:12) and His Body Church (Col. 1:24) has ANYTHING to do with Israel of the flesh, as if Israel automatically became believes in OUR GOSPEL (#2).
In other words, JDS is deluded into believing that restating the same MYTH over and over again actually means something. :0) Mosaic Law DOES EXIST as a whole and Israel shall continue living under Mosaic Law until heaven and earth pass away! Paul writes,
You can cite the entire Book of Hebrews, but that changes NOTHING about Israel of the flesh and our mystery Body of Christ being two completely separate dispensations living under two totally separate sets of HOUSE RULES. Every Jew that hears (Rom. 10:17) and believes (Eph. 1:13-14) our gospel is baptized into Christ (Gal. 3:27) to become a new creature (2Cor. 5:16-17) part of that New Creation (Gal. 6:15), as there is no such thing as a Jew or Greek (Gentile) IN Christ Jesus (Gal. 3:28). However, the fact that believing Jews become members of Christs Body (Church #2) changes NOTHING about Israel of the flesh remaining very much under Mosaic Law. Elijah is about to appear to Israel as the purifier of Malachi 3, but he will have a rod in his hand and will beat Israel royally for refusing to rebuild the Tabernacle of Moses in order to OBEY the Lords Commandments given through Moses. Abraham told the rich man the truth of how things will shake out at the Judgment for everyone under Mosaic Law, when he asked that someone be sent to warn his brothers:
Again, the fact that some among Israel of the flesh actually believe OUR GOSPEL has NOTHING to do with Israel as a nation! You fail to realize that From the standpoint of the gospel THEY ARE ENEMIES for your sake . . . (Rom. 11:28), which means JDS has no right or authority to treat Israel of the flesh AS BELIEVERS in our gospel.
So what? The Lord God will effect a New Covenant with the Houses of Israel and Judah (Heb. 8:8-12) at some future time (Eze. 34:25), which also has nothing to do with the believers in our gospel one way or the other. I do believe you are heralding the precepts of Replacement Theology (Wiki) in the Dispy Forum without one clue as to what JDS is even talking about. The Lord God promised to make Israel JEALOUS (Deut. 32:21, Rom. 10:19), but you are trying to give Israel the same benefits as the believers in our Gospel for some strange reason . . .
So what? Israel shall continue living under Mosaic Law until heaven and earth pass away! Matt. 5:17-19.
Where did you get that nonsense? The New Covenant remains IN THE FUTURE and Israel of the flesh remains under Mosaic Law today and in that future until heaven and earth pass away.
Those blessings are FUTURE and have NOTHING to do with Israel of the flesh in the world today remaining very much under Mosaic Law, even if the entire nation remains blind (Rom. 11:25) under the influence of the spirit OF STUPOR (Rom. 11:8). You are trying to transfer benefits intended for BELIEVERS over to UNBELIEVERS without blinking a single eyelash, when in truth Israel of the flesh and our mystery His Body Church represent two completely separate dispensations. I am,
In Christ Jesus (Church #2),
Terral
In other words, JDS has no reply to anything in Post #63 and Post #64, but he is willing to continue the MYTH charade. :0)
Lets see . . . How do we explain things to someone in such denial? The bottom line is that if you will not believe Jesus Christ saying For TRULY I say to you . . ., then you obviously not believe a bible thumper like me:
Just what part of Until heaven and earth pass away [Rev. 20:11-15) are you having trouble understanding? Take a good long look outside and tell everyone if we are looking at the same earth that Jesus Christ is describing in Matthew 5 above, or are we living in the New Heaven and New Earth of Revelation 21:1+? No. Israel shall continue under Mosaic Law until heaven and earth passes away! Period! If JDS cannot understand that simple truth, then that is your problem . . .
The Ten Commandments are just ten precepts teaching Mosaic Law to Israel of the flesh (Rom. 9:1-4) having NOTHING to do with our mystery Body of Christ (Church #2) addressed throughout the Pauline Epistles. Israel stumbled over Christ (Rom. 9:30-32) and committed the transgression (Rom. 11:11*), as they continue to struggle under the spirit of stupor (Rom. 11:8*) down to this very day! Nobody has authority to pass along the benefits of Grace Doctrine for the members of Christs Body (Church #2) to just anyone you wish. For any Jew or Gentile to benefit from ANYTHING given to our mystery church, then they MUST be believers in OUR GOSPEL and that does NOT include Israel of the flesh by any stretch of the imagination!
No. You are treating dispensational truth for the believers in our gospel like that is eternal truth for EVERYBODY, which is nothing short of JDS being ridiculous! You are trying to break Mosaic Law up into segments of moral and civil law (nonsense), when Israel of the flesh is bound under every part of Mosaic Law until heaven and earth pass away. Period! Nothing that Paul writes to the Ephesians or Colossians as the members of the Body of Christ (Eph. 4:12) and His Body Church (Col. 1:24) has ANYTHING to do with Israel of the flesh, as if Israel automatically became believes in OUR GOSPEL (#2).
In other words, JDS is deluded into believing that restating the same MYTH over and over again actually means something. :0) Mosaic Law DOES EXIST as a whole and Israel shall continue living under Mosaic Law until heaven and earth pass away! Paul writes,
Israel of the flesh who has sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law, because they have NOTHING to do with the believers in OUR GOSPEL. JDS is not authorized to hand out believer benefits to the entire nation of UNBELIEVERS, as if something like that even makes one lick of sense! The basic concept of dispensations (Vine's) encompasses the notion of DIFFERENT ADMINISTRATIONS/HOUSEHOLDS and these DIFFERENT ADMINISTRATIONS live under very different sets of rules.
You can cite the entire Book of Hebrews, but that changes NOTHING about Israel of the flesh and our mystery Body of Christ being two completely separate dispensations living under two totally separate sets of HOUSE RULES. Every Jew that hears (Rom. 10:17) and believes (Eph. 1:13-14) our gospel is baptized into Christ (Gal. 3:27) to become a new creature (2Cor. 5:16-17) part of that New Creation (Gal. 6:15), as there is no such thing as a Jew or Greek (Gentile) IN Christ Jesus (Gal. 3:28). However, the fact that believing Jews become members of Christs Body (Church #2) changes NOTHING about Israel of the flesh remaining very much under Mosaic Law. Elijah is about to appear to Israel as the purifier of Malachi 3, but he will have a rod in his hand and will beat Israel royally for refusing to rebuild the Tabernacle of Moses in order to OBEY the Lords Commandments given through Moses. Abraham told the rich man the truth of how things will shake out at the Judgment for everyone under Mosaic Law, when he asked that someone be sent to warn his brothers:
Someone please explain what has changed for Israel of the flesh since Christ and Abraham gave this account of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16? The answer is that Israel FAILED to recognize John the Baptist and our Lord Jesus Christ (Matt. 17:12), so the Jews demanded Christs crucifixion (Matt. 27:22-23) part of the nations ultimate transgression (Rom. 11:11). And JDS thinks that Israel of the flesh should benefit from their stumbling over Christ (Rom. 9:30-32) and their transgression like the believers in OUR GOSPEL! Again, James teaches that even the believers in the Gospel of the Kingdom (Gospel #1) must keep the whole Law or become guilty of ALL. James 2:10.
Again, the fact that some among Israel of the flesh actually believe OUR GOSPEL has NOTHING to do with Israel as a nation! You fail to realize that From the standpoint of the gospel THEY ARE ENEMIES for your sake . . . (Rom. 11:28), which means JDS has no right or authority to treat Israel of the flesh AS BELIEVERS in our gospel.
So what? The Lord God will effect a New Covenant with the Houses of Israel and Judah (Heb. 8:8-12) at some future time (Eze. 34:25), which also has nothing to do with the believers in our gospel one way or the other. I do believe you are heralding the precepts of Replacement Theology (Wiki) in the Dispy Forum without one clue as to what JDS is even talking about. The Lord God promised to make Israel JEALOUS (Deut. 32:21, Rom. 10:19), but you are trying to give Israel the same benefits as the believers in our Gospel for some strange reason . . .
So what? Israel shall continue living under Mosaic Law until heaven and earth pass away! Matt. 5:17-19.
Where did you get that nonsense? The New Covenant remains IN THE FUTURE and Israel of the flesh remains under Mosaic Law today and in that future until heaven and earth pass away.
Those blessings are FUTURE and have NOTHING to do with Israel of the flesh in the world today remaining very much under Mosaic Law, even if the entire nation remains blind (Rom. 11:25) under the influence of the spirit OF STUPOR (Rom. 11:8). You are trying to transfer benefits intended for BELIEVERS over to UNBELIEVERS without blinking a single eyelash, when in truth Israel of the flesh and our mystery His Body Church represent two completely separate dispensations. I am,
In Christ Jesus (Church #2),
Terral
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These texts demonstrate that different dietary regulations have been revealed at different times. What is not proven by these texts is that your definition of dispensation is correct and Biblically defensible.
The statement I made stands, so far unchallenged -- you have not shown any Scripture that demonstrates a dispensation to be 'a period of testing for man', which is what I have requested. This aspect of the definition is significant in many forms of dispensationalism (if not central to all), so I would like to see it defended as a necessary interpretation, not simply a possible interpretation. If it cannot be defended from Scripture as a necessary consequence, then the rhetoric needs to be ratcheted down and the point conceded that, while dispensational distinctives are one way of interpreting Scripture, some primary hermeneutical principles are at least questionable.
The ultimate point at issue is not whether there have been distinct 'dispensations' in which different directives have applied; it is, What is a Biblical difinition of 'dispensation'?; then, How does that relate to or inform our undersatanding of the whole of Scripture?
The Council of Jeruslaem addressed this (Acts 15); as do Acts 10 (Peter's vision & his ministery to Cornelius) and I Cor. 8: 4-13 (food sacrificed to idols), particlaurly vs. 8 -- "But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do", and 13 -- "... if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again..." It is also clear from Galatians 2: 11-13 that the dietary restrictions of the OT have been done away with, for both Jew and Gentile; this point of liberty from the law begins with the issue of diet, is expanded throughout chapters 3 & 4, climaxing in chapter 5 with Paul's assertion that "it is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery" under the law; this basic theme of the abolition of the law also being treated in Ephesians 2: 11-22, perhaps most significantly in vs. 14 - 15, where Paul declares "For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in Himslef one new man out of the two...."
While the force of the aorist participial forms of destroy and abolish in the GNTcannot be said to be as strong as if they had been in the perfect tense, the nature of the words themselves weighs strongly for an interpretation as consummative aorists, which is syntactically very similar to the perfect tense -- the destoying and abolishing are complete -- dispensationalism systematically asserts a return (in some fashion) to those same dividing elements which have been done away with in Christ. Just as there is no adequate Scrpitural defense of your definition of dispensation, there is no adequate defense of the assertion that the dividing wall of partition will be re-established -- such an idea (IMO) runs contrary to plain assertions of Paul.
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The question for you is; Is it even posssible to convince you? It is a waste of everyones time if it isn't.
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Well... since I don't believe 'dispensation' is definable as dispensationalists use it if we keep within the bounds of Scripture, I have to say it's not likely that I will be convinced. That said, I'm certainly open to the issue, and am willing to discuss any given text or group of texts that use dispensation in such a fashion; so,at least in theory, yes, it is possible that I might be convinced. I just doubt the liklihood of anyone being able to adequately answer this relatively simple question. I realize that probably sounds arrogant -- that isn't my intent, so if it does, please understand that I am only trying to be very clear and to-the-point.
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You stress this because you know there is no scripture that states this in the way you request. But that is begging the question.
A more significant question would be, "can you demonstrate from scripture that there were a series of tests applied to mankind?" The answer to that would be a resounding "yes."
Gos indeed put mankind in a perfect garden in innocence, giving him only one command, which he broke. And God cast them out of the garden.
God indeed then left man up to his conscience, and soon every imagination of the thought of their heart was only evil continually. And od destroyed them with a flood.
God indeed then set up human government, which they used to unite in rebellion against him, trying to build a tower to reach unto heaven. And God confused their tongues.
God indeed then called out one man and gave him a promise, but his descendants forgot the promise. God allowed them to be reduced to slavery.
God indeed then gave one nation a perfect law, but no man ever kept it. After they rejected their Messiah, God destroyed them.
God indeed then offered salvation to all by grace through faith, but we have not obeyed his instructions. he has warned us that this will end in the coming of an Antichrist.
And God has indeed promised a coming thousand year reign of righteousness. And he has told us that this will again end in rebellion, upon which he will destroy the earth.
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Hi Brother In Christ, Skull and Lamorak:
Skull started this ‘Query Topic’ (see Opening Post) where he is seeking answers from professing Dispy’s in this CF.com Dispy Forum. Answering his questions with other ‘off topic’ food rules questions is throwing effort after foolishness. I answered your ‘food rules’ questions in Post #58 and again in Post #60 where your ‘off topic’ John 13:34-35 “as a servant” suggestion was answered and we received this reply:
Of course! My point of view is what appears in all of my posts on these Dispy Topics, but all I see in your posts is more one-liner drivel as usual. Skull’s OP questions were answered in Post #2 and Post #3 and Post #5 BTW . . . I am a bit surprised to see that Skull offered you more than a one-sentence reply:
Brother In Christ’s definition of ‘dispensation’? Everyone here must use the same Greek Dictionaries where the term “oikonomia” (#3622) will continue to mean “A MODE OF DEALING” to the end of time! The ‘untaught and unstable’ (2Peter 3:14-16) adding ‘time frames’ to “oikonomia” are blindly using the common ‘erroneous use of the word,’ which professing Christians have been doing for just about 2000 years. The sad fact is that professing Dispy’s simply define these terms anyway they wish in order to justify ‘their bogus interpretations’ like we are both seeing up and down this thread. The reason we have so much disagreement and confusion among professing Dispy’s on the ‘dispensation’ topic is because “oikonomia” is just one of many key Greek terms that Vine’s places under the “musterion” (mystery) umbrella. The answer to your OP query has a basis in the Greek Dictionary and NOT in the minds of professing Dispy’s very much GUILTY of distorting the ‘wisdom given him’ (2Peter 3:14-16 again). Let us take one minute and visit Vine’s definition of “musterion” and perhaps the lights will begin coming on that will help you answer the OP questions more accurately:
Vine’s Expository Dictionary of NT Words:
Those blinded by their own Denominationalism have no idea that they have been tricked by the “god of this world” (2Cor. 4:3-4) into becoming the ‘servants of righteousness’ serving their ‘angel of light’ (2Cor. 11:14-15), even though they continue to distort the ‘wisdom given him’ (Paul) with every single breath and every word they type in these Dispy Debates. Vine’s tells us that, “In the ordinary sense a "mystery" implies KNOWLEDGE WITHHELD; its Scriptural significance is TRUTH REVEALED. Hence the terms especially associated with the subject are "made known," "manifested," "revealed," "preached," "understand," "dispensation." The majority here remains on the ‘knowledge withheld’ side of the equation only thinking in their deluded minds that they actually ‘see’ images of ‘Truth Revealed,’ when in reality their intention is to continue leading the Semantics Charade where everyone is defining the same Greek terms in a variety of different ways. The leader of the Charade on your topic is Lamorak offering up his own wisdom here in Post #35:
Two widely-supported MYTHS are displayed in these two statements [1] and [2]:
1. Vine’s definition just told you that:
Oikonomia:
2. Lamorak says, “The emphasis [is] on the original audience and meaning, the distinction between Israel and the church.” BTW, I added the ‘is’ to allow his incomplete statement to make sense by the inclusion of the missing verb.
The fallacy here comes with the inference that there is only ‘one church’ gathered in the New Testament, which amounts to distorting the ‘wisdom given him’ (Paul); that is common among professing Traditional Dispy’s starting our mystery church (#2) way back in the Four Gospels or in Acts 2 on the Day of Pentecost. In fact, the testimony of these professing Dispy’s is more dangerous for the typical member of Christ’s Body than everything taught by the “Replacement Theology” knuckleheads trying to replace Israel of the flesh with our mystery “His Body” Church (Col. 1:24) addressed ONLY in the Pauline Epistles! The reason is that these ‘one church’ mythologists tear down the ‘First Veil’ (diagram) of God’s Living Word that mixes the ‘water’ (Kingdom in blue) aspects of Kingdom Doctrine for Peter’s Kingdom “Bride” (Church #1) with the ‘blood’ precepts (Grace) teaching Grace Doctrine for Paul’s Mystery “Body of Christ” (Church #2) still very much in the world today.
A prime example of a professing Dispy with ‘these things’ more ‘rightly divided’ is someone like C.R. Stam writing in his book “Things That Differ” (free online here) with my rebuttals to many of his misstatements appearing here if anybody is interested.
You are bogged down in an endless mud bog of Semantics where these people will continue ‘defining’ their terms according to a stated ‘common, but erroneous, use of the word,’ even though everyone has easy access to the real Greek definitions. You are arguing about whether Santa Claus has a white or black beard among people mixing the “Two Gospels” and “Two Churches” of the NT together into a body of ‘false doctrine’ that God sent to NOBODY . . .
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
Skull started this ‘Query Topic’ (see Opening Post) where he is seeking answers from professing Dispy’s in this CF.com Dispy Forum. Answering his questions with other ‘off topic’ food rules questions is throwing effort after foolishness. I answered your ‘food rules’ questions in Post #58 and again in Post #60 where your ‘off topic’ John 13:34-35 “as a servant” suggestion was answered and we received this reply:
Of course! My point of view is what appears in all of my posts on these Dispy Topics, but all I see in your posts is more one-liner drivel as usual. Skull’s OP questions were answered in Post #2 and Post #3 and Post #5 BTW . . . I am a bit surprised to see that Skull offered you more than a one-sentence reply:
Brother In Christ’s definition of ‘dispensation’? Everyone here must use the same Greek Dictionaries where the term “oikonomia” (#3622) will continue to mean “A MODE OF DEALING” to the end of time! The ‘untaught and unstable’ (2Peter 3:14-16) adding ‘time frames’ to “oikonomia” are blindly using the common ‘erroneous use of the word,’ which professing Christians have been doing for just about 2000 years. The sad fact is that professing Dispy’s simply define these terms anyway they wish in order to justify ‘their bogus interpretations’ like we are both seeing up and down this thread. The reason we have so much disagreement and confusion among professing Dispy’s on the ‘dispensation’ topic is because “oikonomia” is just one of many key Greek terms that Vine’s places under the “musterion” (mystery) umbrella. The answer to your OP query has a basis in the Greek Dictionary and NOT in the minds of professing Dispy’s very much GUILTY of distorting the ‘wisdom given him’ (2Peter 3:14-16 again). Let us take one minute and visit Vine’s definition of “musterion” and perhaps the lights will begin coming on that will help you answer the OP questions more accurately:
Vine’s Expository Dictionary of NT Words:
This concept of different ‘dispensations’ is just one principle that is OUTSIDE the range of unassisted natural apprehension that can be made known ONLY by Divine Revelation. The typical professing Dispy has many ‘blind spots’ relating to these ‘mystery’ topics, which requires them to ‘define’ these Greek terms in many different ways for ‘their’ interpretations to make one lick of sense. :0) The substance of Paul’s teachings on these ‘mystery’ topics can ONLY be made known in a matter ‘and’ at A TIME appointed BY GOD HIMSELF and ONLY to those who are ‘illumined by His Spirit.’ You have the “Mystery of Christ” (Eph. 3:4, Col. 4:3) whereby the members of Christ’s Body (1Cor. 12:27, Eph. 4:12, Col. 1:24) are baptized into Christ (Gal. 3:27) by obeying OUR GOSPEL (#2 here) ‘and’ you have the “Mystery of Iniquity/Lawlessness” (2Thes. 2:7-12*) representing the ‘antithesis’ doctrine for everyone baptized into the Antichrist (left side of diagram) where the MANY are forced into ‘believing what is false’ (2Thes. 2:11*) all the days of their pathetic life on this planet. Therefore, professing Dispy’s who fail to realize that manmade ‘Dispensationalism’ IS A DENOMINATION (like Roman Catholicism) oftentimes redefine the Original Greek Terms to mean anything they wish in order to THEN make their ‘false’ interpretations appear like truth.
Those blinded by their own Denominationalism have no idea that they have been tricked by the “god of this world” (2Cor. 4:3-4) into becoming the ‘servants of righteousness’ serving their ‘angel of light’ (2Cor. 11:14-15), even though they continue to distort the ‘wisdom given him’ (Paul) with every single breath and every word they type in these Dispy Debates. Vine’s tells us that, “In the ordinary sense a "mystery" implies KNOWLEDGE WITHHELD; its Scriptural significance is TRUTH REVEALED. Hence the terms especially associated with the subject are "made known," "manifested," "revealed," "preached," "understand," "dispensation." The majority here remains on the ‘knowledge withheld’ side of the equation only thinking in their deluded minds that they actually ‘see’ images of ‘Truth Revealed,’ when in reality their intention is to continue leading the Semantics Charade where everyone is defining the same Greek terms in a variety of different ways. The leader of the Charade on your topic is Lamorak offering up his own wisdom here in Post #35:
Two widely-supported MYTHS are displayed in these two statements [1] and [2]:
1. Vine’s definition just told you that:
Oikonomia:
Dispensations are not historical ordering of any periods of time, but continue to be ‘modes of dealing’ (establishing 'house rules') no matter how many times these people want to change the real definition of the term. Men run backwards into the NT and OT to arrange things in any way they want ‘and’ structure their interpretations using boundaries to constrain elements of ‘time periods.’
2. Lamorak says, “The emphasis [is] on the original audience and meaning, the distinction between Israel and the church.” BTW, I added the ‘is’ to allow his incomplete statement to make sense by the inclusion of the missing verb.
The fallacy here comes with the inference that there is only ‘one church’ gathered in the New Testament, which amounts to distorting the ‘wisdom given him’ (Paul); that is common among professing Traditional Dispy’s starting our mystery church (#2) way back in the Four Gospels or in Acts 2 on the Day of Pentecost. In fact, the testimony of these professing Dispy’s is more dangerous for the typical member of Christ’s Body than everything taught by the “Replacement Theology” knuckleheads trying to replace Israel of the flesh with our mystery “His Body” Church (Col. 1:24) addressed ONLY in the Pauline Epistles! The reason is that these ‘one church’ mythologists tear down the ‘First Veil’ (diagram) of God’s Living Word that mixes the ‘water’ (Kingdom in blue) aspects of Kingdom Doctrine for Peter’s Kingdom “Bride” (Church #1) with the ‘blood’ precepts (Grace) teaching Grace Doctrine for Paul’s Mystery “Body of Christ” (Church #2) still very much in the world today.
A prime example of a professing Dispy with ‘these things’ more ‘rightly divided’ is someone like C.R. Stam writing in his book “Things That Differ” (free online here) with my rebuttals to many of his misstatements appearing here if anybody is interested.
You are bogged down in an endless mud bog of Semantics where these people will continue ‘defining’ their terms according to a stated ‘common, but erroneous, use of the word,’ even though everyone has easy access to the real Greek definitions. You are arguing about whether Santa Claus has a white or black beard among people mixing the “Two Gospels” and “Two Churches” of the NT together into a body of ‘false doctrine’ that God sent to NOBODY . . .
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
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Hi Biblewriter with Skull mentioned:
You made the same mistake in Post #71 by refusing to quote Scripture (2Tim. 3:16-17), so Biblewriter can actually begin writing about the Bible.
At least Skull is asking the questions, which is establishing the fact that he is indeed clueless and seeking answers about something. The Bible and Scripture provide us with the essence of God’s Living Word, but we continue to rely upon Greek Scholars like Vine to provide the true ‘definitions’ of these ancient Greek terms; as already stated in Post #72. Now our resident Biblewriter is going to begin asking his own straw man questions in order to begin reverse engineering his own definitions of ‘dispensation’ . . .
So what? Would you like to demonstrate how the sixth day people from Genesis 1:26-28 were tested by God ‘before’ Adam and Eve were formed and 'before' this still-ongoing ‘seventh day’ (Gen. 2:4+) even began? :0) God told them to “Be fruitful and multiply . . .” (Gen. 1:28), which the Aborigine and Native Indian (beardless races) have been doing on this earth for millions of years. Where is the ‘test?’ :0) None exists, because your assertion is nonsense . . . Where is the limitation of any ‘time period?’ None exists! The Native Inhabitants of the land itself (like the prehistoric creatures) have been multiplying on this earth for millions of years (brief summary of the differences) ‘and’ they shall continue multiplying so long as this earth continues to exist, because God has a covenant WITH THE EARTH ITSELF (Gen. 9:13*) and “every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth” (Gen. 9:16*) and everything belongs to the Lord (Ps. 24:1, 1Cor. 10:26). Your statement above is ‘false,’ because these ‘tests’ are not applied to MANKIND, but the Lord God (Christ) is ‘dealing’ with the members of various ‘dispensations’ in a variety of different ways ‘and’ according to Vine’s definition of the Greek term (oikonomia).
No. God put Adam into the perfect ‘heavenly’ garden in a state of innocence (Gen. 2:7 = far left) having NOTHING to do with the ‘sixth day’ people from Genesis 1 at all. NOTHING. Adam’s earthly incarnation began in Genesis 3:21, when the Lord God began putting His ‘two olive trees/lampsands’ (Zech. 4:14, Rev. 11:4) in human ‘skins.’ We are talking about actions taken by the “Lord God” (Christ = Genesis 2) on this ‘seventh day,’ BTW, and not “His God and Father” (Rev. 1:6,etc.) over in Genesis 1. Also, the Lord God (Christ) subjected Adam to futility (like this universe = Rom. 8:18-22), which is a far cry from any ‘testing.’ Adam also was NOT deceived by Satan or his incarnated serpent host, but the woman was deceived and fell into transgression (1Tim. 2:14). You are badmouthing the coming 'prophet/anointed' (Acts 2:22-23) and might think about selecting your words a little more carefully. :0)
The ‘relationship’ of Innocence that existed between the Lord God (Christ) and His “son of God” (Adam = Luke 3:38) will be restored with the hearts of the fathers (Mal. 4:5-6), when Elijah/David/Adam returns as the ‘prophet’ of Acts 3:22-23 to restore ‘all things’ (Matt. 17:10-11). David/Adam will continue to reign as “king” and “forever” (Eze. 37:24-28), when David/Adam is once again raised up (Jer. 30:9) and installed as king in the New Earth of Revelation 21:1+ (pic = lower left). Therefore, the “Dispensation of Innocence” that you are talking about continues to exist, but currently only includes the ‘son of God’ himself representing the ‘Body of Elijah’ (diagram = in golden yellow opposite the “Body of Moses”
containing all the ‘angels’ of this Adamic Universe; unless you would like to explain how the angels (1Cor. 11:10, Heb. 13:2) are guilty of some crime against God and His Living Word. Noah’s (Eve’s) flood only destroyed the evil Nephilim from the chosen race in the Euphrates Basin and DID NOT affect the entire world as many suspect, but that is the topic of another discussion . . .
Which has NOTHING to do with the tribal ‘sixth day’ peoples (Gen. 1:26-28) that have been multiplying on this earth for millions of years. The Lord God (Christ) is dealing with ‘gods’ (Ps. 82:6, Jn 10:34 = bearded races from Noah) incarnate here from God’s Infinite Realm (far left) who began incarnating upon this earth as ‘your seed’ (Gen. 3:15) along with “her seed” like tares among the wheat. However, that does not place these ‘two groups’ into one single dispensation . . .
This must be a reference to Abraham (another ‘skin’ for your father Adam) where MUCH more is exchanged between the incarnate ‘son of God’ and His “Lord God” (Christ) than mere promises! Again, Israel of the flesh (water witness race taken from Abram’s side like Eve = helper) is being subjected to FUTILITY (like the earth again) IN HOPE (Rom. 8:18-22 again) “that the creation itself will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God” (Rom. 8:21)!! Israel of the flesh has committed the same errors of your mother Eve (Noah, Sarah, Moses, Bathsheba) through the beguiling of the serpent, which finds them struggling under the ‘spirit of stupor’ (Rom. 11:8) even today. Israel is being made JEALOUS (Deut. 32:21), as a ‘weaker vessel’ (1Peter 3:7), in the ‘water witness/servant’ position (Fig 3 in blue) in the same exact way the ‘earth’ (water witness host) is subordinate to the ‘heavens’ (domain of the angels) having ONLY the ‘glory of man’ (1Cor. 11:7); while man “is the image and glory OF GOD” (spirit witness). However, “all Israel will be saved” (Rom. 11:26) “After These Things” of today, when the “Tabernacle of David/Adam” (Acts 15:16-18) is restored and rebuilt and salvation is once again “from the Jews” (Jn 4:22).
You mean the Lord God gave Israel the “ministry of death” (2Cor. 3:7*) and the “ministry of condemnation” (2Cor. 3:9*) that actually has “no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.” 2Cor. 3:10*. Everything boils down to the Lord God subjecting Israel of the flesh to FUTILITY (like Eve), but you error in saying that no man ever kept the Law; because the “doers of the Law will be justified.” Romans 2:13. The truth of this verse makes no sense if “no man ever kept the Law.” Then you have the fact that some are ‘justified BY WORKS and not by faith alone” (James 2:24), which is a point that James makes after citing an example from Abraham! James 2:20-24.
[Continued]
You made the same mistake in Post #71 by refusing to quote Scripture (2Tim. 3:16-17), so Biblewriter can actually begin writing about the Bible.
At least Skull is asking the questions, which is establishing the fact that he is indeed clueless and seeking answers about something. The Bible and Scripture provide us with the essence of God’s Living Word, but we continue to rely upon Greek Scholars like Vine to provide the true ‘definitions’ of these ancient Greek terms; as already stated in Post #72. Now our resident Biblewriter is going to begin asking his own straw man questions in order to begin reverse engineering his own definitions of ‘dispensation’ . . .
So what? Would you like to demonstrate how the sixth day people from Genesis 1:26-28 were tested by God ‘before’ Adam and Eve were formed and 'before' this still-ongoing ‘seventh day’ (Gen. 2:4+) even began? :0) God told them to “Be fruitful and multiply . . .” (Gen. 1:28), which the Aborigine and Native Indian (beardless races) have been doing on this earth for millions of years. Where is the ‘test?’ :0) None exists, because your assertion is nonsense . . . Where is the limitation of any ‘time period?’ None exists! The Native Inhabitants of the land itself (like the prehistoric creatures) have been multiplying on this earth for millions of years (brief summary of the differences) ‘and’ they shall continue multiplying so long as this earth continues to exist, because God has a covenant WITH THE EARTH ITSELF (Gen. 9:13*) and “every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth” (Gen. 9:16*) and everything belongs to the Lord (Ps. 24:1, 1Cor. 10:26). Your statement above is ‘false,’ because these ‘tests’ are not applied to MANKIND, but the Lord God (Christ) is ‘dealing’ with the members of various ‘dispensations’ in a variety of different ways ‘and’ according to Vine’s definition of the Greek term (oikonomia).
No. God put Adam into the perfect ‘heavenly’ garden in a state of innocence (Gen. 2:7 = far left) having NOTHING to do with the ‘sixth day’ people from Genesis 1 at all. NOTHING. Adam’s earthly incarnation began in Genesis 3:21, when the Lord God began putting His ‘two olive trees/lampsands’ (Zech. 4:14, Rev. 11:4) in human ‘skins.’ We are talking about actions taken by the “Lord God” (Christ = Genesis 2) on this ‘seventh day,’ BTW, and not “His God and Father” (Rev. 1:6,etc.) over in Genesis 1. Also, the Lord God (Christ) subjected Adam to futility (like this universe = Rom. 8:18-22), which is a far cry from any ‘testing.’ Adam also was NOT deceived by Satan or his incarnated serpent host, but the woman was deceived and fell into transgression (1Tim. 2:14). You are badmouthing the coming 'prophet/anointed' (Acts 2:22-23) and might think about selecting your words a little more carefully. :0)
The ‘relationship’ of Innocence that existed between the Lord God (Christ) and His “son of God” (Adam = Luke 3:38) will be restored with the hearts of the fathers (Mal. 4:5-6), when Elijah/David/Adam returns as the ‘prophet’ of Acts 3:22-23 to restore ‘all things’ (Matt. 17:10-11). David/Adam will continue to reign as “king” and “forever” (Eze. 37:24-28), when David/Adam is once again raised up (Jer. 30:9) and installed as king in the New Earth of Revelation 21:1+ (pic = lower left). Therefore, the “Dispensation of Innocence” that you are talking about continues to exist, but currently only includes the ‘son of God’ himself representing the ‘Body of Elijah’ (diagram = in golden yellow opposite the “Body of Moses”
containing all the ‘angels’ of this Adamic Universe; unless you would like to explain how the angels (1Cor. 11:10, Heb. 13:2) are guilty of some crime against God and His Living Word. Noah’s (Eve’s) flood only destroyed the evil Nephilim from the chosen race in the Euphrates Basin and DID NOT affect the entire world as many suspect, but that is the topic of another discussion . . . Which has NOTHING to do with the tribal ‘sixth day’ peoples (Gen. 1:26-28) that have been multiplying on this earth for millions of years. The Lord God (Christ) is dealing with ‘gods’ (Ps. 82:6, Jn 10:34 = bearded races from Noah) incarnate here from God’s Infinite Realm (far left) who began incarnating upon this earth as ‘your seed’ (Gen. 3:15) along with “her seed” like tares among the wheat. However, that does not place these ‘two groups’ into one single dispensation . . .
This must be a reference to Abraham (another ‘skin’ for your father Adam) where MUCH more is exchanged between the incarnate ‘son of God’ and His “Lord God” (Christ) than mere promises! Again, Israel of the flesh (water witness race taken from Abram’s side like Eve = helper) is being subjected to FUTILITY (like the earth again) IN HOPE (Rom. 8:18-22 again) “that the creation itself will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God” (Rom. 8:21)!! Israel of the flesh has committed the same errors of your mother Eve (Noah, Sarah, Moses, Bathsheba) through the beguiling of the serpent, which finds them struggling under the ‘spirit of stupor’ (Rom. 11:8) even today. Israel is being made JEALOUS (Deut. 32:21), as a ‘weaker vessel’ (1Peter 3:7), in the ‘water witness/servant’ position (Fig 3 in blue) in the same exact way the ‘earth’ (water witness host) is subordinate to the ‘heavens’ (domain of the angels) having ONLY the ‘glory of man’ (1Cor. 11:7); while man “is the image and glory OF GOD” (spirit witness). However, “all Israel will be saved” (Rom. 11:26) “After These Things” of today, when the “Tabernacle of David/Adam” (Acts 15:16-18) is restored and rebuilt and salvation is once again “from the Jews” (Jn 4:22).
You mean the Lord God gave Israel the “ministry of death” (2Cor. 3:7*) and the “ministry of condemnation” (2Cor. 3:9*) that actually has “no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.” 2Cor. 3:10*. Everything boils down to the Lord God subjecting Israel of the flesh to FUTILITY (like Eve), but you error in saying that no man ever kept the Law; because the “doers of the Law will be justified.” Romans 2:13. The truth of this verse makes no sense if “no man ever kept the Law.” Then you have the fact that some are ‘justified BY WORKS and not by faith alone” (James 2:24), which is a point that James makes after citing an example from Abraham! James 2:20-24.
[Continued]
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No. Salvation by God’s grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-10) is for everyone WHO BELIEVES. Romans 1:16-17, 10:4. God is not offering salvation to ‘your seed’ or the ‘sons of disobedience’ or the ‘servants of righteousness’ serving the ‘angel of light’ (2Cor. 11:14-15). God is not offering salvation to the evil powers of ‘this darkness’ (Eph. 6:12) now fading away (1Cor. 2:6-8) and prepared for a destiny in the LAKE OF FIRE (Rev. 19:20, 20:10-15) that shall continue for ALL the ages to come (Rev. 21:8+). God is calling specific people through ‘our gospel’ (2Thes. 2:13-14) that continues to be “VEILED to those who are PERISHING.” 2Cor. 4:3-4. In fact, Christ testifies that only a ‘few’ are being saved (Luke 13:23-25), which means the “Many” are upon the wide and paved road TO DESTRUCTION. Matt. 7:13-14. Let’s see if God has offered salvation TO ALL by quoting the most famous verses in Scripture . . .
At some point we must grow to understand that God so loved THE WORLD (“Adam” = blue sphere) that He gave His Only Begotten Son (F+S+HS = Christ = red sphere* = Heaven) that whoever believes in Him (Christ = The Word) shall not perish, but have eternal life. This entire universe represents the broken remains of just ONE ‘son of God’ and his name is your father Adam. The ‘heavens’ (invisible universe) represent Adam’s ‘spirit’ (lower right) and the ‘earth’ (visible universe = left in blue*) is Adam’s broken ‘body’ (Eve half) and ‘heaven’ (Gen. 1:8 = begotten) represents Adam’s currently broken ‘soul’ making ready to enlarge into the restored ‘Eth ‘Erets (The Earth) of Genesis 1:1. Perhaps Biblewriter has not obeyed God’s instructions (obedience of faith = Rom. 1:5, 16:26) regarding our gospel for today (#2 here), but that in NO WAY translates into “we” by any stretch of the imagination . . .
That 1000 Year Kingdom (in blue) will be ruled by ‘David himself’ (Eze. 34:23-25) representing just one more ‘skin’ (Gen. 3:21 = pic again) for your father Adam like Abraham (father) and Joshua (deliverer) and Elijah (prophet) and David (king) and John the Baptist (priest) and the coming “prophet” of Acts 3:22-23 (Earthly Messiah) who will indeed be ‘cut off’ (Dan. 9:26) about 56 years (62nd week) ‘before’ the END of the Age. Christ’s “Heavenly Kingdom” (2Tim. 4:18 = my thread) is NOT of this world and NOT even of this realm (John 18:36) AND is NOT temporary at all; but is ‘forevermore’ (Isa. 9:7) . . .
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
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A Brother In Christ
Senior Veteran
Ex 19:1--8 before law
Israel said we will do ... God say let see
romans 3:9,19-20
Man can not do it
Dispensation of Law
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Hi Skull:
Fair? What in the heck does that mean? Every professing Dispy coming to this CF.com Dispy Forum has just as much right to be wrong as Skull, but your definitions of these key Greek terms MUST be taken from the Vines Expository Dictionary of NT Words (link again) without any credence to the many distorted definitions thrown out by professing Dispys. Luke uses this Greek term just three times in three consecutive verses in Luke 16 (2, 3 and 4) and every other use in your Bible appears in Pauls Epistles to the Gentiles (1Cor. 9:17, Eph. 1:10, 3:2 and Col. 1:25). Skull has come to the CF.com Dispy Forum to ask some questions and fair really has nothing to do with anything.
This seems more like trolling than anything else IMHO . . . Just once I would like to open up and read a Skull post that includes quoting Scripture, so we can take a good look at how you are interpreting the truth of Gods Living Word. 2Tim. 2:15. Nobody can use Scripture or the Greek Dictionary to prove that dispensations represent a series of tests for anyone, because nothing like that is taught ANYWHERE in either location. Every living being is tested every day in one way or the other by simply getting out of bed and performing some necessary task, but being included in one of Gods dispensations merely establishes the House Rules for Gods Mode Of Dealing with that particular individual and his family.
Your questions were answered thoroughly on Page 1 of this discussion and, yes; you are beating a very dead horse without mercy and grinding the bones to dust . . .
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
This is nonsense and you know it. Dispensations include house laws (Strongs Lexicon) having nothing to do with testing at all. If that were the case, then Vine (the Online Dictionary) would have simply said so and this simple fact has been pointed out to you already too many times. Some professing Dispys oftentimes redefine these Greek terms to please themselves and their concocted interpretations based upon little more than delusions of Denominationalism (2Thes. 2:7-12) and you seem intent on playing their foolish games.
Fair? What in the heck does that mean? Every professing Dispy coming to this CF.com Dispy Forum has just as much right to be wrong as Skull, but your definitions of these key Greek terms MUST be taken from the Vines Expository Dictionary of NT Words (link again) without any credence to the many distorted definitions thrown out by professing Dispys. Luke uses this Greek term just three times in three consecutive verses in Luke 16 (2, 3 and 4) and every other use in your Bible appears in Pauls Epistles to the Gentiles (1Cor. 9:17, Eph. 1:10, 3:2 and Col. 1:25). Skull has come to the CF.com Dispy Forum to ask some questions and fair really has nothing to do with anything.
This seems more like trolling than anything else IMHO . . . Just once I would like to open up and read a Skull post that includes quoting Scripture, so we can take a good look at how you are interpreting the truth of Gods Living Word. 2Tim. 2:15. Nobody can use Scripture or the Greek Dictionary to prove that dispensations represent a series of tests for anyone, because nothing like that is taught ANYWHERE in either location. Every living being is tested every day in one way or the other by simply getting out of bed and performing some necessary task, but being included in one of Gods dispensations merely establishes the House Rules for Gods Mode Of Dealing with that particular individual and his family.
Your questions were answered thoroughly on Page 1 of this discussion and, yes; you are beating a very dead horse without mercy and grinding the bones to dust . . .
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
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It seems clear to me that ones who refuse dispensational teaching have approached the bible more as a religous book than a book whose intent is to reveal God and his wondrous salvation. God is a dispensationalist and for those who do not like "division" in the scripture, I will inform you that it was the very first mathematical term that he used, and his favorite. It did not take him long to begin dividing things in the very beginning.
Ge 1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
God has been dividing things ever since. Jesus Christ himself is a divider:
Lu 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
He accomplished his purpose:
Joh 7:43 So there was a division among the people because of him.
And there is a great division among the posters on this forum about his person and his work.
He has directed the history of mankind and divided the race, the families, and the nations and has even given the reason for doing it but most of the men on this forum is in flat denial of his explanation.
Ac 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their (The nations) habitation;
Why?
Ac 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Lastly, he divided his word and has instructed the man of God to take note of it and to rightly divide it and from that division, learn of him and his ways.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
He warns: Mt 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
There is a right division of his word and their is a wrong division and we are getting both on this thread.
Ge 1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
God has been dividing things ever since. Jesus Christ himself is a divider:
Lu 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
He accomplished his purpose:
Joh 7:43 So there was a division among the people because of him.
And there is a great division among the posters on this forum about his person and his work.
He has directed the history of mankind and divided the race, the families, and the nations and has even given the reason for doing it but most of the men on this forum is in flat denial of his explanation.
Ac 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their (The nations) habitation;
Why?
Ac 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Lastly, he divided his word and has instructed the man of God to take note of it and to rightly divide it and from that division, learn of him and his ways.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
He warns: Mt 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
There is a right division of his word and their is a wrong division and we are getting both on this thread.
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B
Benefactor
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The anti crowd comes up with some hilarious interpretations. It is amazing the lengths they take to twist the genre and context of that form. I know how they think because I use to be one of them. The Lord saved me from that mess.
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