No conviction of sin

[losthope]

To joey down under,

Thank you for the link to your Sunday morning sermon. I will listen to it after it has been put on line.

You wrote this:
Yes I know you may not feel depression itself but a lot said agreed just with what I have been saying, ranging from God's character to faith not being dependent on feelings.

One of the symptoms of my so-called “benign” brain tumour is that I get some but not all of the symptoms of depression.

For many years as a child my daughter said that she wanted to live where you are. But she never made it.

I am being serious now- God may genuinely not had to change character traits much in you, and what has been changed has been such a gradual process that even people close to have assumed it was just you maturing as a person and/or nothing to do with any type of faith.

That is a theoretical possibility, but I can assure you that there are aspects of my character and my behaviour that God would want to change, but which have not changed. Besides, I think that this came up in the context of me saying that I had no feedback from God to confirm my decision to be a Christian, so if God did act very slowly so that nobody noticed, there is still no sign that God has accepted me. Additionally, there are the other non-happenings such as never having a prayer answered. I am still convinced that there was no feedback from God that I am aware of.

Did any of your friends talk about any personal difficulties they had with doubt and not ever hearing God speak to them via an inner voice or feelings?

Yes, both when I was a believer and in the years since then. Although I have no recollection of anyone telling me that they had never been in contact with God as a believer. It was more telling me about wilderness phases. In this situation Christians are usually advised to hold onto what God has done for them in the past, and to go on trusting that God will bless them again in the future. Unfortunately I am unable to do that because I have no awareness of God doing anything for me in the past.

Feelings are not the important thing. You have stated you have definitely sinned, therefore you know you are a sinner. Do you think a genuine atheist could say such a thing?

Yes. Why not? In any case, I class myself as an agnostic – a don’t know – rather than an atheist.

Seem, seem, SEEM. Forget about seem, feel, instinctively "know" or any other word remotely related to emotions. Do you trust the Bible (and therefore God) to be telling the truth about spiritual battles and the need for christians to be on their guard?

Putting trust in the Bible is something that Christians do. I want to be able to trust God. Only when that has happened and God has responded, will I be able even to begin to trust the Bible in the way that many Christians do.

Do you really think only christians are spiritually attacked?

I think you have misunderstood me here. I was not saying that it is only Christians who are vulnerable to spiritual attacks. What I meant was that it is only people who have spiritual awareness – people who have a spiritual dimension to their life and are open to spiritual influences – who are vulnerable to spiritual attacks. Currently I have no spiritual dimension to my life that I am aware of. Christians, Buddhists, new age people, and people of no faith have all commented on my apparent lack of spiritual awareness. If and when I develop some spiritual awareness, some openness to spiritual influences, then I would have to guard against spiritual attacks as well as trying to be open to the influence of God.

You must be going to be a completely different part of the body of Christ to me then. I got a mental picture of you being an excellent foot. Can handle immense pressure and heavy loads no worries, and you've got a very high tolerance for pain.

If that is what a foot would have to do, then at present I am not ready to be a foot. Can I handle immense pressure and heavy loads? Er... no.

 

[joey_downunder]

One of the symptoms of my so-called “benign” brain tumour is that I get some but not all of the symptoms of depression.

Yes depression can include many different symptoms. Would you say your depression is more biological depression or Existential Depression? Or an unfortunate mixture of both? Very interesting that the article states that very little research or treatment available. Perhaps it really is spiritual but psychologists don't want admit that for whatever reason. If you do think existential depression may be contributing to your current situation then I'll find the website that helped me dissect mine.

For many years as a child my daughter said that she wanted to live where you are. But she never made it.

That is totally understandable. English people are always treated as family down under. New Zealanders say the same.

That is a theoretical possibility, but I can assure you that there are aspects of my character and my behaviour that God would want to change, but which have not changed.

Read Romans 7:14-25. Is Paul speaking in past tense or present tense? Not one single person will ever be perfect in their lifetime.

Besides, I think that this came up in the context of me saying that I had no feedback from God to confirm my decision to be a Christian, so if God did act very slowly so that nobody noticed, there is still no sign that God has accepted me.

Do you believe the Bible to be telling the truth when it says that all who believe in God will not be rejected, but accepted, loved and so on? John 6:37, Galatians 3:23-26 , Galatians 4:4-7, romans 8:15-16 Is there any mention of mandatory signs, feelings, experiences, following certain laws to become a child of God or is faith only mentioned?

Additionally, there are the other non-happenings such as never having a prayer answered. I am still convinced that there was no feedback from God that I am aware of.

Can you look back over your life and make a list (mental or written) of specific events have occurred at just the right time and place? e.g. at exactly the right time meeting someone and you knew exactly the right thing to say or could help them in a way most people can't or vice versa? Don't worry about pre-, during, or post- christian time slots. Look at the pattern. Look at that list of events. How have you grown as a person through those experiences?

Yes, both when I was a believer and in the years since then. Although I have no recollection of anyone telling me that they had never been in contact with God as a believer.

Do they mean only experientially in a personal feeling type of way, or are they including all methods that God could speak to them via reading Bible, hearing sermons, having the right people there for them at the right place and so on?

Unfortunately I am unable to do that because I have no awareness of God doing anything for me in the past.

No awareness does not mean it has never happened. Think of your situation right now in your country. Like me you are blessed to be in a country with a relatively free health system or a health system at all. Your condition was diagnosed, it is being treated, you have the support of a loving family. Think of how different your circumstances would be if you were in third-world countries, even the USA or if you didn't have family there for you!

Yes. Why not? In any case, I class myself as an agnostic – a don’t know – rather than an atheist.

A sin-aware atheist/agnostic is as much of an oxymoron as an honest Murdoch newspaper or a happy (i.e. non-whinging) Pom. Admit it.

Putting trust in the Bible is something that Christians do. I want to be able to trust God. Only when that has happened and God has responded, will I be able even to begin to trust the Bible in the way that many Christians do.

1. Looking back in your life have you always been provided for even if it may not have seen it at the time?
2. Do you view the Bible as trustworthy because you have checked objective outside sources backing up its claims and teachings?

I think you have misunderstood me here. I was not saying that it is only Christians who are vulnerable to spiritual attacks. What I meant was that it is only people who have spiritual awareness – people who have a spiritual dimension to their life and are open to spiritual influences – who are vulnerable to spiritual attacks.....

No no no. The only person who will not be spiritually attacked is the one working directly for the enemy. Even then precautionary measures will be taken to keep that slave in line. I once listened to a true satanist's (i.e. knowingly worships Satan, not themself) ravings on a CHRISTIAN radio program (I wish I remembered the website) and the mind games used on her by the demon she had described when communicating with that demon that convinced her that Satan was the true victim were astounding.

......If and when I develop some spiritual awareness, some openness to spiritual influences, then I would have to guard against spiritual attacks as well as trying to be open to the influence of God.

Are you able to analyse your thoughts and where they come from? e.g. from yourself, or from past influences like family or schooling, or thoughts that come from nowhere?

If that is what a foot would have to do, then at present I am not ready to be a foot. Can I handle immense pressure and heavy loads? Er... no

That was just speculation because you are the opposite to me. You may not currently be able to handle pressure etc but you do sound like a very strong individual over all.

* Just found this link re people finding over-emotional modern worship services off-putting. Very relevant to a thinking person like yourself. VCY America, Inc. - Offensive Music in the Church

 

[losthope]

To joey down under,
You wrote this:
depression can include many different symptoms. Would you say your depression is more biological depression or Existential Depression? Or an unfortunate mixture of both?

It is biological depression. This has been confirmed by a psychologist based on the pattern of symptoms – having some symptoms but not other symptoms – of depression that I have.

Read Romans 7:14-25. Is Paul speaking in past tense or present tense? Not one single person will ever be perfect in their lifetime.

Mostly present tense, with a bit in the past tense in my Bible. I agree that nobody is ever perfect, but I would have expected God at least to attempt to work on the person to improve them.

Do you believe the Bible to be telling the truth when it says that all who believe in God will not be rejected, but accepted, loved and so on? John 6:37, Galatians 3:23-26 , Galatians 4:4-7, romans 8:15-16 Is there any mention of mandatory signs, feelings, experiences, following certain laws to become a child of God or is faith only mentioned?

I do not accept that believing in, asking for forgiveness from and asking God into your heart is sufficient to classify the person as a Christian. They may be a believer, but not necessarily saved. They will only be accepted by God when or if God answers their prayer. Grace is needed for salvation; it is something that God has to do. It is not something that a person can achieve by themselves simply by believing and saying a particular type of prayer. Ephesians 2:4-10.

Can you look back over your life and make a list (mental or written) of specific events have occurred at just the right time and place? e.g. at exactly the right time meeting someone and you knew exactly the right thing to say or could help them in a way most people can't or vice versa? Don't worry about pre-, during, or post- christian time slots. Look at the pattern. Look at that list of events. How have you grown as a person through those experiences?

Events occurring at just the right time? Not in my life. More often it is events happening at the wrong time. Though I have seen it happen for other people.

Do they mean only experientially in a personal feeling type of way, or are they including all methods that God could speak to them via reading Bible, hearing sermons, having the right people there for them at the right place and so on?

They were speaking of what appeared to them to be complete isolation from hearing God.

No awareness does not mean it has never happened. Think of your situation right now in your country. Like me you are blessed to be in a country with a relatively free health system or a health system at all. Your condition was diagnosed, it is being treated, you have the support of a loving family.

I agree with you about the health system. However, it was not the health system that diagnosed my condition. I did most of the work myself. And in terms of the timing, it would have been much better for my health if it had been diagnosed and treated at least two years earlier.

A sin-aware atheist/agnostic is as much of an oxymoron as an honest Murdoch newspaper or a happy (i.e. non-whinging) Pom. Admit it.

I wonder if see a little Christian prejudice here. Possibly based on the idea of original sin. The idea that all goodness comes from God and that without God we are all evil. I disagree. There is much goodness in the world outside Christianity and there is much awareness of wrong-doing outside Christianity.

1. Looking back in your life have you always been provided for even if it may not have seen it at the time?
2. Do you view the Bible as trustworthy because you have checked objective outside sources backing up its claims and teachings?

Have I always been provided for? In some ways, yes, more or less. In spiritual terms, definitely not. Do I view the Bible as trustworthy? Up to a point. But I have some reservations. For example, in any disagreement between Christians, both sides usually quote from the Bible to back up their arguments. I have not checked objective outside sources, except perhaps the most important outside source – God – and have yet to receive that confirmation of the Bible.

No no no. The only person who will not be spiritually attacked is the one working directly for the enemy.

It looks as if for the moment we are disagreeing about the ability of the enemy to have a spiritual influence on me. It is possible that the enemy will attempt a spiritual attack, but my experience suggests to me that I will not be aware of it because of my lack of spiritual awareness.

Are you able to analyse your thoughts and where they come from? e.g. from yourself, or from past influences like family or schooling, or thoughts that come from nowhere?

I have far too many thoughts to be able to do this for all of them. There are inevitably many influences. However, I do not detect some kinds of influences that other people tell me about, especially influences that involve the emotions and spiritual influences of any kind.

As an example, people tell of me being aware of the “atmosphere” in a church or another building or place. I have never experienced this. They also speak of “gut feelings”, whatever they may be.

Just found this link re people finding over-emotional modern worship services off-putting.

I listened to it. They spoke more about the use of music than the use of emotions. They did say about certain types of music having spiritual or even sexual influences on people. Again that is something that I do not experience myself, but I recognise that other people are affected in that way. Interesting that nobody spoke about the use of repeated choruses as “vain repetition, like the heathen”.

 

[oi_antz]

Proverbs 20:5
Though good advice lies deep within a counselor's heart, the wise man will draw it out.

 

[joey_downunder]

It is biological depression. This has been confirmed by a psychologist based on the pattern of symptoms – having some symptoms but not other symptoms – of depression that I have.

I hope you're getting good medical treatment for your depression then. A christian acquaintance has been on anti-depressants for over 10 years which controls her symptoms. She's British as well. And no it wasn't coming to Australia that brought the depression on.

Mostly present tense, with a bit in the past tense in my Bible. I agree that nobody is ever perfect, but I would have expected God at least to attempt to work on the person to improve them.

Do I sense a bit of "Blackadder" caustic humour in that statement?

I do not accept that believing in , asking for forgiveness from and asking God into your heart is sufficient to classify the person as a Christian. They may be a believer, but not necessarily saved.

Yes Billy Graham crusades oversimplified "becoming a christian" a great deal with the just invite Jesus into your heart formula. That was more a believe in your confession of faith, not believe in God. Belief alone isn't enough either. James 2:19 True belief i.e. FAITH IN GOD will result in love of God and gratitude for what He has done for us. Our heart and mind will change and therefore personal conduct and good works will change as well.

Events occurring at just the right time? Not in my life. More often it is events happening at the wrong time. Though I have seen it happen for other people.

Well I have one event personally relevant for you right now. I was reading a christian blog on a totally unrelated subject this afternoon and this quote immediately made me think of you, despairing that you haven't felt the despair of feeling sinful and unforgiven to qualify as a believer.

.....The Apostle Paul, to say nothing of James, John, and Andrew, did not seem to be despairing before he was converted. We have no record of the other apostles despairing before their conversions either. In fact, it is difficult to find any believer in the Scriptures who must pass through the so-called "dark night of the soul" that mystics are always jabbering about before he is converted. Job might have suffered such, but he was already converted. On the other hand, Judas Iscariot despaired, and he was not converted.....

Was it despair that saved the apostles, the same apostles who also betrayed Jesus, or was it faith in Jesus? It was their faith of course! The faith that came about when they looked at Jesus Himself hebrews 12:2 , and not at their sin (of denying Him). They knew that this was true 1 corinthians 15:3-9 , they were willing to die for Jesus EIPS - The History of the Early Christian Martyrs. They took their eyes off their sinfulness and were only interested in following Him out of love for God. So now don't you dare try and tell me that God isn't trying to reach you. I would never have noticed that quote to that extent except for your genuine asking for help on that exact topic. *wagging finger at you*

I agree with you about the health system. However, it was not the health system that diagnosed my condition. I did most of the work myself. And in terms of the timing, it would have been much better for my health if it had been diagnosed and treated at least two years earlier.

But God gave you the ability to do that work for yourself. Many people would not have that ability or opportunity to look for the necessary information. Many of us christians struggle with the "if onlys" as well.

I wonder if see a little Christian prejudice here. Possibly based on the idea of original sin. The idea that all goodness comes from God and that without God we are all evil. I disagree. There is much goodness in the world outside Christianity and there is much awareness of wrong-doing outside Christianity.

How I love the understatedness of the British. A little?!!!! But you've got to admit, can you imagine the average atheist saying "I'm a sinner or I have done things that qualify as sins"? No way, they find every excuse in the book and then proceed to write a few of their own....

I have not checked objective outside sources, except perhaps the most important outside source – God – and have yet to receive that confirmation of the Bible.

Then perhaps it's time to start doing that. Here's an academic librarian's website. Tekton Education and Apologetics Ministries If you claim you want more academic websites, then I can find them. You've got a qualified librarian typing to you.

It looks as if for the moment we are disagreeing about the ability of the enemy to have a spiritual influence on me.

Too right. Gravity will make people fall even if they believe they can fly. Too much food will make a person fat whether it's full fat, low fat or no fat. And the Enemy can attack people whether they feel it or not.

I have far too many thoughts to be able to do this for all of them. There are inevitably many influences......

Yes it can be challenging and time consuming to figure out where all your thoughts come from. Quite painful too if they're thoughts you want to avoid. Do you ever have thoughts that make you wonder "where on earth did that come from? I wasn't thinking of that topic a second ago..."

As an example, people tell of me being aware of the “atmosphere” in a church or another building or place. I have never experienced this. They also speak of “gut feelings”, whatever they may be.

So you never feel more or less comfortable in one physical place than another? We really are at the other end of the spectrum!

I listened to it. They spoke more about the use of music than the use of emotions. They did say about certain types of music having spiritual or even sexual influences on people.

I think they were very concerned about how music was being used in a religious setting. Music plays a major part in modern worship and callers in complete agreement with the commentator's criticism of shallow emotional "me-focused" lyrics, and strong beat/minor key chords affecting mental consciousness.

Interesting that nobody spoke about the use of repeated choruses as “vain repetition, like the heathen”.

That is a very good point! I am very glad that the church I now can attend never repeats choruses over and over and over.... and over like other churches I have been to in the past. You know that was a major reason I felt comfortable in finally getting being baptised here. I know you don't really know what I mean, but the worship and sermons always feel genuine. No hint of trying to impress people or draw people's attention to the musicians. No trying to pull at heart strings, just matter-of-fact preaching. The attention is always on God.

 

[joey_downunder]

I have just found this video from the Baptist forum.

‪What do I do if I've tried to believe in Jesus but can't?‬‏ - YouTube

 

[bling]

It is a very sensible suggestion. However, I have been on Alpha courses and similar courses four times, in about 1994, 1997, 2007 and 2010. Each was run by a different local church.

Please do not give up we are not giving up on you. To some degree there is a timing to all this. I have talked to people for years with no responce and then suddenly tragidy strikes and they have a whole new perspective on life. You are not that unque. I am a little surprised that Alpha did not have a greater impack on your thinking. I would ask that you even try it again.

 

[losthope]

To joey down under.

I was quite surprised when you wrote this:
Do I sense a bit of "Blackadder" caustic humour in that statement?

There was no intention to put in any caustic humour. My apologies if it came out that way.

FAITH IN GOD will result in love of God and gratitude for what He has done for us. Our heart and mind will change and therefore personal conduct and good works will change as well.

I agree that these things can happen as a result of a person becoming a believer. My understanding of Christianity means that I still maintain that they are not saved until God acts. Faith and works are fine, but they do not guarantee salvation. Only grace could do that.

this quote immediately made me think of you, despairing that you haven't felt the despair of feeling sinful and unforgiven to qualify as a believer.

No, I am not despairing because I do not have strong feelings of being sinful. I am trying to find out if my lack of real awareness of being a sinner is what is preventing me finding God. It is one possibility, but there are other possibilities.

I appreciate what was written about faith being what was needed for the apostles. It is just that my experience tells me that faith is not enough for me. If faith was all that I needed, then I would have been a Christian for many years now.

I also appreciate your offer of help to determine the accuracy and validity of the Bible. However, I am looking to find faith in God and a relationship with God. Not faith in a book. Maybe if I become a Christian then I will begin to think of the Bible in the same way that you do. But for me it is not relevant now. For me, faith in God has to come first, and only after that would the Bible become vital. To put it another way, my trinity does not consist of the father, the son and the bible.

Do you ever have thoughts that make you wonder "where on earth did that come from? I wasn't thinking of that topic a second ago..."

Very rarely.

I also watched the video that you gave the link to. Unfortunately it had a different effect on me from what you thought about it. It reminded me of the many occasions over the years when Christians have made good-sounding statements, often based on passages from the Bible, that were more wishful thinking than real help. Wishful thinking has its place. But not for someone who is really struggling.

I seem to have disagreed with you quite a few times in this posting. Mainly that is because your experience of God has been so completely different from mine.

 

[losthope]

Please do not give up we are not giving up on you. To some degree there is a timing to all this. I have talked to people for years with no responce and then suddenly tragidy strikes and they have a whole new perspective on life. You are not that unque. I am a little surprised that Alpha did not have a greater impack on your thinking. I would ask that you even try it again.

I agree with you that timing is a possibility. One explanation for my lack of contact with God, an explanation that is consistent with my experience, is that God wants me to wait until some particular event has occurred before I am ready to become a Christian. Maybe that event will be tragedy. Though for me the most significant and tragic event of my life is my failure as a believer all those years ago. More significant than the brain tumour that changed the pattern of my life in so many ways. Yet despite my despair, I could not find God responding to my prayers.

If timing was the reason for my failure to find God, then there would be nothing that I could do about it. I would simply have to wait until God was ready for me.

Another Alpha course? Yes, I might. But I will wait to be invited.

 

[joey_downunder]

There was no intention to put in any caustic humour. My apologies if it came out that way.

I wasn't being serious at all.

My understanding of Christianity means that I still maintain that they are not saved until God acts. Faith and works are fine, but they do not guarantee salvation. Only grace could do that.

Yes God's grace is what saves us, and that grace comes through faith in Jesus, not feelings, conviction of sin, good works etc. 1 John 4:15

No, I am not despairing because I do not have strong feelings of being sinful. I am trying to find out if my lack of real awareness of being a sinner is what is preventing me finding God. It is one possibility, but there are other possibilities.

Despairing is a rather strong feeling word isn't it? It was the same term used in the quote so I used it as well.

I appreciate what was written about faith being what was needed for the apostles. It is just that my experience tells me that faith is not enough for me. If faith was all that I needed, then I would have been a Christian for many years now.

That sounds a bit like faith in personal religious faith rather than faith in God thinking again. What made you took your eyes off God and onto your lack of personal experience instead? This is starting to sound a bit like faith + works thinking on your part. Galatians 3:1-6 Because you couldn't see any good works in your life (too much comparing yourself to other christians around you as well!), you assumed you didn't have a real faith and therefore didn't qualify as a real christian. God sees things very differently. He knows us in and out, warts and all. 1 Samuel 16:7

For me, faith in God has to come first, and only after that would the Bible become vital. To put it another way, my trinity does not consist of the father, the son and the bible.

Perhaps it's become a bit of a "what comes first, the chicken or the egg" scenario? How do you think personal faith will develop if you don't know basic christian teachings and/or what the bible actually says about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit?

I also watched the video that you gave the link to. Unfortunately it had a different effect on me from what you thought about it. It reminded me of the many occasions over the years when Christians have made good-sounding statements, often based on passages from the Bible, that were more wishful thinking than real help. Wishful thinking has its place. But not for someone who is really struggling.

I had mixed feelings about it. I thought you might have found his focus on feelings off-putting because lack of feelings is a major part in your current situation. It was his focus on God Himself and his message of "what a gift of faith that it is, not anything that we can do ourselves" that I hoped would stick with you. Feeling convicted will not bring salvation, faith in Jesus will. john 6:37-40

I seem to have disagreed with you quite a few times in this posting. Mainly that is because your experience of God has been so completely different from mine.

That doesn't matter at all. I am finding your honesty very refreshing and openess about your lack of faith very enlightening. I like trying to understand things and people from a very different perspective.

 

[losthope]

To joey down under,

You wrote this:
Yes God's grace is what saves us, and that grace comes through faith in Jesus, not feelings, conviction of sin, good works etc.

There are plenty of examples in the Bible of where it says that God wants people to repent and to turn to God, and when they do this God responds in a good way. I have been trying to think of an acronym for grace, but I get stuck at God’s response after c... e...

That sounds a bit like faith in personal religious faith rather than faith in God thinking again. What made you took your eyes off God and onto your lack of personal experience instead? This is starting to sound a bit like faith + works thinking on your part. Galatians 3:1-6 Because you couldn't see any good works in your life (too much comparing yourself to other christians around you as well!), you assumed you didn't have a real faith and therefore didn't qualify as a real christian. God sees things very differently. He knows us in and out, warts and all. 1 Samuel 16:7

No, that was not how it was. Though I am not quite sure what you mean by “faith in personal religious faith” – unless perhaps it is something like Jesus accused the Pharisees of having.

I would not say that I took my eyes off God and onto my lack of personal experience instead. Perhaps it was more that I tried to look at God but was very surprised when I could not find God.

I definitely did not compare my “good works” with those of other Christians. It was a lack of feedback from God that I recognised, not disappointment at good works.

How do you think personal faith will develop if you don't know basic christian teachings and/or what the bible actually says about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit?

That is not my situation. I think you may have misunderstood something about my comments on the Bible. It is one thing to read the Bible and to learn about God from reading the Bible; I am able to do that. I can assure you that I am familiar with basic Christian teachings. However, it is something quite different to revere the Bible, and to have trust in the Bible; I am not in a position to do that at the moment.

Feeling convicted will not bring salvation, faith in Jesus will. john 6:37-40

Well, it is possible that having a conviction of sin could lead someone to have faith in Jesus as their saviour.

In John 6:37-40 Jesus speaks about people gaining eternal life, to be raised up on the last day. For me, salvation has to be much more than this; it has to be about abundant life and knowing God in the here and now. As I have said before, eternal life is currently of no interest to me, and I cannot see my attitude changing on this until or unless I find a relationship with God in this life. If salvation is only about eternal life, then I am not interested, because I am not expecting there to be any life after death for me.

I am finding your honesty very refreshing and openess about your lack of faith very enlightening. I like trying to understand things and people from a very different perspective.

Thank you. I also like trying to understand people.

 

[joey_downunder]

There are plenty of examples in the Bible of where it says that God wants people to repent and to turn to God, and when they do this God responds in a good way. I have been trying to think of an acronym for grace, but I get stuck at God’s response after c... e...

Yes you are right about that! Especially in the Old Testament there are a lot of examples of sinners being confronted with their sins and the sinner agreeing they are a sinner (like you say you have done). It doesn't stop there though. The repentant person always shows that repentance in action. They change their behaviour and whole way of thinking. Proverbs 28:13 They don't merely express remorse (and show hints of self-pity) like King Saul did after not following the prophet Samuel's very clear instructions about destroying all the Amalekites' possessions as well. Look at Saul's response. 1 Samuel 15:17-31 Saved people truly away from their sins and towards God instead. e.g. King David. See 2 Samuel 11:1-12:25 See how King David's heart has changed. psalm 51 You can see how much he acknowledges God's mercy and love for him and how determined he is to please God as a response to God's love.

Though I am not quite sure what you mean by “faith in personal religious faith” – unless perhaps it is something like Jesus accused the Pharisees of having.

By that I mean a self-proclaimed christian (who may or may be a genuine one) believe they have made a real personal commitment through their own words i.e. "sinner's prayer", not through hearing the Gospel and believing in God in response. Yes it may sound like splitting hairs, however I know I have done both. I suppose a sinner's prayer can be compared to marriage vows. A husband and wife may sincerely make a genuine public commitment to each other but they both have to work for the rest of their lives at making the marriage successful. (Yes I know that you will say you have worked at the marriage but the spiritual spouse i.e. God has never responded. I am just using a mental picture that you would be familiar with since you are married.)

I would not say that I took my eyes off God and onto my lack of personal experience instead. Perhaps it was more that I tried to look at God but was very surprised when I could not find God.

Have you forgotten that many christians do not hear God through experience at all but only through reading the Bible and listening to preaching - myself included? You obviously have a very good memory for the Bible and christian doctrine and I am merely trying to jog your memory. A christian would probably say God obviously gave you that very good mind.

I definitely did not compare my “good works” with those of other Christians. It was a lack of feedback from God that I recognised, not disappointment at good works.

I am very glad I was wrong in my impression about comparing yourself with other christians. Weren't you ever able to read the Bible and able to receive a message that spoke clearly to you? e.g. this one could speak very clearly to those who are in difficult circumstances e.g. severe medical conditions and can't see any way out or improvement in their case. Habakkuk 3:17-19

It is one thing to read the Bible and to learn about God from reading the Bible; I am able to do that. I can assure you that I am familiar with basic Christian teachings. However, it is something quite different to revere the Bible, and to have trust in the Bible; I am not in a position to do that at the moment.

From pretty early on in our discussion I could tell you had a fairly good christian grounding and so I have been trying to remind you of what the Bible actually says. That second sentence was directly addressed in my woman's Bible study today -again just by "chance".

The Bible speaks of the cleansing effect of scripture psalm 119:9 , john 15:3. Why is it important to be washed daily by God's word?
Quick answer: it is only the clean in heart who will see God. matthew 5:8 , 1 Peter 1:14-16

Well, it is possible that having a conviction of sin could lead someone to have faith in Jesus as their saviour.

Faith in God Romans 11:33-36 leads to conviction of sin leading to true repentance and renewal of mind romans 12:1-3.
Look at Acts 2:14-41. The people heard apostle Peter's preaching first (necessary to form faith), then were convicted of their sin (knew they had sinned/were sinners) then responded to Peter's call to believe in Jesus and be baptised. Again try not to think about feelings; think about decisions, a person's own will, their choices in response to faith.

In John 6:37-40 Jesus speaks about people gaining eternal life, to be raised up on the last day. For me, salvation has to be much more than this; it has to be about abundant life and knowing God in the here and now.

I see you use the term "abundant life" -have you read or listened to any authors like Joel Olsteen? How about other christians who you have spoken to about their or your faith?

If salvation is only about eternal life, then I am not interested, because I am not expecting there to be any life after death for me.

What do you think about the apostle Paul's statement here, especially 19th verse? 1 corinthians 15:12-19 I am not trying to be flippant, that is a serious question! Remember I understand why you want to feel God's presence like other people seem to all the time.

Thank you. I also like trying to understand people.

This feeling person likes deep thinking people very much. Probably explains why I got on well with my Dad.

 

[losthope]

To joey down under,

I notice that there are quite a few Bible references in your recent posting. A good way to make sure that I open my Bible. I remember some years ago when a Christian woman was writing to me, and she would write out all of her Bible verses in the letter. I suggested to her that it would be better from her point of view just to give me the reference. Then not only would I open the Bible but I would also see other verses nearby, and maybe one of those would be even more relevant.

You wrote this:
The repentant person always shows that repentance in action. They change their behaviour and whole way of thinking.

Yes, repentance does imply action as well as words, not just sorrow at being caught. When I became a believer, I did change my behaviour, embracing the kind of actions that you would expect from an active believer. I am not sure that I changed my whole way of thinking, but I was able to try to see things from a Christian perspective, as a forgiven sinner. It did not bring me a personal relationship with God, though.

See how King David's heart has changed. psalm 51 You can see how much he acknowledges God's mercy and love for him and how determined he is to please God as a response to God's love.

I found Psalm 51 very interesting. In particular I looked at verses 10 to 12 and 17. Verses 10 to 12 show that for David, having a relationship with God and getting a response from God was vital if he was to continue to be a faithful servant of God.

Verse 17 says that God wants a broken and contrite heart, a broken spirit. Isn’t that what I have been asking about all the time in this thread, about having a real conviction of sin? It is not just about feelings, it is about having a contrite heart.

I appreciate your attempt to explain to me what you meant when you wrote “faith in personal religious faith”. I am still unclear about it. But please, don’t try again to explain. Hopefully it does not matter. Maybe you were trying to explain some spiritual truth, and I am not very good at understanding spiritual truths.

Have you forgotten that many christians do not hear God through experience at all but only through reading the Bible and listening to preaching - myself included?

A person can hear God in many ways. From what you have written, it appears that you do hear God, by which I mean that you have experience that you could describe as God contacting you or responding to you. Examples are when you write about receiving a message when reading the Bible, and of things happening with perfect timing. Hearing God in these ways, if it really is hearing God, are examples of God responding.

However, I am aware that there are many believers, some of them senior pastors, who claim that the only way to know God is through the Bible, saying that they have never experienced things such as answered prayers and divine guidance, and not expecting really to hear God until eternity. That is not a form of Christianity that attracts me. I admire their faith; I just hope that God really does know them, and that they will not be rejected because “I never knew you.”

A christian would probably say God obviously gave you that very good mind.

Some Christians say that God gave me a good mind. Other Christians have said that because I think too much I am going to find it difficult to accept God and to appreciate God, that intelligence is a barrier – even when I remind them of Paul and his letters.

I have a question. If God gave me a very good mind, did God also give me my very inadequate “heart”? There are many references in the Bible to having a pure heart, and doing things with all your heart, and only a few about using the mind. Having a very good mind and a very poor heart is not a very helpful combination when it comes to knowing God.

Weren't you ever able to read the Bible and able to receive a message that spoke clearly to you? e.g. this one could speak very clearly to those who are in difficult circumstances e.g. severe medical conditions and can't see any way out or improvement in their case. Habakkuk 3:17-19

Read the Bible and receive a message that spoke clearly to me? I wish! No, I never had that experience. It was the lack of such experience during my time as a believer, plus lack of other experiences, that made me realise that I was getting no feedback from God. I know that many Christians have told me about getting a message that spoke clearly to them. They often assume that I must have had a similar experience, and sometimes refuse to believe me when I say no.

I do find interesting verses, of course, such as those from Psalm 51. But I would not describe it as receiving a message that spoke clearly to me. Indeed, there are other verses in Psalm 51 that appear to me to contradict the Christian gospel message – but this is not the time or place to discuss that.

I read those verses from Habakkuk but to me they do not say anything about medical conditions.

The Bible speaks of the cleansing effect of scripture psalm 119:9 , john 15:3. Why is it important to be washed daily by God's word?

To me, neither of these verses is about scripture. It is about words literally – what is said. I am aware that for many Christians, whenever they see “word” in the Bible they assume that it is referring to scripture. No. In many cases in the Bible God’s word means just that – the words that God has spoken. Or sometimes it is a short way of saying that what God says is to be trusted.

Faith in God Romans 11:33-36 leads to conviction of sin leading to true repentance and renewal of mind romans 12:1-3.
Look at Acts 2:14-41. The people heard apostle Peter's preaching first (necessary to form faith), then were convicted of their sin (knew they had sinned/were sinners) then responded to Peter's call to believe in Jesus and be baptised. Again try not to think about feelings; think about decisions, a person's own will, their choices in response to faith.

Faith, repentance, renewing the mind, hearing preaching, being convicted of sin, responding, being baptised – these are all important. Maybe they occur in a different order for different people. I would not want to argue that they necessarily have to occur in a particular order.

I agree that a person’s decisions, choices and will are important. But, and it is a big but, I made a decision to serve God, I chose to ask God into my life and yet I still failed to find God or to have a relationship with God. That is why I am asking about the importance of having a conviction of sin. Not feelings, but in whatever way the Holy Spirit might choose to affect me.

I see you use the term "abundant life" -have you read or listened to any authors like Joel Olsteen? How about other christians who you have spoken to about their or your faith?

Jesus speaks about life more abundant. I am not familiar with the work of Joel Olsteen.

What particular aspect were you thinking about when you asked if other Christians had spoken to me about their faith or mine?

What do you think about the apostle Paul's statement here, especially 19th verse? 1 corinthians 15:12-19 I am not trying to be flippant, that is a serious question!

And here is my serious answer. Looking at it from a Christian perspective, God made each of us to be individuals. All different. As you implied in an earlier posting when you spoke about me perhaps being a foot, while you were some other part of the body. For some people, being raised from the dead is absolutely essential; without this promise, they would have no reason to be believers. From verse 19 it sounds as if Paul is such a person. I know that he writes as if it were true for everyone, but people do that when they speak or write, saying “we” when they really mean “I”.

I am different. For me, my desire was to serve God in this life. And to do that I would need to get feedback from God so that I would know precisely how God wants me personally to serve.

I am aware that for many Christians, life after death is vital. I am different. I have one possible explanation for why I am different, which you may or may not agree with. The Bible tells us that it is a person’s spirit (though the Bible also sometimes uses the word soul instead of spirit) that lives on after their death. The Bible says that we will gain a spiritual body (though I am not quite sure what that means). Now, I have no spiritual awareness at all. That means that I am not aware of having a spirit. If it is a person’s spirit that lives on after the physical body dies, then I have no awareness of anything within me that is eternal. That could be why I have no interest in eternal life. Until my spirit, assuming that I have a spirit, is awakened, life after death will continue to be irrelevant for me.

Christianity is a package, with lots of blessings involved. Does it really matter that I am more interested in one part of the package while someone else is more interested in a different part? Thinking in terms of being different parts of the body, feet need shoes; hands need gloves.

This feeling person likes deep thinking people very much.

Similarly I am sometimes drawn to people with strong emotions and feelings. And to spiritual people. Maybe in the hope that some of it might rub off onto me.

 

[joey_downunder]

I notice that there are quite a few Bible references in your recent posting. A good way to make sure that I open my Bible.

Have you been able to access the links to that ESV Bible website? Yes I have been giving them on purpose. I keep getting the impression I am not typing to a "true" non-believer.

When I became a believer, I did change my behaviour, embracing the kind of actions that you would expect from an active believer.

That was another impression that I got i.e. when you became a christian you were serious about it.

I am not sure that I changed my whole way of thinking, but I was able to try to see things from a Christian perspective, as a forgiven sinner. It did not bring me a personal relationship with God, though.

Don't you realise true atheists cannot see things from a christian perspective?!!! 2 Corinthians 4:3-6 . It sounds like your mind may have been literally enlightened by God. Ephesians 5:8-10

Verse 17 says that God wants a broken and contrite heart, a broken spirit. Isn’t that what I have been asking about all the time in this thread, about having a real conviction of sin? It is not just about feelings, it is about having a contrite heart.

I am glad that you found Psalm 51 interesting. Do you really think God cares so much if you personally experience actual feelings of contriteness? Do you think God understands your fairly unique predicament? Do you think God knows about the spiritual hunger in your heart (yes you definitely have one!)? Do you think God would have mercy on a wounded imperfect person who is weak and unsure in their faith? Matthew 12:20

I appreciate your attempt to explain to me what you meant when you wrote “faith in personal religious faith”. I am still unclear about it. But please, don’t try again to explain.

OK, I have to try to remember to type using more concrete terms. I think I find "thinking" in metaphors or images much easier than you seem to. But then you have a way more scientific mind.

A person can hear God in many ways. From what you have written, it appears that you do hear God, by which I mean that you have experience that you could describe as God contacting you or responding to you.

I don't want you to get the impression I'm sitting here getting thoughts out of the blue "go to this exact chapter and verse" and/or I'm opening the Bible and it falls open to the exact right place like some christians seem to do. I was trained in internet librarian search strategies. I know which keywords and terms to use. I had also read the Bible from when I was a child so I know which parts of the bible to look for certain topics, passages etc. Nothing exciting in the "God speaks to personally all the time" department. With the Bible it is the thinking part of me.

Examples are when you write about receiving a message when reading the Bible, and of things happening with perfect timing. Hearing God in these ways, if it really is hearing God, are examples of God responding.

Those types of things only happen in rare circumstances and when it's really important. You must be important then.

However, I am aware that there are many believers, some of them senior pastors, who claim that the only way to know God is through the Bible, saying that they have never experienced things such as answered prayers and divine guidance, and not expecting really to hear God until eternity.

If by divine guidance they mean they don't have an inner voice speaking to them all the time then NOW I agree with them. Pre-surgery I would have dismissed them as being closed-minded and quenching the Holy Spirit. However I am very surprised that believers can't take a step back and look at how things have happened. I am not just talking about prayer because if we're honest we know for our own good God doesn't answer some prayers. james 4:2-3
I am talking about people being able to look at what has happened in their lives and realising how God has been able to use those sometimes painful events to bless them and others. Maybe I am guilty of too much thinking in that department? Especially pastors - what would make them choose to join an underpaid, undervalued and overworked vocation unless they believed that they were called by God into that ministry?!!!! Not literally hearing the call out loud of course(!), just believing that was what they were meant to do with their life to feel fulfilled.

Some Christians say that God gave me a good mind. Other Christians have said that because I think too much I am going to find it difficult to accept God and to appreciate God, that intelligence is a barrier – even when I remind them of Paul and his letters.

Don't stop thinking!!!! I am a thinking person too, even though I have been choosing to type in my native "feeling personality" tongue. I am curious - did the people who said you had a good mind tend to be thinking people themselves?

I have a question. If God gave me a very good mind, did God also give me my very inadequate “heart”? There are many references in the Bible to having a pure heart, and doing things with all your heart, and only a few about using the mind. Having a very good mind and a very poor heart is not a very helpful combination when it comes to knowing God.

I don't get that impression at all. I think you seem to have a good heart. You may not have the feelings that other people experience but do you do the good that you are able to do? When confronting chief priests Jesus definitely shows which is the better option! matthew 21:28-32 And which part of you has to be transformed to learn God's will? romans 12:2 Which part of you is strongest?

I know that many Christians have told me about getting a message that spoke clearly to them. They often assume that I must have had a similar experience, and sometimes refuse to believe me when I say no.

Maybe God doesn't want you to experience experiences then? In a way you may be being protected by God. False experiences can be very deceptive and lead you off the straight-and-narrow road. Proverbs 4:14-15 I know that personally. It takes a LLOOOONNNGG time to retrace your steps and heal from bad stumbles. The times in my life that have appeared the most barren and desolate experience-wise actually often been times I was being protected from myself because of very jumbled and dysfunctional thinking patterns.

I do find interesting verses, of course, such as those from Psalm 51. But I would not describe it as receiving a message that spoke clearly to me.

But they've got you thinking - That is what is important!

I read those verses from Habakkuk but to me they do not say anything about medical conditions.

I was giving you an example of how some christians can read a verse that can appear general to outsiders but speaks to that christian on a deeper level that day when they need it most.

I am aware that for many Christians, whenever they see “word” in the Bible they assume that it is referring to scripture. No. In many cases in the Bible God’s word means just that – the words that God has spoken. Or sometimes it is a short way of saying that what God says is to be trusted.

I have learned from many good discernment and apologetics resources to make sure I look at words like "word" in context. You make a good point there.

I agree that a person’s decisions, choices and will are important. But, and it is a big but, I made a decision to serve God, I chose to ask God into my life and yet I still failed to find God or to have a relationship with God. That is why I am asking about the importance of having a conviction of sin. Not feelings, but in whatever way the Holy Spirit might choose to affect me.

If you had confessed your sins and done everything that you considered necessary to be a good christian, did you think of ways that you could be of service to God and merely asked in faith that His will be done? Like open the door for a certain activity and shut all the others? I am often struggling with that area, worrying and trying to figure out what I should be doing instead of just trusting God.

Jesus speaks about life more abundant. I am not familiar with the work of Joel Olsteen. What particular aspect were you thinking about when you asked if other Christians had spoken to me about their faith or mine?

I am relieved to read that. Olsteen is a very shallow teacher that teaches all about making your life the way you want it to be through you speaking good things and you being positive and if it doesn't work it's your fault. He has has been strongly criticised for never mentioning sin and hardly ever the Gospel itself. All fairy floss (is that cotton candy?) and no substance.

I am different. For me, my desire was to serve God in this life. And to do that I would need to get feedback from God so that I would know precisely how God wants me personally to serve.

You know objectively your strengths and weaknesses. God gave you an obviously very good and clear thinking mind. I am sure that you know your personal interests. What do you know most about and have the most experience in? Perhaps you think of a christian charity you could volunteer in? For example my husband's uncle was in the air force and he volunteers in sea rescues. A church friend was a nurse and she visited people in nursing homes. They were very practical people and they served God in the area they were best in. You said you could be calm even when everyone else was panicing - all types of emergency departments would probably love you!

Now, I have no spiritual awareness at all. That means that I am not aware of having a spirit. If it is a person’s spirit that lives on after the physical body dies, then I have no awareness of anything within me that is eternal. That could be why I have no interest in eternal life. Until my spirit, assuming that I have a spirit, is awakened, life after death will continue to be irrelevant for me.

That sort of makes sense now. Yes if you haven't experienced anything you consider to be spiritual it would be a foreign concept to you and therefore not a high priority for you at all.1 corinthians 13:9-12

Christianity is a package, with lots of blessings involved. Does it really matter that I am more interested in one part of the package while someone else is more interested in a different part? Thinking in terms of being different parts of the body, feet need shoes; hands need gloves.

No of course not. We are told that like us the church also need all parts of the body to survive. 1 corinthians 12:12-31

Similarly I am sometimes drawn to people with strong emotions and feelings. And to spiritual people. Maybe in the hope that some of it might rub off onto me.

They always say opposites attract. You are actually clarifying a lot of thoughts for me as well. I have trouble putting thoughts in order at times. I can't mentally juggle a lot at once like you probably can. Perhaps through me typing all this out you are serving God in your own way.

 

[losthope]

To joey down under,

Sorry it has taken me a while to reply; I have been away. You wrote this:
I keep getting the impression I am not typing to a "true" non-believer.

Well, I was a believer for about two years, but that was a long time ago.

That was another impression that I got i.e. when you became a christian you were serious about it.

Oh yes. Very much so. As strongly as most of the Christians who may read this, I expect.

Don't you realise true atheists cannot see things from a christian perspective?!!! 2 Corinthians 4:3-6 . It sounds like your mind may have been literally enlightened by God. Ephesians 5:8-10

I have never described myself as an atheist. I would say that I am an agnostic – not sure if there is a god, or not. And certainly not a person who knows God. I am not sure that the verses in 2 Corinthians describe me, because I am agnostic about all types of spiritual influence, and that includes any evil spiritual influence. If Paul is right in 2 Corinthians 4:4, it suggests that the evil one is able to prevent people from seeing and accepting the gospel, and this implies that the evil one is more powerful than God. If Paul is right (although I do not think that what he says here describes me) then there must be many people who God will find it impossible to reach and impossible to have a personal relationship with, people who are permanently lost. Is that really compatible with a gospel that claims to be for everyone?

Has my mind been enlightened by God? Not directly. But maybe my mind has been enlightened indirectly through what I have learned from the Bible and from other Christians.

Do you really think God cares so much if you personally experience actual feelings of contriteness?

Well, it was the possibility that God does care that I do not personally have a real conviction of sin that caused me to begin this thread. It is certainly something that several Christians have suggested to me, that I failed to become a real Christian because I did not truly repent because I did not have a real conviction of sin. I just do not know if that is why there was no response to my prayers from God. It is one possibility, a possibility that I am investigating.

There is no doubt that the Bible says that a contrite heart is important. So maybe it does matter very much. It is a possible explanation that is consistent with my experience. However, in one sense it is not a very hopeful explanation, because if I am constitutionally unable to have a conviction of sin and a contrite heart to the degree that God wants, then there is no hope of salvation.

Do you think God understands your fairly unique predicament? Do you think God knows about the spiritual hunger in your heart (yes you definitely have one!)? Do you think God would have mercy on a wounded imperfect person who is weak and unsure in their faith?

I would like to think that the answer to these questions is yes, that God does understand my situation. It is just that, after many years of searching, I seem to be as far from finding God as ever. My experience suggests the opposite, that God is not going to make any allowances for my inability to feel passionate about being a sinner.

I don't want you to get the impression I'm sitting here getting thoughts out of the blue "go to this exact chapter and verse" and/or I'm opening the Bible and it falls open to the exact right place like some christians seem to do. ... Nothing exciting in the "God speaks to personally all the time" department. With the Bible it is the thinking part of me. Those types of things only happen in rare circumstances and when it's really important. You must be important then.

No, I did not think it is something that happens all the time. Whether it is suddenly having a new understanding of a Bible verse, or some kind of inner voice, or any other type of response from God. But for many Christians it is something that happens occasionally, and they describe it as God showing them something important.

If God really did show you something important with regard to you answering my questions, then is it important? We do not know yet, because so far I have not yet grasped the appropriate spiritual truth.

Especially pastors - what would make them choose to join an underpaid, undervalued and overworked vocation unless they believed that they were called by God into that ministry?!!!! Not literally hearing the call out loud of course(!), just believing that was what they were meant to do with their life to feel fulfilled.

I wrote about some pastors who said that the only way God speaks to them is through the Bible, the general message of the Bible rather than any specific personal revelation. No doubt they do believe that the ministry is what they should be doing, and would have some way of describing their call to the ministry. I really admire their faith, because I know from my own experience that I was unable to sustain faith in those circumstances. But I still have doubts about whether or not they really know God.

Don't stop thinking!!!! I am a thinking person too, even though I have been choosing to type in my native "feeling personality" tongue. I am curious - did the people who said you had a good mind tend to be thinking people themselves?

Usually the people who have told me that I think too much are people who would describe themselves as having a simple faith and would use verses from the Bible to say that everyone needs a simple faith.

If you had confessed your sins and done everything that you considered necessary to be a good christian, did you think of ways that you could be of service to God and merely asked in faith that His will be done? Like open the door for a certain activity and shut all the others? I am often struggling with that area, worrying and trying to figure out what I should be doing instead of just trusting God.

Yes, I think that I did what you suggest. But there did not seem to be any doors opening or closing.

You know objectively your strengths and weaknesses. God gave you an obviously very good and clear thinking mind. I am sure that you know your personal interests. What do you know most about and have the most experience in? Perhaps you think of a christian charity you could volunteer in? For example my husband's uncle was in the air force and he volunteers in sea rescues. A church friend was a nurse and she visited people in nursing homes. They were very practical people and they served God in the area they were best in. You said you could be calm even when everyone else was panicing - all types of emergency departments would probably love you!

You are not the first person to say that if I put some effort into helping other people, it might bring me closer to God. My response is that for many years I have been doing just that, helping people in various ways. For example, in the next week I will be helping in a charity on at least three occasions. Not in a Christian charity, but in other charities, certainly. It has not helped me to find God.

 

[joey_downunder]

Hi losthope, I will type tomorrow or the day after but first I have got an ebook for you to read. I found it in one of my favourite theology book websites.

The great meaning of metanoia : an underdeveloped chapter in the life and teaching of Christ(1896)

Quote: "The literal meaning of "Metanoia," or,rather, the nearest expression to it in English, is "Change of Mind," a phrase too much worn by familiar use to be available as a rendering,but an idea capable of many equivalent variations in the English tongue. It will be more convenient, however, for our present purpose to employ the phrase as if its native force had not been thus impaired." (p.4)

Put your formal English thinking cap on or back on. That should be easy since you're already a Pom. It puts repentance in a totally different perspective for you and proves emotions are NOT mandatory as a part of becoming a true christian....

 

[saralynn]

Lost Hope
Your experiences and state of mind were so similar to my own that it is eerie. After an extended period of erosion, my faith finally faltered and collapsed when a friend of mine, whose life seemed to be an unending series of tragedies, killed himself. However, unlike you I was never a Christian, except in the broadest sense of the word. I was more attracted to the mystical revelations from a variety of religious traditions and saw how a golden thread of sacred and universal wisdom seemed to run through the varying creeds and doctrines. I spent most of my life striving for holiness and self-transcendence. The fact that I was denied any sort of revelatory experience myself was disappointing, but not troubling because I trusted in the words and deeds of others whose lives were transformed by God. However, this all ended abruptly in what I can only describe as an existential revelation, not of hope, but of despair. I suddenly knew that all my aspirations were based on hopes, dreams and illusions. I prayed, but the prayers floated up into a Universe devoid of spiritual warmth and I sank into a serious depression for almost two years.

It would please me to report that an angel came down and kissed my forehead, but, no such miraculous event occurred. My faith has not been restored to what it was before. However, I have come to terms with the loss of my convictions and have learned to live in a Universe that is filled with mystery, paradox and ambiguity. I have learned that faith is not primarily a matter of accepting or rejecting certain premises , but instead is a matter of basing our lives on trust and hope and recognizing that, if it is all a beautiful fantasy, it is a fantasy that reflects the highest ideals of humanity and the best that is within us. I am filled with doubt, but, despite that, I have chosen to act on my hopes and aspirations, in service to my fellow human beings and the God whose absence haunts me. If God exists, and I see no reason to doubt the possibility, then I believe, like Jesus, we are each called to incarnate the divine and transfigure reality by making a total gift of ourselves to love. IF we don’t do that and fall into the temptation of despair, life becomes as absurd as we fear it to be. If we succeed and enough of us are committed to fulfilling God’s promise, expressed in many ways through diverse cultures, we may really someday create “Earth as it is in Heaven"

You seem focused on Christianity, but, perhaps you have limited your options by focusing on the more traditional authors. Perhaps you might find contemporary authors like Andrew Harvery, Jacob Needleman or Karen Armstrong interesting. If your prefer the old fashioned variety, Evelyn Underwood and that broody, but profound, Kierkegaard might be intellectually stimulating. I’d recommend Dostoevski, but he would be probably too emotionally high strung for your taste. Evolutionary Christianity and Process Theology interesting.

I also recommend you read some good ole philosophy, like Marcus Aurileus, Emerson, and maybe Montaigne. If you are a brainiac type, you mght like Wittgenstein.

Buddhist writers are absolutely the best when it comes to psychology. As you probably know, Buddhism is not really a religion, but, the teachings are pragmatic, not dogmatic and prescriptive, not descriptive. Nothing is to be “attained”…everything is to be uncovered, recognized and realized. The mind, like an attachment on a vacuum cleaner, cleans itself. I love it and find many Buddhist authors quite insightful.

Anyway, hang in there. Believe in the Resurrection…your own.

 

[saralynn]

Oh dear! I goofed! I wrote my reply in word than copied. Oops! How do I fit this? Any way to edit?

Duh...how about using the edit button? Fixed it.

 

[joey_downunder]

Hi Saralynn, thanks for the opening to give a link related to existential depression or nihilism, a questioning of one's purpose if all we have is this life, what is truth and so on. NIHILISM by Eugene Rose Severe doubt is very painful in a way.

I have also read some Kierkegaard's quotes in this good book Provocations by Soren Kierkegaard His strength is how clearly and sincerely communicates how important an authentic faith is, how christians are supposed to have a personal faith in God and not just be a member of a church. The main weakness is that he focuses on feelings so much that thinking personalities may find his overemphasis experiences very off-putting.

Evelyn Underhill's books are very pro-mysticism and compare how mystics of all religions all seek to "feel at one with God" (in oversimplified term). Her writings were not at all helpful to me when I was trying to work out why I wasn't feeling God's presence any more.

As for your suggestion for reading some Buddhist works, Buddhism does sound like it has the best of the world's systems of morals and philosophies but it is missing the vital ingredient that only God can give- GRACE. Christianity can seem foolish to non-believers but we are not supposed to care about what they think, only what God thinks of us. 1 Corinthians 1:18-24

I read many psychology and psychoanalysis books in my long period of feeling cut off from God. The very best advice I ever got from them I now realise are modern paraphrases of Biblical advice (with lots of psychological terminology to make it "sound" purely from human wisdom alone). Careful study of God's word will bring true wisdom and change us as well.

I hope you grow stronger in your christian faith Saralynn. It has taken me a lot of time to grow spiritually and joining a good church this year has helped me even more.

 

[joey_downunder]

I am not sure that the verses in 2 Corinthians describe me, because I am agnostic about all types of spiritual influence, and that includes any evil spiritual influence. If Paul is right in 2 Corinthians 4:4, it suggests that the evil one is able to prevent people from seeing and accepting the gospel, and this implies that the evil one is more powerful than God.

What you just said shows why it is SO important to compare difficult passages with other passages that mention similar topics to make sure you haven't take it out of context and reach a totally different conclusion!
Compare James 1:13-15 .Who is responsible for our sin? When Jesus was tempted, who was the more powerful one? matthew 4:1-11 Who has to give permission to who to make a person sin - God or Satan? job 1 Who conquered death - Jesus or Satan? romans 6:1-10 Who will everyone worship - Jesus or Satan? Philippians 2:5-11 Who is defeated forever - Jesus or Satan? revelations 20:7-10

If Paul is right (although I do not think that what he says here describes me) then there must be many people who God will find it impossible to reach and impossible to have a personal relationship with, people who are permanently lost. Is that really compatible with a gospel that claims to be for everyone?

Predestination versus free-will is an area I really haven't worked through yet. Both seem to be true - perhaps it's an area that humans just won't know the answer until the next life?

Has my mind been enlightened by God? Not directly. But maybe my mind has been enlightened indirectly through what I have learned from the Bible and from other Christians.

God uses whatever is there in our life to get through to us. Sometimes God needs to use a sledgehammer to knock some sense into us.... others it may just be a whisper that we think is just from that person and not from God. But think about these proverbs: proverbs 16:1, 33, 19:21

Well, it was the possibility that God does care that I do not personally have a real conviction of sin that caused me to begin this thread. It is certainly something that several Christians have suggested to me, that I failed to become a real Christian because I did not truly repent because I did not have a real conviction of sin. I just do not know if that is why there was no response to my prayers from God. It is one possibility, a possibility that I am investigating......However, in one sense it is not a very hopeful explanation, because if I am constitutionally unable to have a conviction of sin and a contrite heart to the degree that God wants, then there is no hope of salvation.

I have reached the fifth chapter of that ebook now and I have said pretty much what it says the whole time.

I would like to think that the answer to these questions is yes, that God does understand my situation. It is just that, after many years of searching, I seem to be as far from finding God as ever. My experience suggests the opposite, that God is not going to make any allowances for my inability to feel passionate about being a sinner.

If God made you psalm 139 ,if God knows everything from beginning to end of time Isaiah 44:6-8 , surely He would know whether you are sincere whether you actually feel it or not? Are you willing to change how you view things to please God? Are you willing to change behaviour to do His will?

But for many Christians it is something that happens occasionally, and they describe it as God showing them something important.

The thing that has struck me during your conversation is how many good christians you have around you for support. Do you realise how blessed you are in having so many christians in your life ?!!! God must be speaking to you via them!!!! Some of us have literally no-one, not one person in my family is a christian, my husband is a non-christian, so for some of us God may be communicating with us in a more direct method than others like yourself because we would not be strong enough otherwise.

I wrote about some pastors who said that the only way God speaks to them is through the Bible, the general message of the Bible rather than any specific personal revelation. No doubt they do believe that the ministry is what they should be doing, and would have some way of describing their call to the ministry. I really admire their faith, because I know from my own experience that I was unable to sustain faith in those circumstances. But I still have doubts about whether or not they really know God.

Ultimately their salvation between them and God alone (just like yours), but an important thing that may reassure you is to read how Jesus does help us in telling us how to look at whether a teacher is from really from God or not. Matthew 7:15-20 Also apostles did the same. e.g. for elders Titus 1:5-9 , 1 Timothy 3:1-13 ; false teachers 2 peter 2 , 1 John 2:3-5, 3:4-10, 4:1-3

Usually the people who have told me that I think too much are people who would describe themselves as having a simple faith and would use verses from the Bible to say that everyone needs a simple faith.

Well there is a good and a bad side of being a thinker. It is good for a christian to seek to understand why they believe what they believe. That way it's not a mindless faith that is easily shaken when things happen that are not easily explained by merely quoting scripture. It is a bad thing when you keep on seeing every thing that the world uses to explain away Christianity as being a possible logical point of view and in the process forget that people people who seem to validly explain away religion often do not WANT to believe, rather than CANNOT believe.

You are not the first person to say that if I put some effort into helping other people, it might bring me closer to God......Not in a Christian charity, but in other charities, certainly. It has not helped me to find God.

I meant trust that you were serving God in your own special way. Please don't think you might earn a feeling relationship when you do enough good things. You are doing charity work that I never can because I cannot drive and my medicine makes me too tired to do that anyway. However I can type whenever I like during the day and do free Bible/christian apologetics reference work for genuine seekers (when I "feel" led to of course!)
I'll finish there for now. I want you to read that book. I found a lot more links but I want you to focus on repentance as being a change of mind towards God, repentance is NOT feeling remorseful enough to magically get a feeling relationship. With you and I a relationship with God means faith NOT feelings.