No “Election” in Old Testament

[DingDing]

DingDing,

Thanks for your interest. I am having trouble figuring out why people are talking about “election” in the Old Testament. The word “elect” does not appear in the OT and “election” does not appear in the OT or the Gospels in the NIV translation. It is well known that the Old Testament puts heavy emphasis on actions. Judaism today puts strong emphasis on actions, as opposed to beliefs.

Look at the Book of Job.

...

Hello,

In the Old Testament, God speaks of the people He has chosen (much discussion to be had here). I will claim that God wants all people to come to Him. The choice is now ours. How do we respond to Him? Did not God choose a "people"? Did all those "chosen" come to Him? In The Book of Matthew chapter 1 it says, "He will save His people from their sins." So, who are (or can be) His people, and how did (does) He save them?

 

[Dale]

Hello,

In the Old Testament, God speaks of the people He has chosen (much discussion to be had here). I will claim that God wants all people to come to Him. The choice is now ours. How do we respond to Him? Did not God choose a "people"? Did all those "chosen" come to Him? In The Book of Matthew chapter 1 it says, "He will save His people from their sins." So, who are (or can be) His people, and how did (does) He save them?

DingDing,

According to John 3:16, God’s people are whoever believes in Jesus Christ.

You mention the chosen people. I don’t see how God choosing Israel for a role in history has anything to do with salvation. We know that not all Jews were saved, even in Old Testament times. Just read the prophets. As a Methodist minister once told me, the problem is that the Jews thought that they had been chosen for special privilege, when God actually chose them for special service.

 

[Dan Perez]

Hello,

In the Old Testament, God speaks of the people He has chosen (much discussion to be had here). I will claim that God wants all people to come to Him. The choice is now ours. How do we respond to Him? Did not God choose a "people"? Did all those "chosen" come to Him? In The Book of Matthew chapter 1 it says, "He will save His people from their sins." So, who are (or can be) His people, and how did (does) He save them?

And in Rom 11:7 and Rom 9:11 is ELCTION of Israel .

dan p

 

[John Mullally]

According to the Doctrine of Election, God elects those who will be saved.

Is the Doctrine of Election Biblical, or is it something invented by theologians?

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (ISBE) under Election:

“The word is absent from the Old Testament …”


The Old Testament is more than half the Bible.
The ISBE is very conservative, favorable to creationism and predestination.
It’s interesting that the ISBE can find no mention of “election” in the Old Testament.

Theological “election” deals with God’s choices. For instance, the Bible refers to an election of:

• Christ (Isaiah 42:1; Luke 9:35; 1 Peter 2:6)
• National Israel (Deuteronomy 7:6; Isaiah 45:4)
• Jerusalem (1 Kings 11:13)
• Disciples (John 13:18; John 15:16)
• Christians (Ephesians 1:1-3; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14)

In Calvinism, election is labeled as Unconditional Election, in terms of God having decreed a total plan of all things from eternity, which includes a bifurcation of humanity into elect and non-elect camps, that is, fixed classes of sheep and goats. Individuals comprising the elect camp are unconditionally chosen by God for salvation prior to the Genesis creation, the basis of which being known only to Him, while the non-elect camp comprises those whom God never intended to spend eternity with Him in Heaven and thus passed by for salvific graces.

Among non-Calvinist Evangelicals, election is labeled as Conditional Election, in which there are primarily two different views:

(1) The Wesleyan-Arminian “foresight of faith” model of Election and,​

(2) the Corporate model of Election.​

In the Wesleyan model, by God’s eternal foreknowledge, all whom He found that will ever positively respond to the gospel and persevere in the faith, He foreordained as members of “the elect.” This view relies heavily on Romans 8:29 and 1 Peter 1:1-2.

As for the Corporate model (my view), the foundation is that Jesus Christ is the Elect One, resulting that all who come to be “in Him,” that is, identified with Him in His body and as His bride, jointly share in His election, and hence believers in Him may rightly also be called “the elect” or favored. In other words, Corporate Election is a class election of Christ’s family, and for His part, Christ would like to see everyone in it, which He made possible at Calvary (1 Timothy 2:1-6). This view has strong support from Ephesians 1:3, in which God has predestined every spiritual blessing “in Christ.”

Comparing and contrasting, Election in Calvinism means God choosing unbelievers, that is, of the elect kind, unto the gift of faith. Election in non-Calvinism means God choosing Christians, that is, unto salvation, service and blessings. Does God choose us or do we choose God? The answer is that God chooses to show His favor on Christians and we choose whether or not to become a Christian. God, for His part, desires for all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4), but He does not force Himself on any.

 

[Dale]

And in Rom 11:7 and Rom 9:11 is ELCTION of Israel .

dan p

What does the "election" of a nation have to do with a supposed "election" of individuals?
We know that Israel being God's chosen people doesn't mean that every Israelite was saved. Just read the prophets, or the books of history to know that isn't true. Many of Israel's Kings worshiped pagan gods and idols. Were they saved by being part of Israel, or leaders of Israel? Obviously not.

Do Predestinationists read anything besides the Book of Romans?

 

[Brightfame52]

Ps 65:4

4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

This speaks to individual election unto Salvation !

 

[anetazo]

The election are in old testament. Some people have spirit of slumber and can't understand.
Israel was physical kingdom. Jesus real kingdom is in another Dimension.

Jesus told pilate, my kingdom is not of this world.

The election are individuals. Abraham, issac, Jacob, moses, Samson, Deborah, David, Gideon, hosea, Daniel, Jeremiah, samuel, the list continues.
Genesis 25:23
Deuteronomy 7:7
Deuteronomy 9:6
7;7
9:7
God made covenant with abraham and later with Moses. Bottom line. It was a physical kingdom.

Why??

Because every one must be born one time in the flesh, John chapter 3. Jesus already knew Israel would reject Him. God knows His children.

Yes, Israel is Christian nation. Most people have Free will.
God's election don't have free will.

God already knows lot of His children are close minded. Some people have spirit of stupor.

The position for Elect can't be volunteered for.
Isaiah 61:6. And you will be called priests of the Lord, you will be named ministers of our God.
Old testament. These are God's Elect. During millennium they are priests in temple of Jesus.

ISAIAH 65:9. AND I WILL BRING FORTH SEED OUT OF JACOB, AND OUT OF JUDAH AN INHERITOR OF MY MOUNTAINS; AND MINE ELECT SHALL INHERIT IT, AND MY SERVANTS SHALL DWELL THERE..
God's election are predestined, chosen before foundation of the world. The election will be priests during millennium. The election have destiny. To reign with Jesus for thousand years.

The millennium is the kingdom of christ. Jesus and the election will reign during millennium.

Ezekiel chapter 44. The election are called Zadok during millennium.

The election were judged in first earth age by God. God has destiny for His election.

Mystery of God is hidden through the ages. Because, those who are spiritually blind wont accept the truth.

Matthew chapter 13. The mystery of God is hidden from people. But revealed to the election. The apostles and prophets are God's Elect.

Isaiah chapter 6. God has holy seed who passes the truth from generation to generation. Get the picture. Thier God's Elect. Jesus will bring His kingdom at the 7th trump.

God's election will be priests during millennium.
I documented this.

 

[Dale]

The election are in old testament. Some people have spirit of slumber and can't understand.
Israel was physical kingdom. Jesus real kingdom is in another Dimension.

Jesus told pilate, my kingdom is not of this world.

The election are individuals. Abraham, issac, Jacob, moses, Samson, Deborah, David, Gideon, hosea, Daniel, Jeremiah, samuel, the list continues.
Genesis 25:23
Deuteronomy 7:7
Deuteronomy 9:6
7;7
9:7
God made covenant with abraham and later with Moses. Bottom line. It was a physical kingdom.

Why??

Because every one must be born one time in the flesh, John chapter 3. Jesus already knew Israel would reject Him. God knows His children.

Yes, Israel is Christian nation. Most people have Free will.
God's election don't have free will.

God already knows lot of His children are close minded. Some people have spirit of stupor.

The position for Elect can't be volunteered for.
Isaiah 61:6. And you will be called priests of the Lord, you will be named ministers of our God.
Old testament. These are God's Elect. During millennium they are priests in temple of Jesus.

ISAIAH 65:9. AND I WILL BRING FORTH SEED OUT OF JACOB, AND OUT OF JUDAH AN INHERITOR OF MY MOUNTAINS; AND MINE ELECT SHALL INHERIT IT, AND MY SERVANTS SHALL DWELL THERE..
God's election are predestined, chosen before foundation of the world. The election will be priests during millennium. The election have destiny. To reign with Jesus for thousand years.

The millennium is the kingdom of christ. Jesus and the election will reign during millennium.

Ezekiel chapter 44. The election are called Zadok during millennium.

The election were judged in first earth age by God. God has destiny for His election.

Mystery of God is hidden through the ages. Because, those who are spiritually blind wont accept the truth.

Matthew chapter 13. The mystery of God is hidden from people. But revealed to the election. The apostles and prophets are God's Elect.

Isaiah chapter 6. God has holy seed who passes the truth from generation to generation. Get the picture. Thier God's Elect. Jesus will bring His kingdom at the 7th trump.

God's election will be priests during millennium.
I documented this.

Anetazo: “The apostles and prophets are God's Elect.”

Anetazo, thanks for joining the discussion. I will have have to challenge this statement.

Are the Apostles always Elect, chosen for heaven before the world was made?

Jesus replied, “The one who has dipped his hand into the
bowl with me will betray me.
The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But
woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be
better for him if he had not been born.”

Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, “Surely not
I, Rabbi?” Jesus answered, “Yes, it is you.” [Or “You
yourself have said it”]
Matthew 26:23-25 NIV

Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet
one of you is a devil!”
(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one
of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)
John 6:70-71 NIV

Judas wasn’t one of the Elect, so we can’t say that those who served as Apostles are predestined to heaven.

 

[Dale]

The election are in old testament. Some people have spirit of slumber and can't understand.
Israel was physical kingdom. Jesus real kingdom is in another Dimension.

Jesus told pilate, my kingdom is not of this world.

The election are individuals. Abraham, issac, Jacob, moses, Samson, Deborah, David, Gideon, hosea, Daniel, Jeremiah, samuel, the list continues.
Genesis 25:23
Deuteronomy 7:7
Deuteronomy 9:6
7;7
9:7
God made covenant with abraham and later with Moses. Bottom line. It was a physical kingdom.

Why??

Because every one must be born one time in the flesh, John chapter 3. Jesus already knew Israel would reject Him. God knows His children.

Yes, Israel is Christian nation. Most people have Free will.
God's election don't have free will.

God already knows lot of His children are close minded. Some people have spirit of stupor.

The position for Elect can't be volunteered for.
Isaiah 61:6. And you will be called priests of the Lord, you will be named ministers of our God.
Old testament. These are God's Elect. During millennium they are priests in temple of Jesus.

ISAIAH 65:9. AND I WILL BRING FORTH SEED OUT OF JACOB, AND OUT OF JUDAH AN INHERITOR OF MY MOUNTAINS; AND MINE ELECT SHALL INHERIT IT, AND MY SERVANTS SHALL DWELL THERE..
God's election are predestined, chosen before foundation of the world. The election will be priests during millennium. The election have destiny. To reign with Jesus for thousand years.

The millennium is the kingdom of christ. Jesus and the election will reign during millennium.

Ezekiel chapter 44. The election are called Zadok during millennium.

The election were judged in first earth age by God. God has destiny for His election.

Mystery of God is hidden through the ages. Because, those who are spiritually blind wont accept the truth.

Matthew chapter 13. The mystery of God is hidden from people. But revealed to the election. The apostles and prophets are God's Elect.

Isaiah chapter 6. God has holy seed who passes the truth from generation to generation. Get the picture. Thier God's Elect. Jesus will bring His kingdom at the 7th trump.

God's election will be priests during millennium.
I documented this.

Anetazo: “The apostles and prophets are God's Elect.”

Here is an example from the Old Testament. The Book of Numbers tells us that Balaam is a prophet. Balaam talks to God and God answers Balaam.


God came to Balaam and asked, “Who are these men with
you?”
Balaam said to God, “Balak son of Zippor, king of Moab,
sent me this message:
‘A people that has come out of Egypt covers the face of the
land. Now come and put a curse on them for me. Perhaps
then I will be able to fight them and drive them away.’”
But God said to Balaam, “Do not go with them. You must
not put a curse on those people, because they are blessed.”
Numbers 22:9-12 NIV


At the same time, the New Testament is gives us scathing condemnation of Balaam.

Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have
rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been
destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.
Jude verse 11

Balaam is also condemned in II Peter 2:15-16 and Revelation 2:14.

Since Balaam is a prophet, or was once a prophet, we cannot say that prophets are predestined to heaven. It is possible for a prophet to fall into error, even fatal error.

 

[Clare73]

According to the Doctrine of Election, God elects those who will be saved.
Is the Doctrine of Election Biblical, or is it something invented by theologians?
International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (ISBE) under Election:
“The word is absent from the Old Testament …”
The Old Testament is more than half the Bible.
The ISBE is very conservative, favorable to creationism and predestination.
It’s interesting that the ISBE can find no mention of “election” in the Old Testament.

The specific word may be absent, but according to Paul the event is not absent (Ro 9:10-12).

See post #12.

 

[Mark Quayle]

According to the Doctrine of Election, God elects those who will be saved.

Is the Doctrine of Election Biblical, or is it something invented by theologians?

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (ISBE) under Election:

“The word is absent from the Old Testament …”


The Old Testament is more than half the Bible.
The ISBE is very conservative, favorable to creationism and predestination.
It’s interesting that the ISBE can find no mention of “election” in the Old Testament.

The specific word may be absent, but according to Paul the event is not absent (Ro 9:10-12).

See post #12.

Isaiah 42:1 “Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles." Strong's Hebrew 972 "chosen".

The same word is found in 13 occurrences in the OT: 2 Samuel 21:6; 1 Chronicles 16:13; Psalm 89:3; Psalm 105:6, 43; Psalm 106:5, 23; Isaiah 42:1; Isaiah 43:20; Isaiah 45:4; Isaiah 65:9, 15, 22; —And that's just Strong's #972. There are many other related words in the OT.

If I didn't know better, I'd think someone was trying to sell us a bill of goods.

 

[Aaron112]

You make it sound like only one person in a million is one of the elect.

Consider unvetted info found online in under 0.01 seconds >
(if true would show that only one in a billion, not a million, ...eh? )
neverthirsty.org › bible-qa › qa-archives › question › how-was-the-world-populated

How was the world populated before the flood? | NeverThirsty​

On May 13, 2023 it was estimated by the Worldometers.info that the world population was over 8.03 billion. [1] That is a great number of people but it is not a difficult number to reach. A conservative calculation reveals that the world's population by the time of the flood would have easily exceeded 8.03 billion.

 

[Brightfame52]

Anetazo: “The apostles and prophets are God's Elect.”

Here is an example from the Old Testament. The Book of Numbers tells us that Balaam is a prophet. Balaam talks to God and God answers Balaam.


God came to Balaam and asked, “Who are these men with
you?”
Balaam said to God, “Balak son of Zippor, king of Moab,
sent me this message:
‘A people that has come out of Egypt covers the face of the
land. Now come and put a curse on them for me. Perhaps
then I will be able to fight them and drive them away.’”
But God said to Balaam, “Do not go with them. You must
not put a curse on those people, because they are blessed.”
Numbers 22:9-12 NIV


At the same time, the New Testament is gives us scathing condemnation of Balaam.

Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have
rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been
destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.
Jude verse 11

Balaam is also condemned in II Peter 2:15-16 and Revelation 2:14.

Since Balaam is a prophet, or was once a prophet, we cannot say that prophets are predestined to heaven. It is possible for a prophet to fall into error, even fatal error.

God indicated quite clearly He had a elect remnant according to grace in OT times here Rom 11:1-6

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Those seven thousand men God told Elijah He had reserved to Himself, they were of the election of grace !

 

[Aaron112]

According to the Doctrine of Election, God elects those who will be saved.
Is the Doctrine of Election Biblical, or is it something invented by theologians?
International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (ISBE) under Election:
“The word is absent from the Old Testament …”

Without the "Doctrine of Election" , God is free to do as He Pleases.
With the "Doctrine of Election", comes quarreling, strife, confusion, arguments, and perhaps worse - mis-direction ? (as it seems, without specifics, throughout this thread)

It’s interesting that the ISBE can find no mention of “election” in the Old Testament.

That appears not to be a qualifier for if something is right or wrong , true or false though.
There is no mention, for most obvious contra-example, of "trinity" in the Bible at all. Yet everyone finds it in the Bible, for centuries.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Without the "Doctrine of Election" , God is free to do as He Pleases.
With the "Doctrine of Election", comes quarreling, strife, confusion, arguments, and perhaps worse - mis-direction ? (as it seems, without specifics, throughout this thread)

—With the "Doctrine of Election", God is free to do as He pleases.
—Without the "Doctrine of Election", comes quarreling, strife, confusion, arguments and mis-direction, and comes people thinking eternal destiny hinges on the fickle will of humans

 

[Aaron112]

"What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! For He says to Moses:

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy,

AND He hardens whom He wants to harden.

One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?”

But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?”h 21Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?

What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known,

bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction?"

 

[Mark Quayle]

"What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! For He says to Moses:

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy,

AND He hardens whom He wants to harden.

One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?”

But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?”h 21Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?

What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known,

bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction?"

Agreed. So how does this fit what you said about the Doctrine of Election, earlier? (Post 34)

Without the "Doctrine of Election" , God is free to do as He Pleases.
With the "Doctrine of Election", comes quarreling, strife, confusion, arguments, and perhaps worse - mis-direction ? (as it seems, without specifics, throughout this thread)

Your Romans 9 quote demonstrates God's freedom to do as He pleases, and that he elects whomever he pleases to elect. THAT is the doctrine of election, in the short.

 

[Dale]

Is there specific mention of the Trinity in the OT?

Is there specific mention of the "sovereignty" of God in the OT?

Is there specific mention of atonement for sin by the Messiah in the OT?

Is there specific mention of the Bride of the Messiah in the OT?

Is there specific mention of the termination of the animal sacrifices in the OT?

Why you pickin' on "election"?

You ask silly questions at times.



Clare: “Is there specific mention of the Trinity in the OT?”

The word “trinity” does not appear in the OT or the NT. This is one reason we need theologians.

Clare: “Is there specific mention of the "sovereignty" of God in the OT?”

The phrase Sovereign Lord appears quite a number of times in the OT.
By my count, “Sovereign Lord” appears 282 times in the OT, using the NIV translation.
It appears about 200 times in Ezekiel.

The sovereignty of God does appear in the OT, and since theologians make a big deal of “election,” it is reasonable to ask if “election” is in the OT.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The sovereignty of God does appear in the OT, and since theologians make a big deal of “election,” it is reasonable to ask if “election” is in the OT.

Why is it reasonable, by that standard (if sovereignty is not)? Is not the OT word translated "chosen" the same word as what is translated "elect"?

 

[Clare73]

You ask silly questions at times.

Are you sure about that?
Are you able to correctly answer them?

Clare: “Is there specific mention of the Trinity in the OT?”
The word “trinity” does not appear in the OT or the NT. This is one reason we need theologians.
Clare: “Is there specific mention of the "sovereignty" of God in the OT?”
The phrase Sovereign Lord appears quite a number of times in the OT.
By my count, “Sovereign Lord” appears 282 times in the OT, using the NIV translation.
It appears about 200 times in Ezekiel.

The sovereignty of God does appear in the OT,

Those are transliterations. It does not appear in the original languages.

and since theologians make a big deal of “election,” it is reasonable to ask if “election” is in the OT.

Simplistic uninformed objection, when we find "elect" there.

Theologians likewise make a bid deal of "Trinity," which is neither in the OT nor the NT.