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Nihilism

juvenissun

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Even from a religious perspective, believing that your life has an ultimate meaning doesn't mean that your particular actions have any meaning. If your Earthly life is just a sort of trial before God decides whether you go to Heaven or Hell, and if the Universe is going to be destroyed in "fervent heat", then very few of the things that you do in your day to day existence matter unless you're a member of a religious order.

I honestly feel less nihilistic than I did when I was religious. Sure, some day I'm going to die, but hopefully that's not going to be any time soon. Until then, I can see the beauty in the world, and I don't have to believe that it's all just here as a place for humanity to undergo trials until God destroys it and we get to see the real deal.

Confucius said: we do not know the meaning of life, how could we know the meaning of death?

Confucius is a humanist. In fact, his idea could be revised in this way:

Once we know the meaning of death, then we know the meaning of life.

Our life on the earth is certainly MUCH MORE than just a trial, if we know what we will do in the afterlife.
 
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juvenissun

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I don't like that I'm not a billionaire. *shrug*


eudaimonia,

Mark

Speechless, are you?
Just a friendly reminder, you really should think about it seriously.

If our life is only what we experienced on the earth, then the human life is really a big joke. It is no better (or much worse) than that of a pig. (A pig's life is happier than yours, believe it or not)
 
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Eudaimonist

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Just a friendly reminder, you really should think about it seriously.

If a fact is unpleasant, I nevertheless accept that it is a fact. No one gets everything that they might desire out of life. Wishes do not make reality.

If our life is only what we experienced on the earth, then the human life is really a big joke. It is no better (or much worse) than that of a pig.

If life is really a big joke, then it is a big joke. Full stop.

But my perception of life is different from yours. To me, life is something precious, like a brilliant jewel that is utterly unique.

As for pigs:

It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied; better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied. And if the fool, or the pig, are of a different opinion, it is because they only know their own side of the question. The other party to the comparison knows both sides.
-- John Stuart Mill

In any case, comparisons are irrelevant. Meaning in life isn't a contest. If a pig actually could have a preferable life to myself, that would not affect me in the slightest. Good for the pig. I'm doing fine.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Freodin

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Speechless, are you?
Just a friendly reminder, you really should think about it seriously.

If our life is only what we experienced on the earth, then the human life is really a big joke. It is no better (or much worse) than that of a pig. (A pig's life is happier than yours, believe it or not)
I just don't understand this perspective. Perhaps you could try to explain it to me.

Why is life / something meaningless or "a big joke" when it is not eternal?

Just now I had a wonderful stew of beans and potatoes and chicken. I was cold and hungry... now I am warn and satisfied. I will be cold and hungry again in the future... and I will most likely forget that I had this certain meal.

But that does not make that meal meaningless or a joke.
 
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Received

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Eternity ain't got nothin' on life unless you're appreciating the moment you have.

"There is no other reality than present reality, so that, even if one were to live for endless ages, to live for the future would be to miss the point everlastingly." -- Alan Watts
 
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Received

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I just don't understand this perspective. Perhaps you could try to explain it to me.

Why is life / something meaningless or "a big joke" when it is not eternal?

Just now I had a wonderful stew of beans and potatoes and chicken. I was cold and hungry... now I am warn and satisfied. I will be cold and hungry again in the future... and I will most likely forget that I had this certain meal.

But that does not make that meal meaningless or a joke.

But you're still German, so how ungrouchy can your existence be regardless of your meal? ;)
 
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Standing_Ultraviolet

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Confucius said: we do not know the meaning of life, how could we know the meaning of death?

Confucius is a humanist. In fact, his idea could be revised in this way:

Once we know the meaning of death, then we know the meaning of life.

Our life on the earth is certainly MUCH MORE than just a trial, if we know what we will do in the afterlife.

That's an interesting statement, and I understand that in most Christian theology, life is seen as more than just a trial to see who will go to Heaven and who will go to Hell, but the actual lived experience is sometimes different from the more intellectual understanding. I was describing more the way that I felt about it, rather than any formal theological understanding of the meaning of life.

Obviously that's not how everyone feels. A lot of people draw a lot more of a sense of meaning from Christian theology and may even experience a feeling of meaninglessness if they lose their faith (and in this case, I do mean that they've actually lost something). I just had the opposite feeling. As it is now, I feel very much connected to the world around me, in a sense that doesn't involve any weird New Age woo. It's more like what Carl Sagan meant when he said that we are all the remains of destroyed stars than what a "yogi" who doesn't know a word of Sanksrit and who has never left Scranton means when he says that we're "all one". Before, I felt like everything around me was pretty much pointless, and I had a hard time getting any joy from studying it (and an even harder time enjoying the studying of humanity, which was problematic since it's kind of totally my job). Now, I see beauty in everything, because it's so permanent and cosmic, and I'm so fleeting.
 
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juvenissun

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That's an interesting statement, and I understand that in most Christian theology, life is seen as more than just a trial to see who will go to Heaven and who will go to Hell, but the actual lived experience is sometimes different from the more intellectual understanding. I was describing more the way that I felt about it, rather than any formal theological understanding of the meaning of life.

Obviously that's not how everyone feels. A lot of people draw a lot more of a sense of meaning from Christian theology and may even experience a feeling of meaninglessness if they lose their faith (and in this case, I do mean that they've actually lost something). I just had the opposite feeling. As it is now, I feel very much connected to the world around me, in a sense that doesn't involve any weird New Age woo. It's more like what Carl Sagan meant when he said that we are all the remains of destroyed stars than what a "yogi" who doesn't know a word of Sanksrit and who has never left Scranton means when he says that we're "all one". Before, I felt like everything around me was pretty much pointless, and I had a hard time getting any joy from studying it (and an even harder time enjoying the studying of humanity, which was problematic since it's kind of totally my job). Now, I see beauty in everything, because it's so permanent and cosmic, and I'm so fleeting.

Everything on the earth should be very significant to a Christian. If a Christian has a good sense of after life, then every second of his earthly life should extremely precious. Just like you would visit a place for just one day and will never go back again. How would you use that one day to learn that place?
 
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juvenissun

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I just don't understand this perspective. Perhaps you could try to explain it to me.

Why is life / something meaningless or "a big joke" when it is not eternal?

Just now I had a wonderful stew of beans and potatoes and chicken. I was cold and hungry... now I am warn and satisfied. I will be cold and hungry again in the future... and I will most likely forget that I had this certain meal.

But that does not make that meal meaningless or a joke.

You don't see it because you do not have the right prospective. You need to know that human is so much superior than any other forms of life on the earth. In the history of life evolution, this won't happen without a very strange (wonderful) reason.

Can you see the big joke now if a human life ended the same way as an animal life?
 
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juvenissun

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If a fact is unpleasant, I nevertheless accept that it is a fact. No one gets everything that they might desire out of life. Wishes do not make reality.



If life is really a big joke, then it is a big joke. Full stop.

But my perception of life is different from yours. To me, life is something precious, like a brilliant jewel that is utterly unique.

As for pigs:

It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied; better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied. And if the fool, or the pig, are of a different opinion, it is because they only know their own side of the question. The other party to the comparison knows both sides.
-- John Stuart Mill

In any case, comparisons are irrelevant. Meaning in life isn't a contest. If a pig actually could have a preferable life to myself, that would not affect me in the slightest. Good for the pig. I'm doing fine.


eudaimonia,

Mark

I thought you would strongly oppose that statement. I think to be satisfied is the most important thing to you, be a fool or not.
 
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Received

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Well, if we took the fool or Socrates and only spoke of the single moment of being unhappy or happy, I kind of tend to think that it's better being the fool. But if we're talking about a person across time being satisfied or dissatisfied, it's much better being Socrates, because he has the fuller type of character that minimizes his odds of being dissatisfied for all instances of satisfaction or dissatisfaction in his life. The fool, OTOH, is much more often prone to dissatisfaction, and even his satisfaction might have a misreading quality to it -- in the sense that he might *think* he's satisfied but he really isn't, much how a good alcoholic will say he's totally "happy" when people ask him how he's doing.
 
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Standing_Ultraviolet

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Everything on the earth should be very significant to a Christian. If a Christian has a good sense of after life, then every second of his earthly life should extremely precious. Just like you would visit a place for just one day and will never go back again. How would you use that one day to learn that place?

I never felt that way, but if you do, that's good :) I mean that in an entirely sincere way.
 
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now faith

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Those who believe in an afterlife claim to have a back-up system. Believing something doesn't make it so.

From a logical perspective,there is nothing to gain from Atheism.

There is also a possibility of making a eternal mistake.

If the Christian dies and goes into nothingness,he has not lost what never existed.

But it is the Atheist who risks all eternity for a nano second,in the grand scale of time.
 
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Eudaimonist

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I thought you would strongly oppose that statement. I think to be satisfied is the most important thing to you, be a fool or not.

There are different forms of satisfaction. There's a big difference between the physical satisfaction of sex, and the intellectual satisfaction of reading a novel or a work of philosophy, or for that matter contemplating the meaning of one's life.

The latter cuts closer to the essence of what we are as human beings. If the only source of satisfaction one has is the former, one would be better off as a pig, because one has missed out on something of being human.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Eudaimonist

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From a logical perspective,there is nothing to gain from Atheism.

Not true. If I am more rational and have more integrity as an atheist, I have gained something.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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essentialsaltes

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From a logical perspective,there is nothing to gain from Atheism.

There is also a possibility of making a eternal mistake.

If the Christian dies and goes into nothingness,he has not lost what never existed.

What if the Christian dies and is sent to spend an eternity of suffering and torment in Tartarus for blaspheming the Olympian gods?

Everyone 'risks' eternal mistakes from hundreds of religions.
 
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grasping the after wind

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Are you so disposed as to be primarily interested in your own wellbeing? And if your own wellbeing is your primary interest then I would argue that my previous point applies even more so, since you are less likely to be able to secure your own wellbeing if you deliberately and maliciously seek to undermine the wellbeing of others.

I am not so disposed, but I do not see why what you propose is necessarily so for anyone that was so disposed. Can you prove your assertion?
 
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grasping the after wind

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I guess that for someone who doesn´t *want* the world to be a better place (a position you seem to be taking here) there is no convincing reason why to attempt to make it a better place.

My position is that cliches are not proof of anything. One can say "we need to make the world a better place" as much as one pleases but saying a thing does not give it authority. In order to make it a valid statement we ought to have the ability to show that it is true. All I asked for was a convincing reason based upon logic and fact rather than either emotion or cliches, why a person should not put their own selfish interests first.

I think that seriously asking such questions requires a person to deny empathy being a part of the human condition. Imo, basing our worldviews, approaches and considerations on the idea that all humans are sociopaths (while actually they amount roughly to but 1-2% of the population) doesn´t make much sense.

Asking a question merely requires an inquiring mind and the use of language. I do not believe anyone but a strawman made a claim about all humans being sociopaths, but it makes as much sense as a basis for our worldview as the idea that all humans are benevolent.
 
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