Nihilism

[Tucansam93]

As you can see I'm not affiliated with any religious/secular group and I would just like some feedback on what I think. I'm directing this towards the atheism crowd though anyone can comment. Let's try and keep this respectful please.

My belief is that if one is to take an atheistic worldview I believe that the only inherently true belief system they could take is a sort of nihilism. The human perspective is only a product of evolution and random events thus creating no actual purpose to life. All perspectives of rights and morality are based on human conditioning and emotion which have no value externally from the perception of the human. One might say that we can create our purpose and live a fulfilling life though in the end it was all inherently meaningless because of this illusion of perception. If there is no God or being(s) watching over us, all crimes or good deeds will remain neutral. In the end there will be no reparations for all those who suffered or justice served for those who chose to induce suffering.

There is no direction to go, right or wrong, or person to be. You are here not by choice but you must go through it like everyone else.

I do not believe in this view it's just that I feel if I were ever to be an atheist that I would feel I would have to take on this view. I'm not trying to force this upon anyone and assert that I am totally right here but rather just putting my view on this subject out there to see what others think.

 

[essentialsaltes]

The human perspective is only a product of evolution and random events thus creating no actual purpose to life.

I'm not sure about your reasons, but that's right. There is no actual (i.e. objective) purpose to life.

One might say that we can create our purpose and live a fulfilling life

That's right. The end.

though in the end it was all inherently meaningless because of this illusion of perception.

If my purpose of my life satisfied me, and I had a fulfilling life, and then vanished (with my consciousness) when I died, then it will have done all it ever needed to do.

If there is no God or being(s) watching over us, all crimes or good deeds will remain neutral. In the end there will be no reparations for all those who suffered or justice served for those who chose to induce suffering.

That's why we have judges and courts and a justice system -- to exact justice and reparations. If the gods are going to mete out perfect justice in the afterlife, why should we fallible humans bother to even try?

 

[Chesterton]

I agree with everything in your OP. But it raises two big questions: "Do you like it (the human condition)", and if not, "why not"?

 

[juvenissun]

I'm not sure about your reasons, but that's right. There is no actual (i.e. objective) purpose to life.



That's right. The end.

If my purpose of my life satisfied me, and I had a fulfilling life, and then vanished (with my consciousness) when I died, then it will have done all it ever needed to do.

That's why we have judges and courts and a justice system -- to exact justice and reparations. If the gods are going to mete out perfect justice in the afterlife, why should we fallible humans bother to even try?

This is a BIG if.
Everyone knows it is not possible.

 

[Eudaimonist]

My belief is that if one is to take an atheistic worldview I believe that the only inherently true belief system they could take is a sort of nihilism.

That's not my belief. While I agree that there is no divine purpose to human life, that doesn't mean that life doesn't have purpose in terms of its own nature.

The human perspective is only a product of evolution and random events thus creating no actual purpose to life.

I don't see how that necessarily follows.

All perspectives of rights and morality are based on human conditioning and emotion which have no value externally from the perception of the human.

No, they aren't. My perspective on rights and morality aren't just statements of emotion, and are too much the product of philosophical thought to be mere "conditioning".

One might say that we can create our purpose and live a fulfilling life though in the end it was all inherently meaningless because of this illusion of perception.

You are assuming here that it's all about perception, and not about action.

If there is no God or being(s) watching over us, all crimes or good deeds will remain neutral.

To whom? They are certainly not neutral to me. It matters a great deal to my life and well-being whether I live in the anarchic world of the Road Warrior or not.

In the end there will be no reparations for all those who suffered or justice served for those who chose to induce suffering.

Perhaps, but so what? Injustice does not imply that right and wrong aren't applicable.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[juvenissun]

That's not my belief. While I agree that there is no divine purpose to human life, that doesn't mean that life doesn't have purpose in terms of its own nature.



I don't see how that necessarily follows.



No, they aren't. My perspective on rights and morality aren't just statements of emotion, and are too much the product of philosophical thought to be mere "conditioning".



You are assuming here that it's all about perception, and not about action.



To whom? They are certainly not neutral to me. It matters a great deal to my life and well-being whether I live in the anarchic world of the Road Warrior or not.



Perhaps, but so what? Injustice does not imply that right and wrong aren't applicable.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Take a look of hundreds of beautiful soap bubbles flying in the air. Everyone is different and everyone has its internally consistent value. YOU are one of them.

After they bursted up, where is YOUR value?

 

[Received]

If objective values exist, handed down by God, the goal is to line up with these values.

If objective values don't exist, the goal is to find one's own set of values. How do we find values? By our experience with the world according to what we find desirable, according to that which brings about happiness. Even removing the question of God, happiness is a state that more or less can be "captured" by certain expressions of character. Therefore, nihilism on a subjective level doesn't exist, even if on an objective one there are no values handed down by God.

 

[essentialsaltes]

This is a BIG if.
Everyone knows it is not possible.

Sure, but it's no different for theists.

 

[juvenissun]

Sure, but it's no different for theists.

Sure. But theists has a solid back-up system, atheists have nothing.

Yah, this is an accidentally good analogy. The value of individual human is like data and structure built up on a computer disk. When the disk is irrecoverably broken, atheists lose everything, but theists have a back up, or an even better copy.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Sure. But theists has a solid back-up system, atheists have nothing.

Those who believe in an afterlife claim to have a back-up system. Believing something doesn't make it so.

 

[Received]

Believing in the afterlife to the exclusion of all other values is exactly what a seductive picture of nihilism looks like for so many people. "No life now, only later; your life now is to hope for life later."

You can even imagine evangelicals with this type of empty soteriology to be people who spread nihilism in doctrinal form. Give up your appreciation of life in the present moment for life in the future, in the name of Jesus!

 

[quatona]

My belief is that if one is to take an atheistic worldview I believe that the only inherently true belief system they could take is a sort of nihilism.

Well, that doesn´t follow - unless you equate "not created by a God" to "nothing/not existing".

 

[juvenissun]

Those who believe in an afterlife claim to have a back-up system. Believing something doesn't make it so.

My system back itself up every so many minutes or hours. But I never check it and I never have chance to know whether it really works or not. But I still invest in the backup system and hope it would work.

Faith to God is approximately of a similar nature. If you don't back up, you may be OK, but may be not.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

As you can see I'm not affiliated with any religious/secular group and I would just like some feedback on what I think. I'm directing this towards the atheism crowd though anyone can comment. Let's try and keep this respectful please.

My belief is that if one is to take an atheistic worldview I believe that the only inherently true belief system they could take is a sort of nihilism. The human perspective is only a product of evolution and random events thus creating no actual purpose to life. All perspectives of rights and morality are based on human conditioning and emotion which have no value externally from the perception of the human. One might say that we can create our purpose and live a fulfilling life though in the end it was all inherently meaningless because of this illusion of perception. If there is no God or being(s) watching over us, all crimes or good deeds will remain neutral. In the end there will be no reparations for all those who suffered or justice served for those who chose to induce suffering.

There is no direction to go, right or wrong, or person to be. You are here not by choice but you must go through it like everyone else.

I do not believe in this view it's just that I feel if I were ever to be an atheist that I would feel I would have to take on this view. I'm not trying to force this upon anyone and assert that I am totally right here but rather just putting my view on this subject out there to see what others think.

When I was a Christian, this resembled my preconceptions regarding atheism as well. I am no longer a Christian, or a theist of any sort, but I'm certainly not a nihilist either. You don't need to invoke the supernatural to genuinely experience love, to stand in awe of nature's wonders, or to try living a good life. The world lies before you. Accept it as is and, if you can, make it a better place.

 

[Eudaimonist]

The value of individual human is like data and structure built up on a computer disk. When the disk is irrecoverably broken, atheists lose everything, but theists have a back up, or an even better copy.

I don't lose everything. After I am dead, I might no longer exist in the present, but for the rest of eternity my past will always have happened. I will always have lived my life. My life will always have had value.

In the present moment, my life has value. It doesn't matter to me that one day I will be dead. I will not be a ghost crying "Boo hoo! My non-existence is meaningless!"

Sure, my life is finite. So what? It has value when it matters.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Redac]

I might qualify as a nihilist (hard to say; haven't thought about it too much), but I wouldn't pretend that it's synonymous with atheism or that other atheists "must" take such a stance.

 

[juvenissun]

I don't lose everything. After I am dead, I might no longer exist in the present, but for the rest of eternity my past will always have happened. I will always have lived my life. My life will always have had value.

In the present moment, my life has value. It doesn't matter to me that one day I will be dead. I will not be a ghost crying "Boo hoo! My non-existence is meaningless!"

Sure, my life is finite. So what? It has value when it matters.


eudaimonia,

Mark

This could be used perfectly to justify anything which will cause unhappiness.

 

[Eudaimonist]

This could be used perfectly to justify anything which will cause unhappiness.

I'm not sure what you mean. Please explain your thought-process.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[grasping the after wind]

When I was a Christian, this resembled my preconceptions regarding atheism as well. I am no longer a Christian, or a theist of any sort, but I'm certainly not a nihilist either. You don't need to invoke the supernatural to genuinely experience love, to stand in awe of nature's wonders, or to try living a good life. The world lies before you. Accept it as is and, if you can, make it a better place.

Why would I do that? What if I prefer to make it a worse place for anybody but me? Can you give me a convincing reason why I shouldn't put my own selfish interests ahead of everything else?

 

[Paradoxum]

I agree there is no objective purpose. I'd also agree that morality has no objective value, but I would say there is more to it than conditioning and emotion. I would say that morality is action based on true perspective.

So I don't label myself a nihilist because I take stronger positions on morality.

My belief is that if one is to take an atheistic worldview I believe that the only inherently true belief system they could take is a sort of nihilism. The human perspective is only a product of evolution and random events thus creating no actual purpose to life. All perspectives of rights and morality are based on human conditioning and emotion which have no value externally from the perception of the human. One might say that we can create our purpose and live a fulfilling life though in the end it was all inherently meaningless because of this illusion of perception. If there is no God or being(s) watching over us, all crimes or good deeds will remain neutral. In the end there will be no reparations for all those who suffered or justice served for those who chose to induce suffering.

There is no direction to go, right or wrong, or person to be. You are here not by choice but you must go through it like everyone else.