NFP for "Spacing"

[Miss Shelby]

Debi, Debi.... please.. no one is attacking you everyone has said they aren't mad at you in the first place. You're getting way too upset over nothing.

Michelle

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

That makes 2 posts now which someone possibly hinted at the Sympto-Thermal method of NFP not being natural... is this some sort of common thought?
That seems absurd to me on many levels. I'll wait for validation of my concern before defending my position that sympto-thermal is perfectly licit.

I responded to someone saying that NFP was not natural, by explaining how we practice- not to insinuate other methods were somehow less natural or respectful, sorry if that came out wrong ...

There is sadly, much debate and animosity at times between adherents to particular methods of NFP-- I just feel like it is best for a couple to find a method that best suits them, and their needs... as different methods have different strenghths and weaknesses....

 

[geocajun]

Can we all just have a group hug?!

This thread has been a very valuable discussion, and I would like to see the discussion continue about NFP, and the discussion end about grammer, and the other stuff...

 

[geocajun]

There is sadly, much debate and animosity at times between adherents to particular methods of NFP-- I just feel like it is best for a couple to find a method that best suits them, and their needs... as different methods have different strenghths and weaknesses....

wow! I havent been privy to those sort of arguments... I guess I am missing out!
That is bizarre considering there are relatively so few folks who actually use NFP - we could all join a club

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

grammer

Uh , isn't that spelled grammar???

wow! I havent been privy to those sort of arguments... I guess I am missing out!
That is bizarre considering there are relatively so few folks who actually use NFP - we could all join a club

It just goes to show us that Satan will inspire us to devisiveness even in areas where we are trying to be faithful!!

 

[geocajun]

Uh , isn't that spelled grammar???

how embarassing to misspell the word "grammar"

 

[Benedicta00]

geo,

To me the sympto method is the most effective one out there because it gives you all the back ups but I can't use it because there is no way I could get the sleep that is needed to take a proper temp. reading. I like the Billings method, it is way easy.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

how embarassing to misspell the word "grammar"

It was meant as a joke-- since you were begging us to not focus on such things... forgive me!! I'm one of those people who think puns are like the highest form of comedy!!

Michelle-- that's me, too- we use Billing because it's easy and I just wouldn't be consistent about taking my temp. I also am very comfortable with it and have confidence in the method. I have friends whose personalities and needs(like hypo-thyroidism) demand that they have more information-- and they prefer sympto-thermal!

 

[marciadietrich]

For Rhetor's sake, his comment on taking temperature not being natural does show another difficulty in the discussions. Just because something isn't chemical doesn't automatically equal natural in the way most people think of the term. Also, confusing is that natural law doesn't equate exactly to what you'd find in nature, yet natural law relies on people being able to almost instinctively or naturally know something is a truth.

So when NFP says it is natural they mean 1) not chemical and 2) not in opposition to Catholic natural law teaching. So a condom isn't chemical, but it violates natural law and therefore is considered evil. It is natural (as in nature) to have sex when you feel the urge (and for women the urge is usually strongest around ovulation) but not considered against natural law to avoid having sex by mutual consent (because we would do that for many reasons such as the kids are awake and it isn't sinful to put off having sex), but is considered against natural law to go ahead and have sex while using a barrier method because that is always wrong to do. It isn't automatically wrong to put off having sex for various reasons, because that is something that happens by nature and is not opposed to natural law.

Probably clear as mud.

Marcia

 

[geocajun]

geo,

To me the sympto method is the most effective one out there because it gives you all the back ups but I can't use it because there is no way I could get the sleep that is needed to take a proper temp. reading. I like the Billings method, it is way easy.

I think I want to learn more about the billings method myself. Shannon pointed me to it the other day, but I haven't had time to investigate it.
My wifes chart is soo all over the place for sympto-thermal that the CCL instructors who have used it for 20 yrs couldn't make heads or tails of it so we had to send it to the central office in the hopes that a dr. there could help us figure out whats going on...

 

[geocajun]

It was meant as a joke-- since you were begging us to not focus on such things... forgive me!! I'm one of those people who think puns are like the highest form of comedy!!

I thought it was hilarious

 

[Benedicta00]

I think if you are new and learning the temp method should be used until you learn enough about your body and how it works.

 

[ProCommunioneFacior]

I haven't heard of the Creighton method, what is that exactly?

 

[geocajun]

I haven't heard of the Creighton method, what is that exactly?

its a cervix-only method from what I understand. The women, or husband checks her cervex for the width of its opening and mucus each day. It there is mucus and/or its open - she is fertile.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

You are mentally open to the possibility if it does happen, if it happens it is God’s will in your heart and mind. Those who contracept are not open and are doing it this just so it won’t happen. If it happens to them, they will probably feel that NFP failed or that the world will soon come to a end because their pregnant.

NFP and barrier methods of ABC have the same failure rate in practice (11-15%). If a couple using a barrier method of ABC has the same open mind as to the possibility as an NFP couple, why is ABC intrincially evil ?

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

well lets try to contrast it - maybe that will help.

In judging the moral quality of any act, we must determe the object, intention, and circumstance.

In order the any act to be a morally good act, it must have been a good object, and good intention.

The object of sex has two aspects to it - that of unity and that of procreation.
If either of these aspects is not there, then the object is bad.

If someone rapes another, the sexual aspect of procreation may be present, but the aspect of unity is not, thus regardless of intention, the object is in itself bad.

If someone has sex but has used a contraceptive, the sexual aspect of unity may be there, however the sexual aspect of procreation is not, thus regardless of intention, the object is in itself bad.

If someone has sex, and has not taken any step to block the unity or the procreative aspect, then we can begin to look at the intention for moral quality.

If the intention now is that of removing the procreative aspect, or the unitive aspect, then we have a bad intention, thus the act is still a bad act.

Again, in order to be a good act, the object and intention must be good.


Did that help?

No.

Look, I understand intentionality. What I don't understand is how NFP gets NRPers around intentionity. That why I ask, exactly how, what are the operational aspects of NFP, that allow you to intentionally step around the reproductive aspect of sex without breaking the rules. And, specifically, why do those rules apply only to NFPers.

Like I've said before, it seems to me a barrer is a barrier: latex, chemical, timing, their all the same. I know NFP can be using as a contraceptive, what I can't figure out is how is CAN'T be used as a contraceptive.

Follow ?

 

[Benedicta00]

NFP and barrier methods of ABC have the same failure rate in practice (11-15%). If a couple using a barrier method of ABC has the same open mind as to the possibility as an NFP couple, why is ABC intrincially evil ?

Very easy reason, because God made the act not to be altered or compromised physically by removing any aspect from it, this is what condoms do. Like I said already we are talking about two separate issues here. Condoms are wrong for a different reason even if you are open to life.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

No.

Look, I understand intentionality. What I don't understand is how NFP gets NRPers around intentionity. Thats why I ask, exactly how, what are the operational aspects of NFP, that allow you to intentionally step around the reproductive aspect of sex without breaking the rules. And, specifically, why do those rules apply only to NFPers.

Like I've said before, it seems to me (by Humane Vitae) that a barrer is a barrier: latex, chemical, timing, they're all the same. I know NFP CAN be use as a contraceptive, what I can't figure out is how it can be used an NOT be a contraceptive.

Follow ?

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Very easy reason, because God made the act not to be altered or compromised physically by removing any aspect from it, this is what condoms do. Like I said already we are talking about two separate issues here. Condoms are wrong for a different reason even if you are open to life.

But, by using NFP as intented you ARE removing the reproductive aspects of it by avoiding sex during fertile times of the month so how is NFP moral ?

 

[Benedicta00]

Charlie,
Was that directed to me? If so then maybe I need to be more blunt. Condoms are wrong because it is morally wrong to place a physical barrier, a thing, between you are your spouse during the act. Is that more clear?