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NFP for "Spacing"

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Caedmon

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Well maybe I'm wrong. I'm just saying how I feel about it. If it's really what the Church teaches, then I'll study it some more. I would be willing to do it if something serious was going on, but it would still make me sad, because I love life. And I think that that's the way it should be. NFP shouldn't be something you use for an extra new flashy car and be mr. and mrs. happy yay-we-got-a-new-sedan. It should be something that you don't look forward to, because you want to have babies, but something that you will do to avoid tragedy and extreme hardship.
 
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Shelb5 said:
To all those who think NFP is a loophole,

If you think it is a loophole than what? Do you think that we are to have child after child with no regard for the cross that God gives us that may render that not possible for the time being or eve indefinite, or do you think we can contracept artificially as we please?

I have asked the question before but no one provided an answer or an opinion. I'll re phrase it, what do those who think NFP being a loophole think about God making the women's body just the way He did? I mean men are fertile all the time but women are not, why do you think He did that? Did He make man fertile all the time so he can use condemns during the women’s fertile period and or did he make men fertile all the time so a woman can take some chemical or use a device to change when she is fertile? Or do you think He made a women infertile at times so it can all be up to chance if she may conceive on any given occasion or not?

For those who believe the latter, I leave you with this, the mother from Texas who suffered greatly and significantly from mental illness and ended up in a psychotic episode killing her 5 children. her Husband did not believe in any “contraception” at all either.

The are legitimate reasons to space children, postpone a pregnancy for a indefinite amount of time. If one’s spouse life was seriously in jeopardy if she were to have a child year after year, would it be good and holy if she were to ignore that, keep having children and die, leaving her living children with out a mother?

There is a great difference in becoming pregnant with out being at risk and then having something go wrong and choose to give your life for the life of a child, but yet another to test the situation by saying if God wills, it will be fine when God has let you know, there is grave danger involved.

You all must understand that it is not God but the fallen world we live in that can render the circumstance and situations that would make children not possible for a legitimate reason, we live in a imperfect fallen world.
Humanae vitae gives the best answer. A husband must be attentive to his wife, and her needs; not use her for a baby machine or sex machine.

Humanae vitae said:
If therefore there are well-grounded reasons for spacing births, arising from the physical or psychological condition of husband or wife, or from external circumstances, the Church teaches that married people may then take advantage of the natural cycles immanent in the reproductive system and engage in marital intercourse only during those times that are infertile, thus controlling birth in a way which does not in the least offend the moral principles which We have just explained. (20)

Neither the Church nor her doctrine is inconsistent when she considers it lawful for married people to take advantage of the infertile period but condemns as always unlawful the use of means which directly prevent conception, even when the reasons given for the later practice may appear to be upright and serious. In reality, these two cases are completely different. In the former the married couple rightly use a faculty provided them by nature. In the latter they obstruct the natural development of the generative process. It cannot be denied that in each case the married couple, for acceptable reasons, are both perfectly clear in their intention to avoid children and wish to make sure that none will result. But it is equally true that it is exclusively in the former case that husband and wife are ready to abstain from intercourse during the fertile period as often as for reasonable motives the birth of another child is not desirable. And when the infertile period recurs, they use their married intimacy to express their mutual love and safeguard their fidelity toward one another. In doing this they certainly give proof of a true and authentic love.
 
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Benedicta00

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boughtwithaprice said:
Humanae vitae gives the best answer. A husband must be attentive to his wife, and her needs; not use her for a baby machine or sex machine.

Exactly, because of the world in which we live in, even though it may be a nice thought to have baby after baby, for some couples it is not medically or financially possible to have one child after the other and it would be sinful for a husband and a wife to not respect that.

I know a couple who last time I was in touch who just gave birth to #8, the mother and father are into their 40's, it seems to be working fine for them and I know of some who can not even have any. We have to respect what's going on and realize that a women does put her life on the line every time and that has to be discerned- it would be a sin not to. It is not wrong to respect the life of the mother in a manner that is moral, that respects life all around.

Paul’s' words come to mind again, with "Be well balanced, your advisory seeks whom he may devour." It's not God's will that we live in the extreme. To use no prudence at all.
 
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Benedicta00

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Caedmon said:
Well maybe I'm wrong. I'm just saying how I feel about it. If it's really what the Church teaches, then I'll study it some more. I would be willing to do it if something serious was going on, but it would still make me sad, because I love life. And I think that that's the way it should be. NFP shouldn't be something you use for an extra new flashy car and be mr. and mrs. happy yay-we-got-a-new-sedan. It should be something that you don't look forward to, because you want to have babies, but something that you will do to avoid tragedy and extreme hardship.

That would be exactly why you would abstain, because you do love life, we must respect all people’s lives and balance the choice to have children in that context. It would be selfish to expect a woman to have children when doing that just may kill her.

I do understand the financial issue is very subjective and there are many gray areas and probably the majority who use the money issue isn’t doing so realistically but the danger of mental illness, or death is something objective.
 
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LongingForLight

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I've only read the first few posts and the last few posts. Here's my situation and decision.

I am engaged to be married. When we are married, we will not be in a financial situation where we can support a child, barring winning the lottery or God showering us with a surprising amount of undeserved grace in the form of the material/financial goods needed to support a child. We will both either still be in school or have just graduated and still have a lot of college loans. I have started charting my cycles so we can use NFP effectively when we are married.

Honestly, we would probably be able to support one single child right after marraige, one way or another, if we didn't use NFP. The child wouldn't have many toys, wouldn't have a large bedroom, wouldn't have a yard to play in - but it would have life. We would be up to our ears in debt, but what is that to the value of a child? Yet I still choose NFP, and claim that I will not be contracepting. Why? Because by delaying this first child, I provide for a future where I will be more likely to support more children.

If I have a child as soon as we marry, I will most likely not be able to get a job in my industry (software engineering). The initial delay due to my pregnancy will put me behind the industry right after college, and convincing someone to hire me at that point, in this economy, will be hard, not to mention take time away from my child. My husband-to-be has significantly less education than I, and will likely not be able to earn as much money as I will. His expected average income with his degree is probably about 20,000 - 30,000 dollars below mine. This means it will take us longer to pay off debts, especially with a little one to provide for. We will not be able to support a second child for years, possibly five or six. We will then barely be able to support ourselves for a while longer, and will likely have a period of years before our third child. We will be unable to tithe or donate money to others as well.

On the other hand, if I postpone pregnancy and work in industry for a few years, I will be able to pay off my college debt within a year, even if I earn 10,000 below the average income for someone out of college with the degree I will have (I go to an unusually good school, so I actually can hope to receive above the average a little). If we avoid unnecessary expenses such as a car (not necessary with the great bus system in this area) before we have children and focus on saving most of our money, we would be able to comfortably support a child in a year, look into starting the process of buying a house with enough space for a large family, buy a minivan for taking all of the kids to school and ball games (buses aren't as practical for large families), and still be able to support a second child very shortly thereafter (maybe immediately! and twins do run in my family . . .). Plus we will likely have more flexibility in our parenting options and be more likely to afford one of us staying home with the children full-time. A delay of two years could mean many more children in the long run.

How can this desire to ultimately have a larger family be called contraceptive? Worst case, my reasoning is faulty. Yet could one honestly say I have *grave* reason to use NFP, in the most extreme sense of the word grave? My life would not be in danger, nor would my child's. Yet I sincerely believe that postponing the first child does the greatest service to life. I hesitate to presume that God will provide no matter what, especially after seeing my own Catholic parents divorce (marraige was annulled) after seven children because my mother was diagnosed with schizophrenia, declared an unfit mother, and was not allowed to be in the same household as her children and seeing various other trials in my family arising from unplanned pregnancies. I believe it was St. Ignatius Loyola who said, "Pray as though everything depended on God, but work as though everything depended on you." Doesn't a similar sentiment apply to using prudence to determine whether life and God will ultimately be better served by having children now or delaying for a time?

Is NFP overused? Yes. Without a doubt, some people see it as Catholic bith control. This mentality is not good or healthy. But there are non-life threatening reasons to use it to space children, and I would imagine that finances are a common and very real reason for spacing children, even if finances are also a common excuse. Obviously, buying that third car probably isn't necessary, unless you have twenty children who won't fit into less than three cars :) But wanting to be able to support additional children after this one seems to be a healthy reason to delay. And hey, if God really wants you to have children, there's always room for miracles with NFP - the uterus isn't made hostile to the child, or God's Will.

Also, NFP is different from ABC because it requires more sacrifice. You are saying, "God, I realize that I cannot make the sacrifice involved in giving myself to a child just yet, so I will sacrifice the pleasure of sexual union for a period of time to avoid this other inprudent sacrifice." Not the same thing as the ABC-user, who is saying (at best), "God, I realize that I cannot make the sacrifice involved in giving myself to a child just yet, so I will take this pill/use this piece of rubber/ insert this piece of metal inside me / etc. to make it more likely that when I enjoy sexual union with my spouse during the fertile period we will not conceive a child." I think that anyone can sense a fundamental difference between these two statements. A varient on the contracepting side that is different from the one stated before but is still common is this: "God, I don't want to deal with the difficulties of another child right now, so I'm going to contracept to make sure that I can have the pleasure of sex with my spouse during the fertile period as well as the infertile period without having to take on another child". This is even more obviously anti-life, or at least not pro-life.

This is my (very wordy) take on things. :) God bless everyone, there have been some great posts on this thread. I'm going to go read some more of them.

-Ethel
 
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LongingForLight said:
I've only read the first few posts and the last few posts.


Also, NFP is different from ABC because it requires more sacrifice. You are saying, "God, I realize that I cannot make the sacrifice involved in giving myself to a child just yet, so I will sacrifice the pleasure of sexual union for a period of time to avoid this other inprudent sacrifice." Not the same thing as the ABC-user, who is saying (at best), "God, I realize that I cannot make the sacrifice involved in giving myself to a child just yet, so I will take this pill/use this piece of rubber/ insert this piece of metal inside me / etc. to make it more likely that when I enjoy sexual union with my spouse during the fertile period we will not conceive a child." I think that anyone can sense a fundamental difference between these two statements. A varient on the contracepting side that is different from the one stated before but is still common is this: "God, I don't want to deal with the difficulties of another child right now, so I'm going to contracept to make sure that I can have the pleasure of sex with my spouse during the fertile period as well as the infertile period without having to take on another child". This is even more obviously anti-life, or at least not pro-life.

This is my (very wordy) take on things. :) God bless everyone, there have been some great posts on this thread. I'm going to go read some more of them.

-Ethel

Did you read my quote from Humae vitae, the encyclical from Pope Paul VI?
It says basically what you are saying:) The desire to avoid children is the same in NFP and ABC, but the situations are different. NFP enhances love and sacrifice, ABC promotes degradation and objectification IMO.


Humanae vitae said:
If therefore there are well-grounded reasons for spacing births, arising from the physical or psychological condition of husband or wife, or from external circumstances, the Church teaches that married people may then take advantage of the natural cycles immanent in the reproductive system and engage in marital intercourse only during those times that are infertile, thus controlling birth in a way which does not in the least offend the moral principles which We have just explained. (20)

Neither the Church nor her doctrine is inconsistent when she considers it lawful for married people to take advantage of the infertile period but condemns as always unlawful the use of means which directly prevent conception, even when the reasons given for the later practice may appear to be upright and serious. In reality, these two cases are completely different. In the former the married couple rightly use a faculty provided them by nature. In the latter they obstruct the natural development of the generative process. It cannot be denied that in each case the married couple, for acceptable reasons, are both perfectly clear in their intention to avoid children and wish to make sure that none will result. But it is equally true that it is exclusively in the former case that husband and wife are ready to abstain from intercourse during the fertile period as often as for reasonable motives the birth of another child is not desirable. And when the infertile period recurs, they use their married intimacy to express their mutual love and safeguard their fidelity toward one another. In doing this they certainly give proof of a true and authentic love.
 
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LongingForLight

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Not only did I read your quote, I've actually read through Humanea Vitae :)

My post was aimed more at any people who were saying that NFP should almost never be used, and financial reasons are mostly bogus, and a little at those who didn't see why NFP is different. I did a lot of research on this subject around the time I first started posting here at OBOB, since I was struggling with the church's teachings on ABC. NFP seemed like ABC to me at first, and I still have trouble saying why they are different. However, I *do* believe that they are different, now, and I don't think it's just brainwashing :p And charting is useful even without using it for preventing an imprudent pregnancy. I won't go into details here, since I might embarress the gentlemen ;)

Incidentally and off-topic, at my NFP class there was one brave single man who attended - not engaged, not even dating. He wanted to know what is involved with NFP so he could discuss it intelligently with his female coworkers. Now, *that* is a guy who will have a lucky wife someday. Not as lucky as me, of course - I can't wait to marry Bjorn! ;)
 
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LongingForLight said:
Not only did I read your quote, I've actually read through Humanea Vitae :)

My post was aimed more at any people who were saying that NFP should almost never be used, and financial reasons are mostly bogus, and a little at those who didn't see why NFP is different. I did a lot of research on this subject around the time I first started posting here at OBOB, since I was struggling with the church's teachings on ABC. NFP seemed like ABC to me at first, and I still have trouble saying why they are different. However, I *do* believe that they are different, now, and I don't think it's just brainwashing :p And charting is useful even without using it for preventing an imprudent pregnancy. I won't go into details here, since I might embarress the gentlemen ;)

Incidentally and off-topic, at my NFP class there was one brave single man who attended - not engaged, not even dating. He wanted to know what is involved with NFP so he could discuss it intelligently with his female coworkers. Now, *that* is a guy who will have a lucky wife someday. Not as lucky as me, of course - I can't wait to marry Bjorn! ;)

I like NFP because it gets me to know my wife better. I am more in tune with her cycles, and pay her more attention; therefore I understand her needs better. I have only been back in the Catholic church for nine months. My wife and I have been using NFP for four months. I can honestly say that we have never been happier. Our relationship is much more fulfilling. We have two children, but she does not want any more. I won't force her to change her mind. 12yrs of marriage, and it has never been better.:)

Oh, and you can't embarass me............I am a doctor............but the other gentlemen I don't know about:D
 
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LongingForLight

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boughtwithaprice said:
Oh, and you can't embarass me............I am a doctor............but the other gentlemen I don't know about:D

lol, well, it's for their sake I won't go into details, but let's just say that there is a certain uncomfortable time each month for women, and with NFP you can guess within a day of when that time starts, even if you have irregular cycles. This means you can start taking two painkillers a day (morning and night) the two days before, and feel far more comfortable (Apparently Ibuprofen something of a cumulative effect? - my doctor recommended this to me once, but at the time I never knew when I would need to start taking painkillers because of pretty irregular cycles, so I couldn't use it). This month is the first time I haven't been curled in a ball for about two or three hours waiting for the painkillers to do their thing. And there are some other things about my body that I've learned, and some other changes I can predict better. So even single women have a reason to use NFP techniques. It's not just for spacing! It's also useful if you're trying to get pregnant, if you want to know if you are pregnant (works sooner and better than a test), and for any woman who just wants to know what the heck's going on with her hormones.

My fiance might insist on using condoms after we get married . . . I need to start a thread on this to see if the proper response is to allow him to use them or insist on abstinence, once I get a chance to see if it was ever answered in a previous thread . . . but even if he uses them and I allow it, I'm going to insist on using NFP as well. More effective, and the benefits you mentioned too.
 
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geocajun

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my wife just found out that the sympto-thermal method is not going to work for us - she has to go get some blood work done because her hormones are more all over the place than a normal womans are :(
I think I will be chopping alot of wood in the interim.. this could take a while to figure out.
:cry:
 
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geocajun

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proud2bcatholic said:
geo,

Will the Creighton or the Billings Ovulation work for you two?


LongingforLight,

Have you discussed NFP with Bjorn? What are his thoughts about it now?
I know the Creighton method will not as her hormones will throw the matter off for that, but I am not sure about billings - Shannon?
 
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ShannonMcCatholic

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Billings may work... it has worked for me through two breastfeeding ammenoreah periods... which is pretty hormonally wacko..

geo-- have you sought out an NFP only doctor?? You can find one close to you at One More Soul.. as most doctors just want to throw a woman on the pill whenever her "hormones" are in play. Also check out the book Fertility, Cycles, and Nutrition by Marilyn Shannon-- often a woman's cycles being out of whack is the result of an evironmental or nutritional issue! Prayers to you all!!

Billings is just identifying the presence of fertile mucous, or a woman's individual signs of infertility, or fertility... my gut instinct is that it should work, as you discover her individual fertility patterns. I'v eknow some women with really wacky cycles that have conceived with Billings, when they had been hitherto unable to conceive!
 
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Benedicta00

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geocajun said:
my wife just found out that the sympto-thermal method is not going to work for us - she has to go get some blood work done because her hormones are more all over the place than a normal womans are :(
I think I will be chopping alot of wood in the interim.. this could take a while to figure out.
:cry:

Not really geo. The billing can work for anyone as I understand it. Also you can count 10 days backwards from the first day of the cycle and this is a guaranteed infertile period as long as there are no other signs of fertility. But you might not want to take my word, after all I’m pregnant. ;)
 
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Benedicta00

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Shannon,

I wish there was a pro life "Catholic" doctor I could find. All the doctors I have had look at me like I'm some kind of religious fanatic. The one I currently have who I do trust is very competent and is taking every precaution there is to reduce any risk is trying to convince me of having the tubes tied because it is becoming a reality that this one will be the last.
 
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LongingForLight

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Well, since he attended the NFP classes with me . . . and I kept him up late last night yet *again* *trying* to get him to clarify his position on BC after marraige . . . yeah, we've talked :) He doesn't feel comfortable with NFP, and his reasons are really interesting. He doesn't like it because you're not *doing* anything to prevent pregnancy. It's funny, because he understands how NFP is different from ABC better than I do! I mean, from what I've heard that is the exact reason why the church believes that NFP is not immoral (in some circumstances). However, he *finally* stated clearly what his position is on "Will you use NFP if the other choices are limited, by what I am willing to use, to being total abstinence after marraige until we can support children?" I got a yes. He takes his spoken word very seriously, so sometimes getting a straight answer out of him can be very difficult. If I didn't love him so much, I'd be rolling my eyes right now ;)
 
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geocajun

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well the thing is (I dont want to get too graphic) she always has mucus, so external observations do not work for us, and checking her cervix is not working because her hormones have it open/shut almost sporadically.
Her temperature is all over the place, but it does actually shift 4/10th of a degree when she is fertile, but that is not very helpful for us because, her cycles are not trendable. She tends to be 20-40 days apart, and its a roll of the dice each time.

CCL's central office told her that she badly needs to find a doctor and given the extremely strange results of her chart, they are almost positive she will need natural hormones. We are contacting our NFP instructors to find out if they know any good NFP only doctors around here.
Her diet is good, but she does not take vitamins, and CCC said that may help...
we'll just have to see a doctor and go from there...
 
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