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Right, that's why I have degrees in Philosophy and Education from a secular institution--because it's my Kryptonite. NOT!! (Anyway, that's all I'm going to say; we can haggle on some other thread ... some time in the future.)
2PhiloVoid
Right, that's why I have degrees in Philosophy and Education from a secular institution--because it's my Kryptonite. NOT!! (Anyway, that's all I'm going to say; we can haggle on some other thread ... some time in the future.)
2PhiloVoid
Do you consider yourself a biblical fundamentalist?
Same here.I don't know. What would the accumulative evidence of my history of posts here at CF make you believe about me?(That's it; I'm only responding to Bethany from this point on.)
Who are these people?
She is trying to leave a shelter? Where did you gather this? What shelter?
Who is herding someone? What do you mean by herding?
Primarily you so far in this thread. Philo was at least more cautious in his cautioning, saying that her exploration might be good and might be bad. Your condemnation of knowledge for its own sake as a vanity is exactly the deplorable attitude I was describing.
"I am a life long believer, grew up in a Charismatic environment, pretty sheltered, and have been surrounded by and raised in that type of Christian environment for most of my life."
I was employing a metaphor. Do you need it explained further?
Hi all! This is my first post here on the forums.I am a life long believer, grew up in a Charismatic environment, pretty sheltered, and have been surrounded by and raised in that type of Christian environment for most of my life. Missionary organizations, Bible schools, Christian music only... you name it, I fit that mold. However I've recently been challenged, and I want to learn new skills based on what I've recently been exposed to: I want to learn critical thinking, skills in logic, how to care about and examine evidence and consider evidence and not just "belief", fallacies in thinking, what they are and how to avoid them... It's all brand new to me, like a new language. I realize I've been surrounded mostly by people who don't utilize critical thinking, evidence based reasoning, etc... and it's so new to me, I want to be exposed to it more and more and understand how to actually think critically about issues. I want to speak with people on both ends of the spectrum, from those who view evidences, to those who operate primarily on belief. I want to view the claims of others, and my own, in a new way. I was recommended to these forums, that I might find a good mix here, so I can begin to see things in a new way, with a fresh perspective.
Where is a good place to start? Again, I want to hear from both believer and non, and it's all very much new to me, so I'm not going to be as familiar with terms and things as I'd like, but I want to learn. Practical, hands on application in the here and now, especially in discussion is primarily what I'm looking for rather than book recommendations, etc. So how to begin? Thanks for any input in advance!
Where did I condemn knowledge for its own sake as a vanity?
I don't think saying one has lived a sheltered life is synonymous with them saying they want to leave that life
or that they no longer want to be a Christian or live in a Christian environment.
Seems to me she's wanting to learn how to think more critically and gain more knowledge about subjects outside of her usual realm of experience, which I encouraged if such a desire is attended by right motives.
I most certainly do and would appreciate if you would explain why you think someone is herding someone and what you mean by it.
You seem to forget that I have encouraged her on her journey if her motives are right i.e. if her motives for acquiring knowledge are for the sake of Christ and the fulfilling of his commandments to love our neighbors and to preach the gospel to all nations.
My father, who was a successful barrister, told me that a crucial skill in discussion, argument, and life in general, is to be able to put aside your own views and try to see things from the other person's point of view - which often requires empathy, (although this can be dispassionate if you dislike their views). This will give you insight into their motivations, where they're going with an argument, and help you better understand what they mean by what they say - many people have difficulty articulating what they think or feel. It will also help you spot flawed assumptions on which their arguments may be based. It's not always easy to discover the other person's point of view - you may have to ask a lot of indirect questions.
You'll find a lot of people on forums, especially online where they don't have to look you in the eye, will deliberately misconstrue what you say, using (abusing) your own words as a straw-man argument (i.e. an argument easy to refute, or ridicule, but not the one you actually made) to avoid dealing with what you really meant. This looks clever and makes them feel good by making you look foolish, but is a sign of insecurity and doesn't lead anywhere; once you see this, you know that they're likely to avoid, evade, distract, and generally mess you around by trying to 'win' and feel superior. There used to be an etiquette that one should take the most positive and meaningful interpretation of what someone says in an argument or discussion, but this is more honoured in the breach these days.
It is sometimes entertaining or useful exercise to continue these straw jousts - they'll teach you plenty about psychology, but little about the topic of discussion. You may find that, rather than counter-jibing, apologising for not communicating clearly and restating your point unambiguously will spike their guns and help you by clarifying your own ideas, whether they're interested or not. An apology, sincere or not, can be very effective on both sides, and costs nothing if you're mature about it.
When discussing or arguing, please don't try to tell people what they think or feel - this is really annoying, and usually counter-productive. If you think that what they say implies that they think or feel something particular, then ask them directly, or tell them what it suggests to you.
Probably - I tend to use 'red-herring' for distractions in general. I can't think of a word for emotional distraction offhand, but I expect one exists; perhaps it's just an 'appeal to emotion'. Sometimes people use a straw-man argument as a red-herring, resulting in a straw herring; I suppose that could sometimes be an emotional straw herring!...I may be getting a couple terms flip-flopped or meshing them together... but I think there is another word specifically for something that elicits an emotional response to get the other person to jump onto that new subject emotionally, and forget the former topic...
"Knowledge is not to be desired in and of itself" - that is knowledge for its own sake.
"We all possess knowledge, but knowledge puffs up" - that is vanity.
Did you read the OP? "I realize I've been surrounded mostly by people who don't utilize critical thinking, evidence based reasoning, etc... and it's so new to me, I want to be exposed to it more and more and understand how to actually think critically about issues."
She says she has lived a life sheltered from critical thought, but wants to be exposed to the critical thought from which she was sheltered.
I never said so. Frumious Bandersnatch and I pointed her to resources about critical thinking. The very thing for which she asked. As bhsmte pointed out, it's very telling that when a Christian starts to wonder if there might be good tools for thinking, some Christians regard it as a threat.
You are happy to let people inquire freely as long as they already have the final answer fixed at the start. That is not free inquiry. That is a variety of presupposed bias that critical thinking seeks to avoid.
Some shepherds worry if members of their flock stray away too far from allowable forms of critical thinking. And try to herd them back to the approved modes of thought.
I approve of her motive to better herself, wherever the search may lead her. You are placing preconditions on her search for truth; she can search as much as she wants, as long as she stays in this pasture.
Perhaps an ad hominem ? An attack made in a personal nature, often to illicit an emotional response and distract the other person from the point or topic at hand, etc. ?Probably - I tend to use 'red-herring' for distractions in general. I can't think of a word for emotional distraction offhand, but I expect one exists; perhaps it's just an 'appeal to emotion'. Sometimes people use a straw-man argument as a red-herring, resulting in a straw herring; I suppose that could sometimes be an emotional straw herring!
That would work too, although it's not necessarily an emotional distraction (and not always fallacious).Perhaps an ad hominem ? An attack made in a personal nature, often to illicit an emotional response and distract the other person from the point or topic at hand, etc. ?
True enoughThat would work too, although it's not necessarily an emotional distraction (and not always fallacious).
Fortunately, the objective of "critical thinking, skills in logic, how to care about and examine evidence and consider evidence and not just "belief", fallacies in thinking, what they are and how to avoid them", that Bethany seeks to acquire, is to broaden and deepen understanding so as to explicitly avoid being, "totally confused and believing lies and half-truths".... Her search very well could lead her to adopt beliefs, attitudes, and views that are detrimental to her and instead of her bettering herself, she could end up totally confused and believing lies and half-truths.
Correct.
To say that knowledge puffs up is to say that it tends to make the one who possesses think more highly of themselves
Exactly.
Like anything else, knowledge can be beneficial and detrimental to a person.
I am not a shepherd. I am a concerned brother of hers in Christ and as such, if I think some harm or ill may befall her then I am going to caution her and warn her and encourage her.
In a sense yes I am. I am encouraging her to be careful about what she reads, and receives as so called "knowledge". Much of what is written and taught by men today is either full of half-truths or outright lies.
And if Christianity is true and the Church is the "pasture" so to speak, then she as one who is admittedly new to all of this, needs to be very careful about what she reads and what she receives.
In addition, you cannot say you approve of someone bettering themselves and then open the door and so, "Go wherever your search leads you."
What you are saying is akin to an older brother saying to their younger sister, "Sis, I want you to better yourself, now go on out into the world and wherever your search leads you, you go."
Once again, if I were a "free thinking" skeptical atheist warning her against the perils of religion, you would be liking my posts and you would be all ears to what I had to say. Since I am not, but am on the other side of the fence, you take issue with what I say which is fine.
Fortunately, the objective of "critical thinking, skills in logic, how to care about and examine evidence and consider evidence and not just "belief", fallacies in thinking, what they are and how to avoid them", that Bethany seeks to acquire, is to broaden and deepen understanding so as to explicitly avoid being, "totally confused and believing lies and half-truths".
No, knowledge is always better than ignorance. Wisdom is a separate issue.
With respect, you are a shepherd as defined in my metaphor. You confess it freely.
And how do we avoid accepting half-truths and lies? The best route is to think critically about matters.
Why? Critical thinking will allow one to discover errors in thought. If Christianity is true, critical thinking can do no harm to it.
Everyone is prone to mistakes, but if she internalizes the best practices that critical thinking has to offer, I don't fear that she will be taken in by cults or astrology or cupping.
Hi all! This is my first post here on the forums.I am a life long believer, grew up in a Charismatic environment, pretty sheltered, and have been surrounded by and raised in that type of Christian environment for most of my life. Missionary organizations, Bible schools, Christian music only... you name it, I fit that mold. However I've recently been challenged, and I want to learn new skills based on what I've recently been exposed to: I want to learn critical thinking, skills in logic, how to care about and examine evidence and consider evidence and not just "belief", fallacies in thinking, what they are and how to avoid them... It's all brand new to me, like a new language. I realize I've been surrounded mostly by people who don't utilize critical thinking, evidence based reasoning, etc... and it's so new to me, I want to be exposed to it more and more and understand how to actually think critically about issues. I want to speak with people on both ends of the spectrum, from those who view evidences, to those who operate primarily on belief. I want to view the claims of others, and my own, in a new way. I was recommended to these forums, that I might find a good mix here, so I can begin to see things in a new way, with a fresh perspective.
Where is a good place to start? Again, I want to hear from both believer and non, and it's all very much new to me, so I'm not going to be as familiar with terms and things as I'd like, but I want to learn. Practical, hands on application in the here and now, especially in discussion is primarily what I'm looking for rather than book recommendations, etc. So how to begin? Thanks for any input in advance!
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