New Thinker

[Bethany311]

Hi all! This is my first post here on the forums. I am a life long believer, grew up in a Charismatic environment, pretty sheltered, and have been surrounded by and raised in that type of Christian environment for most of my life. Missionary organizations, Bible schools, Christian music only... you name it, I fit that mold. However I've recently been challenged, and I want to learn new skills based on what I've recently been exposed to: I want to learn critical thinking, skills in logic, how to care about and examine evidence and consider evidence and not just "belief", fallacies in thinking, what they are and how to avoid them... It's all brand new to me, like a new language. I realize I've been surrounded mostly by people who don't utilize critical thinking, evidence based reasoning, etc... and it's so new to me, I want to be exposed to it more and more and understand how to actually think critically about issues. I want to speak with people on both ends of the spectrum, from those who view evidences, to those who operate primarily on belief. I want to view the claims of others, and my own, in a new way. I was recommended to these forums, that I might find a good mix here, so I can begin to see things in a new way, with a fresh perspective.

Where is a good place to start? Again, I want to hear from both believer and non, and it's all very much new to me, so I'm not going to be as familiar with terms and things as I'd like, but I want to learn. Practical, hands on application in the here and now, especially in discussion is primarily what I'm looking for rather than book recommendations, etc. So how to begin? Thanks for any input in advance!

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I recommend finding a good philosophy discussion group, preferably in person rather than online, led by someone who knows what they're doing. I've also found philosophy courses useful- I've been on several part-time weekly courses (a couple of hours a week) which were discussions about some philosophical topic introduced and led by a professor of philosophy; having expert guidance and being able to ask questions in realtime makes a huge difference.

There are also audio courses, which are a useful add-on. 'The Great Courses' does some good ones, which are often cheaper bought through Audible (although you lose the course guidebook). I listen to them when out jogging. For example, Argumentation - The Study of Effective Reasoning, Your Deceptive Mind - A Scientific Guide to Critical thinking Skills, Skepticism 101 - How to Think like a Scientist, The Great Ideas of Philosophy, The Big questions of Philosophy, etc. For more specifically religion & science arguments, there's Science and Religion, Great Philosophical Debates: Free Will and Determinism, and plenty more.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Yourlogicalfallacyis provides some easily digested summaries of the major fallacies.

 

[anonymous person]

Hi all! This is my first post here on the forums. I am a life long believer, grew up in a Charismatic environment, pretty sheltered, and have been surrounded by and raised in that type of Christian environment for most of my life. Missionary organizations, Bible schools, Christian music only... you name it, I fit that mold. However I've recently been challenged, and I want to learn new skills based on what I've recently been exposed to: I want to learn critical thinking, skills in logic, how to care about and examine evidence and consider evidence and not just "belief", fallacies in thinking, what they are and how to avoid them... It's all brand new to me, like a new language. I realize I've been surrounded mostly by people who don't utilize critical thinking, evidence based reasoning, etc... and it's so new to me, I want to be exposed to it more and more and understand how to actually think critically about issues. I want to speak with people on both ends of the spectrum, from those who view evidences, to those who operate primarily on belief. I want to view the claims of others, and my own, in a new way. I was recommended to these forums, that I might find a good mix here, so I can begin to see things in a new way, with a fresh perspective.

Where is a good place to start? Again, I want to hear from both believer and non, and it's all very much new to me, so I'm not going to be as familiar with terms and things as I'd like, but I want to learn. Practical, hands on application in the here and now, especially in discussion is primarily what I'm looking for rather than book recommendations, etc. So how to begin? Thanks for any input in advance!

May I ask you a question?

 

[SteveB28]

Hi all! This is my first post here on the forums. I am a life long believer, grew up in a Charismatic environment, pretty sheltered, and have been surrounded by and raised in that type of Christian environment for most of my life. Missionary organizations, Bible schools, Christian music only... you name it, I fit that mold. However I've recently been challenged, and I want to learn new skills based on what I've recently been exposed to: I want to learn critical thinking, skills in logic, how to care about and examine evidence and consider evidence and not just "belief", fallacies in thinking, what they are and how to avoid them... It's all brand new to me, like a new language. I realize I've been surrounded mostly by people who don't utilize critical thinking, evidence based reasoning, etc... and it's so new to me, I want to be exposed to it more and more and understand how to actually think critically about issues. I want to speak with people on both ends of the spectrum, from those who view evidences, to those who operate primarily on belief. I want to view the claims of others, and my own, in a new way. I was recommended to these forums, that I might find a good mix here, so I can begin to see things in a new way, with a fresh perspective.

Where is a good place to start? Again, I want to hear from both believer and non, and it's all very much new to me, so I'm not going to be as familiar with terms and things as I'd like, but I want to learn. Practical, hands on application in the here and now, especially in discussion is primarily what I'm looking for rather than book recommendations, etc. So how to begin? Thanks for any input in advance!

Good for you!

You have already taken the best 'first step'.......by beginning to question!

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Also, don't forget to check out a full list of cognitive biases. Once you have an idea of the ways we can easily fool ourselves, you can spot these problems in how you and other people reason and argue.

 

[Bethany311]

Yourlogicalfallacyis provides some easily digested summaries of the major fallacies.

Very cool website! I've learned a few of these terms recently, and it's nice to know that they seem to be more well-known and considered by critical thinkers than I first thought...

 

[Bethany311]

Also, don't forget to check out a full list of cognitive biases. Once you have an idea of the ways we can easily fool ourselves, you can spot these problems in how you and other people reason and argue.

Very nice...

 

[Bethany311]

I recommend finding a good philosophy discussion group, preferably in person rather than online, led by someone who knows what they're doing. I've also found philosophy courses useful- I've been on several part-time weekly courses (a couple of hours a week) which were discussions about some philosophical topic introduced and led by a professor of philosophy; having expert guidance and being able to ask questions in realtime makes a huge difference.

There are also audio courses, which are a useful add-on. 'The Great Courses' does some good ones, which are often cheaper bought through Audible (although you lose the course guidebook). I listen to them when out jogging. For example, Argumentation - The Study of Effective Reasoning, Your Deceptive Mind - A Scientific Guide to Critical thinking Skills, Skepticism 101 - How to Think like a Scientist, The Great Ideas of Philosophy, The Big questions of Philosophy, etc. For more specifically religion & science arguments, there's Science and Religion, Great Philosophical Debates: Free Will and Determinism, and plenty more.

Thank you for the ideas!

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

My father, who was a successful barrister, told me that a crucial skill in discussion, argument, and life in general, is to be able to put aside your own views and try to see things from the other person's point of view - which often requires empathy, (although this can be dispassionate if you dislike their views). This will give you insight into their motivations, where they're going with an argument, and help you better understand what they mean by what they say - many people have difficulty articulating what they think or feel. It will also help you spot flawed assumptions on which their arguments may be based. It's not always easy to discover the other person's point of view - you may have to ask a lot of indirect questions.

You'll find a lot of people on forums, especially online where they don't have to look you in the eye, will deliberately misconstrue what you say, using (abusing) your own words as a straw-man argument (i.e. an argument easy to refute, or ridicule, but not the one you actually made) to avoid dealing with what you really meant. This looks clever and makes them feel good by making you look foolish, but is a sign of insecurity and doesn't lead anywhere; once you see this, you know that they're likely to avoid, evade, distract, and generally mess you around by trying to 'win' and feel superior. There used to be an etiquette that one should take the most positive and meaningful interpretation of what someone says in an argument or discussion, but this is more honoured in the breach these days.

It is sometimes entertaining or useful exercise to continue these straw jousts - they'll teach you plenty about psychology, but little about the topic of discussion. You may find that, rather than counter-jibing, apologising for not communicating clearly and restating your point unambiguously will spike their guns and help you by clarifying your own ideas, whether they're interested or not. An apology, sincere or not, can be very effective on both sides, and costs nothing if you're mature about it.

When discussing or arguing, please don't try to tell people what they think or feel - this is really annoying, and usually counter-productive. If you think that what they say implies that they think or feel something particular, then ask them directly, or tell them what it suggests to you.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Hi all! This is my first post here on the forums. I am a life long believer, grew up in a Charismatic environment, pretty sheltered, and have been surrounded by and raised in that type of Christian environment for most of my life. Missionary organizations, Bible schools, Christian music only... you name it, I fit that mold. However I've recently been challenged, and I want to learn new skills based on what I've recently been exposed to: I want to learn critical thinking, skills in logic, how to care about and examine evidence and consider evidence and not just "belief", fallacies in thinking, what they are and how to avoid them... It's all brand new to me, like a new language. I realize I've been surrounded mostly by people who don't utilize critical thinking, evidence based reasoning, etc... and it's so new to me, I want to be exposed to it more and more and understand how to actually think critically about issues. I want to speak with people on both ends of the spectrum, from those who view evidences, to those who operate primarily on belief. I want to view the claims of others, and my own, in a new way. I was recommended to these forums, that I might find a good mix here, so I can begin to see things in a new way, with a fresh perspective.

Where is a good place to start? Again, I want to hear from both believer and non, and it's all very much new to me, so I'm not going to be as familiar with terms and things as I'd like, but I want to learn. Practical, hands on application in the here and now, especially in discussion is primarily what I'm looking for rather than book recommendations, etc. So how to begin? Thanks for any input in advance!

Hi Bethany,

It's becoming more common these days for those who come from either fundamentalistic or more charismatic forms of Christian faith to begin pondering as to whether or not there is in fact more to the nature of "belief" than what they've been told, whether from within their local church or from the comforts and confines of their own families. Apparently, you're now peeking over the horizon and seeing that there is more. That can be both a good thing and a bad thing, so don't jump into all of this without a sense of caution, Bethany.

While I agree with some of the basic praxis regarding critical thinking that a couple of fellow CF posters have thus far presented to you for your consideration, I would instead state that your beginning point is somewhat "relative" in nature, and where you begin on your journey into things "philosophical" will depend upon, and emerge out of, what you perceive your own felt needs are, today.

Rather than refer you to some source for contemplation (at least not for the moment), answer these questions, Bethany: What is it specifically you think you need to achieve, or will be achieving, by studying "critical thinking"? And why do you need to achieve this goal? Do you think the achievement of this goal will actually bring the "gain" that you might hope for?

Peace
2PhiloVoid

 

[anonymous person]

Hi Bethany,

It's becoming more common these days for those who come from either fundamentalistic or more charismatic forms of Christian faith to begin pondering as to whether or not there is in fact more to the nature of "belief" than what they've been told, whether from within their local church or from the comforts and confines of their own families. Apparently, you're now peeking over the horizon and seeing that there is more. That can be both a good thing and a bad thing, so don't jump into all of this without a sense of caution, Bethany.

While I agree with some of the basic praxis regarding critical thinking that a couple of fellow CF posters have thus far presented to you for your consideration, I would instead state that your beginning point is somewhat "relative" in nature, and where you begin on your journey into things "philosophical" will depend upon, and emerge out of, what you perceive your own felt needs are, today.

Rather than refer you to some source for contemplation (at least not for the moment), answer these questions, Bethany: What is it specifically you think you need to achieve, or will be achieving, by studying "critical thinking"? And why do you need to achieve this goal? Do you think the achievement of this goal will actually bring the "gain" that you might hope for?

Peace
2PhiloVoid

I second this recommendation. Knowledge without the fear of God tends to make men and women more clever devils, as C.S. Lewis once put it.

Knowledge is not to be desired in and of itself or as an end in and of itself. We all possess knowledge, but knowledge puffs up but love builds up. So if it is for the sake of Christ and the fulfillment of His commands towards us to love one another as He loves us that you seek these things, then I encourage you to seek them, but if it is for any other reason, then your search will be in vain.

 

[bhsmte]

Some folks feel threatened.

 

[anonymous person]

Some folks feel threatened.

Who are you referring to?

How is this remark helping Bethany?

 

[essentialsaltes]

Who are you referring to?

Probably the people who are urging caution and suspicion with regards to knowledge, rather than delight that someone wishes to reduce their ignorance.

How is this remark helping Bethany?

She may be clued in to notice who is trying to help answer her request, and who is trying to herd her back to the shelter she's trying to leave.

 

[bhsmte]

Probably the people who are urging caution and suspicion with regards to knowledge, rather than delight that someone wishes to reduce their ignorance.



She may be clued in to notice who is trying to help answer her request, and who is trying to herd her back to the shelter she's trying to leave.

Nailed it!

As has been demonstrated on this site by some many times; education and knowledge is the Krytonite of fundy beliefs.

 

[anonymous person]

Probably the people who are urging caution and suspicion with regards to knowledge, rather than delight that someone wishes to reduce their ignorance.

Who are these people?

She may be clued in to notice who is trying to help answer her request, and who is trying to herd her back to the shelter she's trying to leave.

She is trying to leave a shelter? Where did you gather this? What shelter?

Who is herding someone? What do you mean by herding?

 

[anonymous person]

Nailed it!

As has been demonstrated on this site by some many times; education and knowledge is the Krytonite of fundy beliefs.

Who here is a fundy? Who here has said anything you disagree with?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Probably the people who are urging caution and suspicion with regards to knowledge, rather than delight that someone wishes to reduce their ignorance.

She may be clued in to notice who is trying to help answer her request, and who is trying to herd her back to the shelter she's trying to leave.

Yeah...."as if" that's what I'm trying to do. But, you all can think what you will, I'm not going to get into it here with you. I'm just going to talk to Bethany. ...Thanks.

2PhiloVoid

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Nailed it!

As has been demonstrated on this site by some many times; education and knowledge is the Krytonite of fundy beliefs.

Right, that's why I have degrees in Philosophy and Education from a secular institution--because it's my Kryptonite. NOT!! (Anyway, that's all I'm going to say; we can haggle on some other thread ... some time in the future. )

2PhiloVoid