New--SDA General Conference Statement on EGW writings

[Adventist Heretic]

deleting those scriptures because you want to go after this or that person claiming to be a prophet - is not "a solution" as we all know.

Those passages simply don't apply here. You cannot equate Ellen White with a biblical prophet just because her prophecy failed. That is assuming your conclusion from the start. By that logic every single time somebody fails that proves their prophet. That is irrational and insane. She failed the high degree of likelihood is that she is not what she says she is. Benefit of doubt goes against her not with her. Harold Camping did the same thing, Kim Clement did the same thing. Psychics do the same thing. If you can't trust the results then what can you trust? Are we just supposed to take your word for it and not actually look at the evidenc. There is no evidence of actually proves that she's a prophet. There's only evidence that you interpret as though she's a prophet. There is a difference.

 

[BobRyan]

Jer 18:
5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

Job predicts doom - but it does not happen -- Nineveh is spared - yet Job is a true prophet and the Jer 18 principle of conditional prophecy explains the result.

John predicts the Messiah as a liberator from all earthly oppressors who destroys the wicked and sets up his kingdom - but that does not happen, instead the Jews reject their own Messiah and John finally sends a message to Christ saying "are you the one we seek - or do we seek another?".

"No condition" was mentioned by Jonah – Jonah complained bitterly against his prophecy being conditional
"No condition" was mentioned by John or his father – John later complains as he sees it all crumbling “are you the one we seek or do we seek another?”
"no condition" was stated by Moses in Egypt when he promised them a land of milk and honey. He did not promise them "all of you from the age of 19 years and upward will die with me in the wilderness - so now... let's go do it".

In all three of these examples - these prophets not only mentioned no condition - they also struggled hard against their prophecy being conditional.



Indeed - but that sort of game does not work on someone who reads as noted above in the case of John and Jonah.

Jeremiah 18 does not say "prophecy is only conditional if the prophet brings it up each time". In fact Jonah was rather miffed that his prophecy could not help but be conditional.

Those passages simply don't apply here.

There is a transparent "wishful thinking" element to that "pay no attention to Jer 18 or the prophets who made no conditional-statements yet their prophecies proved to be conditional anyway" kind of dismissive

You cannot equate Ellen White with a biblical prophet

Earth to .... -- The gift of prophecy only works one way - no matter who has it. This is "sola scriptura" testing, using the Bible definition for the gift and how it works - no matter who claims to have the gift.

Not sure why this would be "news".

That is assuming your conclusion from the start.

false.

IT is using the consistent method of sola-scriptura testing for the doctrine on prophesy to see if it is legit or not.

How is this point even a little bit confusing??

By that logic every single time somebody fails that proves their prophet.

Only if you ignore a sufficient number of details in the text and discussion. So far you simply ignore the text.

That is irrational and insane.

Your response appears to lack substance at that point

Maybe you would benefit from a refresher on the Bible doctrine of inspiration and prophecy. It provides a rule to follow and distinguishes between true and false prophets.

 

[Leaf473]

Sadly for your question Jer 18 does not say that conditional prophecy does not apply to churches or individuals.

Saul is blessed by Samuel then later cursed.

The point remains.

That's fine. In SDA theology, are all prophecies conditional? With conditional prophecies, are the conditions always given?

 

[BobRyan]

That's fine. In SDA theology, are all prophecies conditional?

They are not all conditional in the Bible so therefore they are not all conditional in SDA theology.

Sola scriptura testing... where details matter.

With conditional prophecies, are the conditions always given?

So then - reading this post #317 from yesterday might help refresh your memory regarding the answer to that --
Please let me know if that helps with your question.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

"No condition" was mentioned by Jonah – Jonah complained bitterly against his prophecy being conditional

"If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him." Deu 18:22 (NIV)

From TRUTH OR FABLES - Detailed examination of the vision

Food for Worms Vision by Ellen G. White

The explination for the failuer was given, in the Text at the time. God is mercyful and does not want to kill them. same rule applies. if you repent from your sin you will find mercy. Does not apply in the Case of EGW. No explination was ever given. Context is Repeated failed predictions of Jesus Coming as a result of the Confusion over the failed prediction of William Miller.
"Hold on He's still coming" that is the context. FAILED = FALSE PROPHET

"If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him." Deu 18:22 (NIV)

"No condition" was mentioned by John or his father – John later complains as he sees it all crumbling “are you the one we seek or do we seek another?”

John was given and explanation . it was not the explanation he wanted. NO SUCH Explanation was given By EGW. It was given by her SUPPORTER AFTER the event failed. it was used by her supportes to measure when the Lord was coming back Food for Worms Vision by Ellen G. White

"no condition" was stated by Moses in Egypt when he promised them a land of milk and honey. He did not promise them "all of you from the age of 19 years and upward will die with me in the wilderness - so now... let's go do it".

NOT a valid Comparison. Blessings are always conditional upon obedience. They rebelled and rebelled bad. They refused to enter the land because they did not have faith in God to deliever them. That is not the Case here.
0/3 for justifying EGW as a prophet.
"If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him." Deu 18:22 (NIV)

link to further explanation of failed prophecy, including a list of all the people covered in the vision and how they regarded the prophecy. It is pretty clear that they used the prophecy as a guide to when the Lord was going to return. NO condition were understood by the original recipiants. FALSE PROPHET

LINK

Food for Worms Vision by Ellen G. White

 

[BobRyan]

Job complains bitterly about his prophecy being "conditional". His message to Nineveh specified no condition at all and Job camps out waiting and watching to see the city wiped out. He is bitterly disappointed when it does not happen.

The explination for the failuer was given, in the Text at the time. God is mercyful and does not want to kill them.

No doubt. This what we see in Jer 18 and in Ezek 18 and in Rom 11 and...

God's predictions of doom or of blessing are conditional on what the nation or person (in Ezek 18, Rom 11 case) does.

if you repent from your sin you will find mercy.

And it is the same with those facing blessing who later turn from that course as Ezek 18 points out... as Rom 11 points out.. as Matt 18 points out ...

Does not apply in the Case of EGW.

Only in wishful thinking contexts does not not apply when a prophet is involved that does not meet with your preference.

No explination was ever given.

not true.

John was given and explanation .

Jeremiah 18 does not say "the prophecy is conditional as long as the prophet is given an explanation by God"

As we saw here --

Jer 18:
5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

Job predicts doom - but it does not happen -- Nineveh is spared - yet Job is a true prophet and the Jer 18 principle of conditional prophecy explains the result.

John predicts the Messiah as a liberator from all earthly oppressors who destroys the wicked and sets up his kingdom - but that does not happen, instead the Jews reject their own Messiah and John finally sends a message to Christ saying "are you the one we seek - or do we seek another?".

"No condition" was mentioned by Jonah – Jonah complained bitterly against his prophecy being conditional
"No condition" was mentioned by John or his father – John later complains as he sees it all crumbling “are you the one we seek or do we seek another?”
"no condition" was stated by Moses in Egypt when he promised them a land of milk and honey. He did not promise them "all of you from the age of 19 years and upward will die with me in the wilderness - so now... let's go do it".

In all three of these examples - these prophets not only mentioned no condition - they also struggled hard against their prophecy being conditional.

...

Jeremiah 18 does not say "prophecy is only conditional if the prophet brings it up each time". In fact Jonah was rather miffed that his prophecy could not help but be conditional.

..

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Food for Worms Vision by Ellen G. White

The "Food for Worms" Vision

By Robert K. Sanders



Bible: "If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him." Deu 18:22 (NIV)

EGW: "I was shown the company present at the Conference, Said the angel: "Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus." Ellen G. White, 1 Testimonies, p. 131-132. May 27, 1856.



Did Ellen G. White's food for worms vision, come to pass as she foretold it would?

It is not easy at times to document the outcome of Mrs. White’s vision as she often wrote the outcome years after the fact relying on her memory. Being human she may have been tempted to embellish them. But the vision given May 27,1856 at a conference in Battle Creek, Michigan, can be tested for its accuracy. This vision took place 156 years ago—as of 2012.

The Angel told Ellen:

• First: Said the Angel: "Some food for worms,"
• Second: "some subject to the seven last plagues"
• Third: "some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus."

What has been fulfilled?

• First: All have been food for worms, not just some.
• Second: None have been subject to the seven last plagues, as they have not yet begun.
• Third: None are alive and remaining on the earth to be translated.

EGW's vision is 100% failure—or was EGW's angel a failure?

We could stop right here as it has been proven Ellen G. White failed God's test as a prophet. It is hard for the dyed in the wool Seventh-day Adventist to grasp this concept of Ellen being a false prophet. They say that Ellen wrote so many beautiful books, and she did not breathe in vision, and held up a heavy Bible for many minutes, so she must be a prophet. I ask you, where in the Bible is this a test for a prophet? The General conference president, A. G. Daniels stated that, "he did not see her not breathe in vision or hold up a heavy Bible and never met any one that had." 1919 Bible conference record, pp. 28,29. However some may like to see how others in the past has related to this vision since it was given in 1856. So we will continue.

My last Sabbath at Church as a Seventh-day Adventist in October 1994, this 1856 vision was discussed in Sabbath School before class discussion began. A brother said that this was a conditional prophecy and if the Adventists would have done their work Christ would have come and the prophecy would have been fulfilled.

This is what I call putting mortar in the holes of their "firm foundation, the Spirit of Prophecy." There is nothing about this prophecy that suggests that it is conditional. Every failed prophecy by cult leaders could be declared "conditional." The members and leaders of the Seventh-day Adventist Church never understood this as a conditional prophecy as they compiled lists of names to see how close they were to the end of time and as the people on the list were dying they thought Christ was soon to come.



Pastor E. S. Ballenger Comments on Ellen G. White's Food for Worms Vision

At a conference held in Battle Creek, in 1856, Mrs. White had one of her visions. We quote from I T 131-132:

"I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel, 'Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.' "

This vision was given 88 years ago. The writer can well remember when this vision was carried from camp meeting to camp meeting, and read with telling effect, the speakers pointing out the fact that the Lord must come very soon; for nearly all of those who attended that conference were dead.

F. M. Wilcox, editor of the R&H after quoting the above from Mrs. White, commits herself in these words:

"We are firm believers in the spirit of prophecy, and we accept at full face value this statement which we have quoted above." Review and Herald, Jan. 22, 1931, p. 23.

In the same issue, a statement from J. N. Loughborough gives some side-light on Mrs. White's attitude toward a list of the living members of the 1856 Conference. Id. 24:

"About 1904 [forty-eight years after the meeting in 1856], as told to me by Bro. Nelson at the General Conference in 1905, he and George Amadon were making a list of those who attended that meeting in Battle Creek in 1856. They went to see Sister White to ask her if she could remember any names they had omitted. Brother Nelson told me she said, 'What are you doing?' He replied, 'I am getting a list of those who attended that meeting.' She asked, 'What are you going to do with it? He replied, "I am going to have copies of it printed and sent to all our people.' She replied, 'Then you stop right where you are. If they get that list, instead of working to push on the message, they will be watching the Review every week to see who is dead.' "

Would it not be a good plan to publish this vision in some of the Centennial literature? Why not let the people know the truth? Of course, they all know that no righteous angel ever gave that information to Mrs. White, and they know that it was a mistake; and if they were honest, they would acknowledge that it was a mistake.

"It is as easy to make an idol of false doctrines and theories as to fashion an idol of wood or stone." Great Controversy, p. 583, The Centennial Supplement, p. 69 by E. S. Ballenger.

Ellen should have added false visions to her list of what makes an idol.



List of Conference Attendees Compiles by Evelyn Lewis-Reavis in 1910

A list compiled in 1910 by Mrs. Evelyn Lewis-Reavis isted twenty-four living out of sixty-seven that attended that conference. Today (in 1998) the youngest would be one hundred and forty-two years old. As you can see it is impossible for any of them to be alive today. Mrs. Reavis was a member of this conference.

Living Nov. 1910	Age	Deceased	Deceased
Ellen G. White G. W. Amadon J. E. White W. C. White T. B. Lewis Ogden Lewis Lorinda Nordyke Mary Smith-Abbey May L. King Asahel Smith Evelyn L. Reavis Anna L. Wilson J. W. Bacheller Arvilla D. Bacheller Julia J. McDowell Smith Kellogg Albert Kellogg Emma Kellogg J. H. Kellogg Mrs. A.A.Dodge Hannah Hastings Seymour Bovee Griffin Lewis Laura Kellogg-Brackett Mrs. Munsell-Marvin Mrs. R. M. Kilgore Lorinda Carpenter	83 78 61 56 70 62 68 56 78 74 58 70 73 72 73 76 74 61 59 80 65 82 68 65 80 67 75	James White Uriah Smith Cyrenius Smith Louisa Bovee J. R. Lewis Deborah Lyon Mrs. J. R. Lewis Sarah Belden H. N. White Dan R. Palmer J. P. Kellogg Mrs. J. P. Kellogg Josiah Hart Leonard Eggleston Cynthis Bacheller Roxana R. Cornell Clara Bonfoey Jennie F. Rogers A. A. Dodge Richard Godsmark Huldah Godsmark David Hewitt Mrs. D. Hewitt Walter Grant Nancy Grant Jesse Dorcas Elias Goodwin	S. W. Rhodes Henry Gardner George Lamie Martin Phillips Hortense Lane-Hayes Mary Kellogg S. H. Lane S. T. Belden Carrie Grant Samuel Warren Mrs. S. B. Warren Mrs. Cyrenius Smith Jarvis Nunsell

No one should support or fear a false Prophet.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Job complains bitterly about his prophecy being "conditional". His message to Nineveh specified no condition at all and Job camps out waiting and watching to see the city wiped out. He is bitterly disappointed when it does not happen.

no condition with EGW, please show me the conditional explaination in EGW prophecy.

No doubt. This what we see in Jer 18 and in Ezek 18 and in Rom 11 and...

God's predictions of doom or of blessing are conditional on what the nation or person (in Ezek 18, Rom 11 case) does.

Does not apply it is not a prediction of Doom and Judgement. it is a prediction of the Return of the Lord. Failed Prediction False Prophet.

And it is the same with those facing blessing who later turn from that course as Ezek 18 points out... as Rom 11 points out.. as Matt 18 points out ...

Only in wishful thinking contexts does not not apply when a prophet is involved that does not meet with your preference.

Rationalization. He is a link to see how people in EGW's Day viewed her failed prophecy. just in case you missed it. Food for Worms Vision by Ellen G. White

not true.

Where is the explination?

Jeremiah 18 does not say "the prophecy is conditional as long as the prophet is given an explanation by God"

As we saw here --

not a valid comparison see above notes.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

lt is funny that even Ellen White did not say it was conditional in 1905, 10 years before her death. She tried to get them to stop publishing a list of the people who were in attandence. Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. she tried to cover it up. There is no way to justify that. Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. That proves right there she is not a prophet. NO Question about it.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

7 false prediction of EGW

 

[Leaf473]

They are not all conditional in the Bible so therefore they are not all conditional in SDA theology.

Sola scriptura testing... where details matter.

Cool! How do SDA's identify conditional prophecies?

So then - reading this post #317 from yesterday might help refresh your memory regarding the answer to that --
Please let me know if that helps with your question.

Looks like No, the conditions aren't always given.

How is it decided when the conditions of a conditional prophecy have been met?

 

[Leaf473]

God's predictions of doom or of blessing are conditional on what the nation or person (in Ezek 18, Rom 11 case) does.

Regarding the people about whom it was prophesied that they would experience the seven plagues (I think it was), what did they do such that the prophesied event did not take place? Or did it take place, will it take place?

 

[BobRyan]

Regarding the people about whom it was prophesied that they would experience the seven plagues

Everyone alive at the end of time would go through those plagues -- some as a lost person and some as a saved one. That was not "the prediction" - and all the saints that go into those plagues would live to see the second coming without actually getting any of the plagues... that was not the prediction.

The prediction was that some in that very room would live to the point of the second coming, so then like Israel promised the "land flowing with milk and honey" when they left Egypt. Not promised "to die with me (Moses) in the wilderness".

I suspect this is "the easy part" of the discussion but I could be wrong depending on who is reading the thread.

(I think it was), what did they do such that the prophesied event did not take place? Or did it take place, will it take place?

Ellen White published a lot of material on how that event followed a similiar path as the Exodus promises in Egypt.

 

[BobRyan]

Cool! How do SDA's identify conditional prophecies?

by the Bible.

Looks like No, the conditions aren't always given.

As was the case with Moses, Jonah, and John the baptizer in their predictions.

 

[BobRyan]

lt is funny that even Ellen White did not say it was conditional

As was the case with Moses, Jonah, and John the baptizer in their predictions.

Not sure how this always comes up as apparently -- too complicated to follow the point when this fact is posted... at least in the case of some.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

As was the case with Moses, Jonah, and John the baptizer in their predictions.

As with every false prophet. so there is really no way to tell except with what they said and weather it came true. EGW said something would happen, it did not. So we are right back to where we started. Is she a prophet. By your logic you cannot use the tests given in the scripture. Since we cannot use the test of Scripture we cannot accept her as a Prophet. That is how it goes. "Test everything Hold fast to what is true, for many false prophets have come into the world" By the test of Scripture She failed. Pretty Simple, only those who want to complicate the matter see otherwise.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

As was the case with Moses, Jonah, and John the baptizer in their predictions.

As with every false prophet. so there is really no way to tell except with what they said and weather it came true.

Well the people "died in the wilderness" in the case of Moses' prediction of a "land of milk and honey" - along with Moses.
And.. Jesus did not free the Jews from the Romans - contrary to what John and his father predicted
And .. Nineveh was not destroyed -- contrary to what Jonah predicted and also against is strong complaint that the destruction did not happen.

The reason they are not "false prophets" has to do with the Jer 18 fact that those are conditional prophecies even though the ones predicting those events objected strongly to the conditional element.

EGW said something would happen, it did not.

Indeed - another case of that same thing. Another place to "be informed" about the implications of Jer 18.

So we are right back to where we started.

Nope - we are 'informed' by the impact of Jeremiah 18 in those cases and we can accept the "easy part" to get to the more difficult parts.

By your logic you cannot use the tests given in the scripture.

Not true since not all prophecies are conditional.

Your idea of "ignore the Bible in Jeremiah 18 and just say this or that prophet is false" is not very compelling -- as it turns out.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

BobRyan said:

As was the case with Moses, Jonah, and John the baptizer in their predictions.

Well the people "died in the wilderness" in the case of Moses' prediction of a "land of milk and honey" - along with Moses.

Due to Rebellion of People

And.. Jesus did not free the Jews from the Romans - contrary to what John and his father predicted

Wrong understanding of Messiah's role

And .. Nineveh was not destroyed -- contrary to what Jonah predicted and also against is strong complaint that the destruction did not happen.

due to God's Mercy, explanation given at the time. NOT so with EGW she never gave a condition for the failure, because there was no explanation to give, because it was a LIE.

The reason they are not "false prophets" has to do with the Jer 18 fact that those are conditional prophecies even though the ones predicting those events objected strongly to the conditional element.

Jeremiah 18 does not apply. EGW gave no condition. AS late as 1905 10 years before her death, she did not give any condition or any clarifications, just chastisement saying it was a distraction. That is wishful thinking. It is very clear that a person not want to follow the evidence will hold to a belief at all cost. I am sorry I cannot do that I must respect the evidence

Your idea of "ignore the Bible in Jeremiah 18 and just say this or that prophet is false" is not very compelling -- as it turns out.

I am not ignoring Jeremiah 18 it is talking about Judah & Israel and they being punished for there wickedness and disobediance. How dose that apply here? it is talking about punishment for disobediance of Nations. How dose that apply to weather EGW is a Prophet? it does not.

 

[Leaf473]

Everyone alive at the end of time would go through those plagues -- some as a lost person and some as a saved one. That was not "the prediction" - and all the saints that go into those plagues would live to see the second coming without actually getting any of the plagues... that was not the prediction.

The prediction was that some in that very room would live to the point of the second coming, so then like Israel promised the "land flowing with milk and honey" when they left Egypt. Not promised "to die with me (Moses) in the wilderness".

Interesting! What happened so that the prophesied event didn't take place?

I suspect this is "the easy part" of the discussion but I could be wrong depending on who is reading the thread.


Ellen White published a lot of material on how that event followed a similiar path as the Exodus promises in Egypt.

Cool!

 

[Leaf473]

by the Bible.

Do you mean because it didn't happen as prophesied, therefore it must be the same as the conditional prophecies in the scriptures?

Would there have been any way to know that the prophecy was conditional at the time it was given?

As was the case with Moses, Jonah, and John the baptizer in their predictions.