New--SDA General Conference Statement on EGW writings

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

Anyone who actually read Ellen White - knows she endorsed soul sleep in all cases in both OT and NT - both saved and unsaved.
No wonder your false accusations provide no evidence.

That is one of the stated doctrines of the Adventist church today and it does not come from "quoting Ellen White" as anyone who actually looked at SDA doctrine today knows.

Now you are just strait up lying.
Ask Joseph Bates he lost his leadership because he listen to EGW endorsment.

false

here is the chronology of the Shut door Shut Door Chornology
notice EGW grand vision of the path which the mural was in the GC office was given about shut door.

The vision was not about the shut door - as we all know who actually read Early Writings. You need an actual fact at some point.

Bob, you are Lying again. either you are unaware I have a degree in SDA theology

I know a lot of people with degrees in theology - and bad doctrine, unreliable facts etc.

Is it your claim that your degree makes you infallible?
I am certain you and I both know people with a degree in theology - where we would say that they are getting certain doctrines/details wrong. I know I know of such cases.

My argument is that your many many false accusations need an actual fact at some point.

So you are lying again

Again.. you need an "actual fact".

EGW NEVER endorse SOUL SLEEP, she did not believe you had a soul, she believed you ARE a soul.

Ok I guess you might benefit from a lesson on actual facts.

"She will not be one that will suffer much, but oh, if the Lord sees it is best and she sleeps through the time of trouble, it is well with her soul. She has no little ones like yourself. Oh, my faith says, I cannot give her up. Lord, save, Lord save, but then the Lord knows what is best and I will not feel so deeply over anything." {Lt56-1890.2}

"Stephen committed the keeping of his soul to Him whom he saw in his yielding up his life. “But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” He said “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” He committed his soul unto Jesus. He only is able to take care of it. We are not our own selves able to appreciate or take care of our souls. And if we do not commit our souls to God in faith and trust every day, Satan himself will take the soul committed to his will. None should be entrusted with the soul but He " 15MR 101.1

She Believe's in DUST to Dust. Gen 3:19 " From Dust you are and dust you shall return."

As do we all.

But that is in reference to the body made from dust.

she did not believe in Matt 10:28

You have no such quote - as we both know.

"Christ taught the people to ask, “What saith the word of the Lord?” I have a soul to save. I cannot afford to be mystified when my eternal well-being is at stake. Because my minister refuses to examine the Scriptures with a heart free from prejudice and stubbornness, RH May 28, 1901, Art. A, par. 4

"We all have our individuality; this cannot be submerged in another. You have a soul to save or to lose. The Lord will be to you a present help in every time of trouble. He would have you stand at your post of duty, relying wholly upon Him who has loved us and died for us. DG 183.4 (Daughters of God)

There is danger of your slighting him too long. Your time is taken up with the vanities of the world, and you seldom retain thoughts that you have a soul to save or lose. Have you forgotten that there is one who was wounded for your transgressions and bruised for your iniquities? One who is now pleading with his Father, and presenting his wounded hands and feet, and pierced side and spilt blood, and pleads with him to spare you a little longer; for he hung upon the cross to redeem you. O, what love! what unbounded love and condescension the Son of God manifested for us. He died to give life to those who were his enemies! {YI January 1, 1854, par. 4}

They should educate the tongue to speak of those things which are pure and lovely, and discipline the soul to anticipate the precious things of heaven. The less cheap conversation we indulge in, the better. Let your words be pure and sincere; educate the thoughts to dwell upon heavenly themes; educate the tongue to avoid vain trifling, jesting, and joking; and seek to be clean and holy in all manner of conversation, realizing that you are fitting up for the future, immortal life. You have a soul to save or to lose, and it is your privilege and duty to conduct your lives in this probationary time in such a way that you will have a right to the immortal inheritance. {YI August 3, 1893, par. 1}

"Brother Prismall, you have a soul to save, or a soul to lose, just as though you were the only person in existence. The question of the salvation of your soul is a matter between you and your God. Turn away from the short-comings of your brethren and sisters. You have an individual case pending in the courts of heaven. Have (57) you secured the Advocate to plead for you? EA 286.1

"If we have shunned the truth to save our lives, then we shall lose eternal life. We have a soul to save or to lose. 4LtMs, Ms 44, 1886, par. 18

"There is danger of your slighting him too long. Your time is taken up with the vanities of the world, and you seldom retain thoughts that you have a soul to save or lose. Have you forgotten that there is one who was wounded for your transgressions and bruised for your iniquities? One who is now pleading with his Father, YI January 1, 1854, par. 4

"Let your words be pure and sincere; educate the thoughts to dwell upon heavenly themes; educate the tongue to avoid vain trifling, jesting, and joking; and seek to be clean and holy in all manner of conversation, realizing that you are fitting up for the future, immortal life. You have a soul to save or to lose, YI August 3, 1893, par. 1

==================

spirit/soul (full identity) separated from body ---

"Our personal identity is preserved in the resurrection, though not the same particles of matter or material substance as went into the grave. The wondrous works of God are a mystery to man. The spirit, the character of man, is returned to God, there to be preserved. In the resurrection every man will have his own character. God in His own time will call forth the dead, giving again the breath of life, and bidding the dry bones live. The same form will come forth, but it will be free from disease and every defect. It lives again bearing the same individuality of features, so that friend will recognize friend. There is no law of God in nature which shows that God gives back the same identical particles of matter which composed the body before death. God shall give the righteous dead a body that will please Him. 6BC 1093.2
Paul illustrates this subj 6BC 1093.3

The Lord has given me a view of other worlds. Wings were given me, and an angel attended me from the city to a place that was bright and glorious. The grass of the place was living green, and the birds there warbled a sweet song. The inhabitants of the place were of all sizes; they were noble, majestic, and lovely. They bore the express image of Jesus, and their countenances beamed with holy joy, expressive of the freedom and happiness of the place. I asked one of them why they were so much more lovely than those on the earth. The reply was, “We have lived in strict obedience to the commandments of God, and have not fallen by disobedience, like those on the earth.” Then I saw two trees, one looked much like the tree of life in the city. The fruit of both looked beautiful, but of one they could not eat. They had power to eat of both, but were forbidden to eat of one. Then my attending angel said to me, “None in this place have tasted of the forbidden tree; but if they should eat, they would fall.” Then I was taken to a world which had seven moons. There I saw good old Enoch, who had been translated. On his right arm he bore a glorious palm, and on each leaf was written “Victory.” Around his head was a dazzling white wreath, and leaves on the wreath, and in the middle of each leaf was written “Purity,” and around the wreath were stones of various colors, that shone brighter than the stars, and cast a reflection upon the letters and magnified them. On the back part of his head was a bow that confined the wreath, and upon the bow was written “Holiness.” Above the wreath was a lovely crown that shone brighter than the sun. I asked him if this was the place he was taken to from the earth. He said, “It is not; the city is my home, and I have come to visit this place.” He moved about the place as if perfectly at home. I begged of my attending angel to let me remain in that place. I could not bear the thought of coming back to this dark world again. Then the angel said, “You must go back, and if you are faithful, you, with the 144,000, shall have the privilege of visiting all the worlds and viewing the handiwork of God.” {EW 39.3}

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Shut Door Chronology​

Compiled by Brother Anderson

1844​	October 22	Great Disappointment. Christ fails to return on the date predicted by William Miller.
	December	Most Millerites have returned to their previous churches. Some continue to insist the movement was correct. They teach: Jesus entered the Most Holy Place on Oct. 22, 1844. Jesus fulfilled the parable of the ten virgins where the Bridegroom "enters in" with the five ready virgins. The door of salvation has been "shut" to those who were not part of the 1844 Millerite movement. They are now in a "testing time" and Jesus will come within one year.
	December 11	William Miller writes, "We have done our work in warning sinners and in trying to awake a formal church. God in his providence has shut the door; we can only stir up one another to be patient." (Advent Herald, Dec. 11, 1844).
1845​	Jan. - Dec.	Ellen White begins having visions regarding the "shut door." One who witnessed her visions in his home, John Megquier, wrote: "We well know the course of Ellen G. White, the visionist, while in the state of Maine. About the first visions she had were at my house in Poland. She said that God had told her in vision that the door of mercy had closed, and there was no more chance for the world." (The True Sabbath, by Miles Grant, p. 70) Mrs. L.S. Burdick was well acquainted with Mrs. White. She wrote: "I became acquainted with James White and Ellen Harmon (now Mrs. White) early in 1845. . . Ellen was having what was called visions: said that God had shown her in vision that Jesus Christ arose and on the tenth day of the seventh month, 1844, shut the door of mercy; had left forever the mediatorial throne; the whole world was doomed and lost; and there never could be another sinner saved." (The True Sabbath, p. 72).
	February 7	O.R.L. Crosier publishes his understanding of Christ entering the Most Holy Place on Oct. 22, 1844, in the Day Star. Mrs. White later endorses this publication as "true light."
	February 19	William Miller expresses his belief that no sinners have been converted on the earth during the last five months: "I have not seen a genuine conversion since [Oct. 22, 1844]." Voice of Truth, Feb. 19, 1845.
	April	Joshua Himes cautions that the "shut door" doctrine prevents believers from "exercis[ing] benevolent feelings towards sinners, with a view to save them, so that that most essential element of the Spirit of Christ, and of Christian character, is annihilated." Morning Watch, June 12, 1845, p. 192.
1846​	April 20	Otis Nichols, a believer in Ellen White and a witness to her visions, writes to William Miller: "Her message...encouraged them to hold on to the faith, and the seventh month movement; and that our work was done for the nominal church and the world, and what remained to be done was for the household of faith."
	Fall	Joseph Bates meets Ellen and James White. They accept Bates' teaching that the Day of Atonement would last seven years, ending in the fall of 1851. Bates later wrote out his theories: "The seven spots of blood on the Golden Altar and before the mercy seat, I fully believe, represent the duration of the judicial proceedings on the living saints in the Most Holy, all of which time they will be in their affliction, even seven years; God by his voice will deliver them, 'for it is the blood that maketh the atonement for the soul' (Lev. 17:11). Then the number seven will finish the day of atonement. (The Typical and Anti-typical Sanctuary, p. 10, 1850)
1847​	April	James White published "A Word to the Little Flock." In it we find: Ellen White has a vision showing the Advent people walking on a path toward heaven. She saw some fall of the path and she wrote of them: "It was just as impossible for them to get on the path again and go to the City, as all the wicked world which God had rejected." James White: "From the ascension, to the shutting of the door, Oct. 1844, Jesus stood with wide-spread arms of love, and mercy; ready to receive, and plead the cause of every sinner, who would come to God by him. On the 10th day of the 7th month, 1844, he passed into the Holy of Holies, where he has since been a merciful 'high priest over the house of God.' "
1848​	Jan. - Dec.	Many of the Millerites give up the "shut door" teaching by the end of the year. O.R.L. Crosier, the originator of the SDA teaching on the Sanctuary tells of his experience in 1848: "I kept the seventh day nearly a year, about 1848. In 1846 I explained the idea of the sanctuary in an article in an extra number of the Day Star, Cincinnati, O. The object of that article was to support the theory that the door of mercy was shut, a theory which I, and nearly all Adventists who had adopted William Miller's views, held from 1844 to 1848. Yes, I know that Ellen G. Harmon - now Mrs. White - held that shut-door theory at that time."
	Nov. 18	Ellen White implies the sealing was in progress: "The time of trouble has commenced, the reason why the four winds have not been let go, for the saints are not all sealed..." (Joseph Bates, The Seal of the Living God, pp. 24-26, quoting a vision Ellen G. White had in Dorchester)
1849​		Joseph Bates announces the time of trouble has begun: "And now the time of trouble has began..." (The Seal of the Living God, 1849)
	March 24	Mrs. White receives visions in Topsham, Maine, that confirm belief in the shut door: "God gave me two visions while there, much to the comfort and strength of the brethren and sisters. Brother Stowell was established in the shut door and all the present truth he had doubted." (Manuscript Releases, Vol. 5, p. 93)
	June 30	Remarks written down from Ellen White's "vision" in Rocky Hill, Connecticut: "The sealing work will soon be done." (Manuscript 6, 1849, released in 2014 in The Ellen G. White Letters and Manuscripts, vol. 1, p. 177)
	August	Ellen White places the Shut Door doctrine as a central teaching of the church, the message of the Testimony of Jesus: "There I was shown that the commandments of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, relating to the shut door, could not be separated..." Later in the same article an angel describes the condition of sinners to her: "My accompanying angel bade me look for the travail of soul for sinners as used to be. I looked, but could not see it; for the time for their salvation is past." (Present Truth, August, 1849).
	September	A local pestilence is seen as a fulfillment of the end of the world. Mrs. White predicts this pestilence will become widespread: "What we have seen and heard of the pestilence, is but the beginning of what we shall see and hear. Soon the dead and dying will be all around us." (Present Truth, Sept. 1849).
	December	David Arnold writes in the Present Truth: "Therefore, we are brought, by the force of circumstances, and the fulfillment of events, to the irresistible conclusion that, on the tenth day of the seventh month, (Jewish time,) in the autumn of 1844, Christ did close his daily, or continual ministration or mediation in the first apartment of the heavenly sanctuary, and SHUT THE DOOR, which no man can open; and opened a door, in the second apartment, or Holiest of all, which no man can shut, (see Rev.iii,7,8,) and passed within the second veil, bearing before the Father, on the breast-plate of judgment, all for whom he is now acting as intercessor." (Present Truth, Dec. 1849)
1850​	February 10	The "shut door" is opened a crack to allow in those people who were Christians in 1844 but never heard Miller's message. In her letter to Brother and Sister Collins, Feb. 10, 1850, Mrs. White says "Souls are coming out upon the truth all around here. They are those who have not heard the Advent doctrine..."
	April	Ellen White states: "The mighty shaking has commenced." (Present Truth, April, 1850)
	April	The "shut door" is cracked open a little further to let the children of the saints enter: "As they [little children] were then [1844] in a state of innocence, they were entitled to a record upon the breastplate of judgment as much as those who had sinned and received pardon; and are, therefore subjects of the present intercession of our great high priest" (Present Truth, April, 1850).
	April	James White writes that God's people have already left Babylon [Protestant churches]: "Babylon, the nominal church is fallen. God's people have come out of her. She is now the 'synagogue of Satan' (Rev. 3:9). 'The habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and the cage of every unclean and hateful bird' (Rev. 18:2)." (Present Truth, April, 1850)
	May	James White writes: "But says the objector - 'The door of mercy will not be closed until Jesus comes.' We do not read of such a door as 'the door of mercy' in the Bible; neither do we teach that such a door was shut in 1844. God's 'mercy endureth for ever.' See Ps.cxxxvi; cvi,1; cxviii,1. He is still merciful to his saints, and ever will be; and Jesus is still their advocate and priest. But the sinner, to whom Jesus had stretched out his arms all the day long, and who had rejected the offers of salvation, was left without an advocate, when Jesus passed from the Holy Place, and shut that door in 1844." (Present Truth, May, 1850)
	June 27	Mrs. White has a vision of the soon return of Christ: "My accompanying angel said, 'Time is almost finished. Get ready, get ready, get ready.' . . . now time is almost finished. . . and what we have been years learning, they will have to learn in a few months." (Early Writings, pp. 64-67).
	July 29	Miss Sarah B. Harmon, older sister of Mrs. White, in a letter written from Brookfield, N.Y., to Mrs. P.D. Lawrence, July 29/30, 1850, said: "I believe this is the last winter we shall see before Jesus, our great High Priest, comes out. Oh, let us live for God and sacrifice for him faithfully."
	August 24	Ellen White writes in a letter regarding the Present Truth magazine: "...the lines that were being published were written in the Spirit of God, and would rejoice the hearts of the trusting ones, and Satan knew it would hurt his cause because it would be seen by these testimonies that most of the Advent people once believed as we do that there was a shut door in '44. And to have the plain, clean truth come out in the paper . . . would cause many to decide for the truth and to take a firm and unyielding stand for God and His truth." (Manuscript 7, 1850)
	August	The "shut door" was opened another crack to let in Herman Churchill, a man who was unconverted in 1844. According to General Conference president George Butler, the Adventists were "quite surprised" a non-believer would manifest interest in their message!
	September	Mrs. White announces time is almost finished: "Some are looking too far off for the coming of the Lord. Time has continued a few years longer than they expected, therefore they think it may continue a few years more. . . I saw that the time for Jesus to be in the Holy Place was nearly finished, and that time can not last but a little longer." (Early Writings, p. 58, ed. 1907)
	December	Sister White says that to oppose the Shut Door doctrine is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit: "Then I saw the Laodiceans [first-day Adventists].... Dare they admit that the door is shut? The sin against the Holy Ghost was to ascribe to Satan what belongs to God or what the Holy Ghost has done. They said the shut door was of the devil and now admit it is against their own lives. They shall die the death." (Ms 11, 1850, pp. 3, 4)
1851​	June 21	Mrs. White's vision at Camden, NY: "Then I saw that Jesus prayed for his enemies; but that should not cause us to pray for the wicked world, whom God has rejected. When he prayed for his enemies, there was hope for them, and they could be benefited and saved by his prayers, and also after he was a mediator in the outer apartment for the whole world; but now his spirit and sympathy were withdrawn from the world; and our sympathy must be with Jesus, and must be withdrawn from the ungodly."
	August 19	Joseph Bates wrote: "We understand that he [Christ] was a Mediator for all the world, ministering in the Holy Place (Heb. 9:26), in the Tabernacle called the Sanctuary, from the day of Pentecost (A.D. 31) until his appointed time, the end of the twenty-three hundred days, or years - the fall of 1844. At this point of time, then, the door was shut against the Sardis church [the Protestant church] and the wicked world." (Review and Herald, Aug. 19, 1851)
	August	James and Ellen White publish "Experience and Views," a little pamphlet of 64 pages. No reference is made in this to "A Word to the Little Flock," nor to Present Truth, although all but seven introductory pages of "Experience and Views" is copied word for word from these two publications. All references to the "shut door" were omitted from the publication.
1853​		James White admits the shut door has opened slightly: "While the great work of saving men closed with the 2300 days, a few are now coming to Christ..." (Review and Herald, No. 3, p. 176)

After 1851 - Shut Door Doctrine Disappears​

The Shut Door doctrine--which Mrs. White claimed was a part of the Testimony of Jesus--was reinterpreted by the Whites to mean that only those who rejected the 1844 message had the door of probation shut on them. After 1851, the Shut Door doctrine--one of the central doctrines of the early Adventists--disappeared quickly from their writings. Nearly all new Adventists never heard of it nor knew that their prophet had seen it in vision.

SDA Professor Bert Haloviak summed it up well:

"Ellen White's visionary experiences validated the community's understanding of shut-door theology. On at least seven occasions she invoked visions endorsing the shut door. In 1850 she was instructed during a vision to urge her husband to publish the shut-door statements that Millerite Adventist leaders had made in 1844. Given the pre-disapppointment theological perspective of that time, these statements exhibit the most extreme interpretations of shut-door theology. In addition, in 1850 Ellen White received a vision about the Adventist preacher Joseph Baker, a former member of the Christian Connection: 'I saw that Brother Baker must not sink down, that God had a work for him to do, not to feed the dogs, but the starving sheep, feed the sheep, feed the sheep, and my accompanying angel. It was melting weeping time when I related the vision.'"
(Bert Haloviak, "Practical Theology," Ellen Harmon White: American Prophet (NY: Oxford University Press, 2014), p. 166)

Ellen White did endorse the Shut Door. Bob Misinformed people again,

 

[BobRyan]

Bob you are just Lying and Misinforming people

I provided the actual quotes that refuted your claims.

1. you know nothing about Joseph Bates. This is common knowledge. He was called "Bitter Bates" for a reason

Bates was not "Dissfelllowshipped for believing Ellen White" and we both know it.

2. Bob you have ignored & lied again Bob. Shut Door Chornology demonstrates other wise

You provide zero quotes of Ellen White stating that God told her all of Christianity was shut out of salvation in 1844 except for Millerites who had accepted William Miller's 1844 prediction -- I think we both know that as well.

3. Again Bob you are lying and you show your disrespect for others by down playing my credentials .

I never said anything about your "credentials" other than the more generic fact that a degree in theology does not make one infallible - a statement that even you affirm.

I have more knowledge then you do about SDA teaching

that has not yet been demonstrated. I keep asking you to post actual facts. Feel free to do it.

.and worked hard to earn the credentials something you did not. I have put in more time then you have on these matters.

How would you know???

State an actual fact please.

4. the term soul as used in the quotes above do not refer to something seperate from the body.

false -

What is "True" is that the following statement of yours

Adventist Heretic said:

EGW NEVER endorse SOUL SLEEP, she did not believe you had a soul, she believed you ARE a soul.

already fully debunked the idea that she did not teach that a person "HAS a soul" -- #301

your false statement does not even survive the quotes in this post

"Brother Prismall, you have a soul to save, or a soul to lose, just as though you were the only person in existence. The question of the salvation of your soul is a matter between you and your God. Turn away from the short-comings of your brethren and sisters. You have an individual case pending in the courts of heaven. Have (57) you secured the Advocate to plead for you? EA 286.1

"If we have shunned the truth to save our lives, then we shall lose eternal life. We have a soul to save or to lose. 4LtMs, Ms 44, 1886, par. 18

"There is danger of your slighting him too long. Your time is taken up with the vanities of the world, and you seldom retain thoughts that you have a soul to save or lose. Have you forgotten that there is one who was wounded for your transgressions and bruised for your iniquities? One who is now pleading with his Father, YI January 1, 1854, par. 4

"Let your words be pure and sincere; educate the thoughts to dwell upon heavenly themes; educate the tongue to avoid vain trifling, jesting, and joking; and seek to be clean and holy in all manner of conversation, realizing that you are fitting up for the future, immortal life. You have a soul to save or to lose, YI August 3, 1893, par. 1

==================

spirit/soul (full identity) separated from body ---

"Our personal identity is preserved in the resurrection, though not the same particles of matter or material substance as went into the grave. The wondrous works of God are a mystery to man. The spirit, the character of man, is returned to God, there to be preserved. In the resurrection every man will have his own character. God in His own time will call forth the dead, giving again the breath of life, and bidding the dry bones live. The same form will come forth, but it will be free from disease and every defect. It lives again bearing the same individuality of features, so that friend will recognize friend. There is no law of God in nature which shows that God gives back the same identical particles of matter which composed the body before death. God shall give the righteous dead a body that will please Him. 6BC 1093.2
Paul illustrates this subj 6BC 1093.3

The Lord has given me a view of other worlds. Wings were given me, and an angel attended me from the city to a place that was bright and glorious. The grass of the place was living green, and the birds there warbled a sweet song. The inhabitants of the place were of all sizes; they were noble, majestic, and lovely. They bore the express image of Jesus, and their countenances beamed with holy joy, expressive of the freedom and happiness of the place. I asked one of them why they were so much more lovely than those on the earth. The reply was, “We have lived in strict obedience to the commandments of God, and have not fallen by disobedience, like those on the earth.” Then I saw two trees, one looked much like the tree of life in the city. The fruit of both looked beautiful, but of one they could not eat. They had power to eat of both, but were forbidden to eat of one. Then my attending angel said to me, “None in this place have tasted of the forbidden tree; but if they should eat, they would fall.” Then I was taken to a world which had seven moons. There I saw good old Enoch, who had been translated. On his right arm he bore a glorious palm, and on each leaf was written “Victory.” Around his head was a dazzling white wreath, and leaves on the wreath, and in the middle of each leaf was written “Purity,” and around the wreath were stones of various colors, that shone brighter than the stars, and cast a reflection upon the letters and magnified them. On the back part of his head was a bow that confined the wreath, and upon the bow was written “Holiness.” Above the wreath was a lovely crown that shone brighter than the sun. I asked him if this was the place he was taken to from the earth. He said, “It is not; the city is my home, and I have come to visit this place.” He moved about the place as if perfectly at home. I begged of my attending angel to let me remain in that place. I could not bear the thought of coming back to this dark world again. Then the angel said, “You must go back, and if you are faithful, you, with the 144,000, shall have the privilege of visiting all the worlds and viewing the handiwork of God.” {EW 39.3}

"The Life-giver will call up His purchased possession in the first resurrection, and until that triumphant hour, when the last trump shall sound and the vast army shall come forth to eternal victory, every sleeping saint will be kept in safety and will be guarded as a precious jewel, who is known to God by name. By the power of the Saviour that dwelt in them while living and because they were partakers of the divine nature, they are brought forth from the dead.79SDA Bible Commentary 4:1143​

​

"Our personal identity is preserved in the resurrection, though not the same particles of matter or material substance as went into the grave. The wondrous works of God are a mystery to man. The spirit, the character of man is returned to God there to be preserved. In the resurrection every man will have his own character. God in His own time will call forth the dead, giving again the breath of life, and bidding the dry bones live. The same form will come forth, but it will be free from disease and every defect. It lives again bearing the same individuality of features, so that friend will recognize friend. There is no law of God in nature which shows that God gives back the same identical particles of matter which composed the body before death. God shall give the righteous dead a body that will please Him. 15LtMs, Ms 76, 1900, par. 10 , 6BC 1093.2, Hvn 40.1, FLB 185.4​

There we see that the body of the person is distinctly something they HAVE and it can be traded out for a new one , entirely different, not the same substance, not the same particles of matter - and STILL be the SAME person because the full identify of the person is what goes back to God at death when the spirit goes to God who gave it - the soul is something we "HAVE" in that context.

 

[BobRyan]

Ellen White did endorse the Shut Door. Bob Misinformed people again,

your slight of hand ... noted

Adventist Heretic said:

here is the chronology of the Shut door Shut Door Chornology
notice EGW grand vision of the path which the mural was in the GC office was given about shut door.

Here are facts --

"I hereby testify in the fear of God that the charges of Miles Grant, of Mrs. Burdick, and others published in the Crisis are not true. The statements in reference to my course in forty-four are false. {1SM 74.1}
"With my brethren and sisters, after the time passed in forty-four I did believe no more sinners would be converted. But I never had a vision that no more sinners would be converted. And am clear and free to state no one has ever heard me say or has read from my pen statements which will justify them in the charges they have made against me upon this point. {1SM 74.2}

The early "shut door" idea in 1844 was that no more sinners could be converted since the world rejected the message and Christ was on his way to Earth for the saints. (like our current view of Rev 15:8 and REv 16 during the time of the plagues in the future).

Ellen White states she believed that in 1844 but never claimed God showed her that this was the case in vision as some falsely claim.

Years later She had a vision of an open and shut door and said it was part of a call for world wide evangelism as part of the 3 angel's messages in Rev 14 , but not that this meant probation closed for the world. Let her further explain.


"I never have stated or written that the world was doomed or damned. I never have under any circumstances used this language to any one, however sinful. I have ever had messages of reproof for those who used these harsh expressions."--Letter 2, 1874. {1SM 74.4}

=================== 1847 letter

“While in Exeter, Maine, in meeting with Israel Dammon, James, and many others, many of them did not believe in a shut door. I suffered much at the commencement of the meeting. Unbelief seemed to be on every hand. There was one sister there that was called very spiritual. She had traveled and been a powerful preacher the most of the time for twenty years. She had been truly a mother in Israel. But a division had risen in the band on the shut door. She had great sympathy, and could not believe the door was shut. (I had known nothing of their differences.) Sister Durben [Dearborn?] got up to talk. I felt very, very sad. At length my soul seemed to be in an agony, and while she was talking I fell from my chair to the floor. It was then I had a view of Jesus rising from His mediatorial throne and going to the holiest as Bridegroom to receive His kingdom. They were all deeply interested in the view. They all said it was entirely new to them. The Lord worked in mighty power setting the truth home to their hearts. Sister Durben [Dearborn?] knew what the power of the Lord was, for she had felt it many times; and a short time after I fell she was struck down and fell to the floor, crying to God to have mercy on her. When I came out of vision, my ears were saluted with Sister Durben's [Dearborn's] singing and shouting with a loud voice. Most of them received the vision, and were settled upon the shut door. Previous to this I had no light on the coming of the Bridegroom, but had expected Him to this earth to deliver His people on the tenth day of the seventh month. I did not hear a lecture or a word in any way relating to the Bridegroom's going to the holiest. “1LtMs, Lt 3, 1847, par. 7

So in 1847 she reports an event in the past where this idea of an open door in the most holy place and a shut door in the holy place was promoted as a result of a direct vision from God.

=================== 1849
1LtMs, Lt 5, 1849

Hastings, Brother and Sister
Milton, Massachusetts
April 21, 1849
Portions of this letter are published in 1MR 390; 5MR 93-94, 200. See also Annotations.

“I saw the commandments of God and shut door could not be separated. I saw [that] the time for the commandments of God to shine out to His people was when the door was opened in the inner apartment of the heavenly sanctuary in 1844. Then Jesus rose up and shut the door in the outer apartment and opened the door in the inner apartment and passed into the Most Holy Place, and the faith of Israel now reaches within the second veil where Jesus now stands by the ark. I saw that Jesus had shut the door in the Holy Place and no man can open it, and that He had opened the door in the Most Holy Place and no man can shut it; and that since Jesus had opened the door in the Most Holy Place the commandments have been shining out and God has been testing His people on the holy Sabbath… 1LtMs, Lt 5, 1849, par. 8

CONTEXT: - the term "shut door" in 1849 (as they were then promoting it) was a reference to shutting the door in the Holy Place in heaven's sanctuary and OPENING THE DOOR to Christ's continued mediatorial ministry in the heavenly sanctuary in the Most Holy Place.

==================

Notice how post 303 outlines - totally dismiss the devastating historic facts pointed out here regarding the term "shut door" as it came to be known in 1847 and 1849

post 303 ignores every detail we see in the above -- replacing it all with just this statement -- "1849 Mrs. White receives visions in Topsham, Maine, that confirm belief in the shut door: "God gave me two visions while there, much to the comfort and strength of the brethren and sisters. Brother Stowell was established in the shut door and all the present truth he had doubted." (Manuscript Releases, Vol. 5, p. 93)


Now NOTICE the "out of context snips' you find in the following post - #303

It ignores the fact that the "shut door" term had a very specific meaning in 1847 and pointed out again in April of 1849 -- so then not at all what the false-accusation crowd would have wished for.

So then what is the detailed insightful response we might have expected??

Ellen White did endorse the Shut Door. Bob Misinformed people again,

ok I think that is the response we may have expected -- to the details as we all can see them

Another great examples of missing these bombshell details from 1847 and 1849 - direct quotes from Ellen White on the very topic -- as does your "source" professor in post 303.

As far as the shutdoor goes I gave you with the actual chronology of the statements and you ignored them again. That is straight up dishonesty.

There is no point in trying to speak to you Bob .

Your false accusation and the flawed snip-quotes in your professor's outline don't survive even the details in this one post alone.

You need facts that are informed about context and meaning -- such that they represent actual history -- in order to make a point.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

I provided the actual quotes that refuted your claims.

Bates was not "Dissfelllowshipped for believing Ellen White" and we both know it.

You provide zero quotes of Ellen White stating that God told her all of Christianity was shut out of salvation in 1844 except for Millerites who had accepted William Miller's 1844 prediction -- I think we both know that as well.

I never said anything about your "credentials" other than the more generic fact that a degree in theology does not make one infallible - a statement that even you affirm.

that has not yet been demonstrated. I keep asking you to post actual facts. Feel free to do it.

I would you know???

State an actual fact please.

false -

What is "True" is that the following statement of yours




does not survive the quotes in this post


"The Life-giver will call up His purchased possession in the first resurrection, and until that triumphant hour, when the last trump shall sound and the vast army shall come forth to eternal victory, every sleeping saint will be kept in safety and will be guarded as a precious jewel, who is known to God by name. By the power of the Saviour that dwelt in them while living and because they were partakers of the divine nature, they are brought forth from the dead.79SDA Bible Commentary 4:1143

"Our personal identity is preserved in the resurrection, though not the same particles of matter or material substance as went into the grave. The wondrous works of God are a mystery to man. The spirit, the character of man is returned to God there to be preserved. In the resurrection every man will have his own character. God in His own time will call forth the dead, giving again the breath of life, and bidding the dry bones live. The same form will come forth, but it will be free from disease and every defect. It lives again bearing the same individuality of features, so that friend will recognize friend. There is no law of God in nature which shows that God gives back the same identical particles of matter which composed the body before death. God shall give the righteous dead a body that will please Him. 15LtMs, Ms 76, 1900, par. 10 , 6BC 1093.2, Hvn 40.1, FLB 185.4

There we see that the body of the person is distinctly something they HAVE and it can be traded out for a new one , entirely different, not the same substance, not the same particles of matter - and STILL be the SAME person because the full identify of the person is what goes back to God at death with the spirit returns to God who gave it - the soul is something we "HAVE" in that conte

You are gas lighting Bob. You didn't refute anything you just simply quoted things that were in favor of your view. I actually showed how your view was invalid from the scripture. And that you were ignoring certain pieces of information like you always do.

As far as Joseph Bates goes I never said he was disfellowshipped I said he lost his leadership position. Again misinforming and lying to people bob you need to do better. If You actually knew what you were talking about you wouldn't be so confident.

As far as the shutdoor goes I gave you with the actual chronology of the statements and you ignored them again. That is straight up dishonesty.

There is no point in trying to speak to you Bob you simply are a man who was hell-bent on having your way regardless of what the scripture says regardless of where the evidence goes. You're not looking for truth you're looking to maintain your opinion at all cost. You even go so far as to make up statements about what the denomination says when it doesn't say that. You have nothing and you cannot counter anything that's being said. As long as you're looking through the lens of Ellen White you will never find the truth.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Bye Bye Bob, we're not here to talk about doctrinal issues we're here to talk about Ellen White's plagiarism and her issues of authority. Since you can't seem to keep it on topic. Nor can you actually respond to what is posted. I will not speak to you anymore.

Good Day Sir.

 

[BobRyan]

Bye Bye Bob,

bye.

 

[BobRyan]

You are gas lighting Bob. You didn't refute anything you just simply quoted things

that were in favor of your view. I actually showed how your view was invalid from the scripture.

I corrected your wild statement that Ellen White had no concept of body vs soul where a person HAS a soul and showed also her own claims to having a body while in vision that is not her body on Earth - as well as her claim that the resurrected body is not at all the body we have in this life so - different bodies... but SAME person due to the full identity of the person in the spirit/soul that goes to God at death.

Your response is to ignore all the details - and then say you want a Bible discussion. (Which I am happy to do of course when it comes to the Bible - but dismissing all the details is not something I am inclined to do).

As far as Joseph Bates goes I never said he was disfellowshipped I said he lost his leadership position.

WHOAh -- lets see that one again.. instant replay. I thought you said he was disfellowshipped "because he listened to EGW endorsment".

You posted this --

Adventist Heretic said:
Now you are just strait up lying.
Ask Joseph Bates he lost his leadership because he listen to EGW endorsment.

I posted this -- "false" --#301

which of course it is still false even though it says "lost leadership because he listened to EGW endorsement " rather than "disfellowshipped because he listened to EGW endorsement" .

I don't know of any "disfellowshipped because he listened to EGW" statement by any SDA congregation at all.
I don't know of any "lost job/leadership/credentials because he listened to EGW" statement from any conference or union or Division

 

[BobRyan]

yes Bob you can produce a lot of material when you have people writing your works for you, not proof of anything. I could do the same thing , you could do the same thing.

yeah... like 'you' could have written Desire of Ages, Steps to Christ, Prophets and Kings, Acts of the Apostles.

Please be serious.

Your first flat out false-accusation was that some huge amount of Testimonies is done by the time James White dies and only some tiny tid bit remains since James White is the "source" of inspiration for Ellen White.

like this:

Adventist Heretic said:
1. When you look at the testimonies and you see how many were written in the life of James White over 6 volumes. when he dies the Holy Spirit stops sending messages by 50% even though EGW lived over almost equal time as a widowed women.

(Interesting way you comment on a senior citizen in her mid 60's arguing that in her 70's and 80's she was not as prolific as in her 20's,30's, 40's, 50's and early 60's.)

then when that is totally debunked (here #295 ) as flat out false-accusation - your solution above is that "you could have " done all that if you only had the staff??

So which is it - ?? your first false claim or your second one? Which one are you going with ?

 

[Adventist Dissident]

yeah... like 'you' could have written Desire of Ages, Steps to Christ, Prophets and Kings, Acts of the Apostles.

Please be serious.

Your first flat out false-accusation was that some huge amount of Testimonies is done by the time James White dies and only some tiny tid bit remains since James White is the "source" of inspiration for Ellen White.

like this:


(Interesting way you comment on a senior citizen in her mid 60's arguing that in her 70's and 70's she was not as prolific as in her 20's,30's, 40's, 50's and early 60's.)

then when that is totally debunked (here #295 ) as flat out false-accusation - your solution above is that "you could have " done all that if you only had the staff??

So which is it - ?? your first false claim or your second one? Which one are you going with ?

dishonest bob strikes again. I was talking about the Testimonies vol 1-9. That was made plain in the text. vol.1-6 were witten in the Life time of James White. vol 7-9 were written in the second 30+ years of her life. Why the drop off.
You shifted the focus to her other works which were not the topic of discussion. So Dishonest. then you want to blame me for answering your change of the subject. So Dishonest.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

like I said I will not comment any further, you will be left talking to yourself. You have shown yourself to be dishonest.

Good Day Sir.

 

[BobRyan]

dishonest bob strikes again. I was talking about the Testimonies vol 1-9. That was made plain in the text. vol.1-6 were witten in the Life time of James White. vol 7-9 were written in the second 30+ years of her life.

You were already shown that that was also false.

Only Testimonies 1-4 were written before 1881. James White dies in 1881. Volumes 5,6,7,8,9 come after James White dies Aug 6,1881.

Volume 5 begins with Testimony 31 (1882) page 9 of Vol 5, then goes to Testimony 32 (1885) p 249 in that same volume.

You need to notice "the details" in the conversation to make it interesting.

So far each of your posts relies more on "proof by name-calling" than actual facts.

You shifted the focus to her other works which were not in dispute. So Dishonest.

You were the one saying that the Holy Spirit must have declined or something to account for her having less material since your false accusation was that James White was her real source and without him - not much by way of Holy Spirit messages.

Do you need to be reminded again of your exact form of accusation?

like this:

Adventist Heretic said:
1. When you look at the testimonies and you see how many were written in the life of James White over 6 volumes. when he dies the Holy Spirit stops sending messages by 50% even though EGW lived over almost equal time as a widowed women.

(as noted here #295 your facts were totally loused up to the point of making 'the opposite point' in actual fact.

 

[BobRyan]

like I said I will not comment any further, you will be left talking to yourself.

This thread only has about 8000 views so far - so you may be right that you and I are the only ones viewing it ... OR you could be sadly mistaken on yet another fact.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

You were already shown that that was also false.

Only Testimonies 1-4 were written before 1881. James White dies in 1881. Volumes 5,6,7,8,9 come after James White dies Aug 6,1881.

Volume 5 begins with Testimony 31 (1882) page 9 of Vol 5, then goes to Testimony 32 (1885) p 249 in that same volume.

You need to notice "the details" in the conversation to make it interesting.

So far each of your posts relies more on "proof by name-calling" than actual facts.

You were the one saying that the Holy Spirit must have declined or something to account for her having less material since your false accusation was that James White was her real source and without him - not much by way of Holy Spirit messages.

Do you need to be reminded again of your exact form of accusation?

like this:


(as noted here #295 your facts were totally loused up to the point of making 'the opposite point' in actual fact.

you're lying bob, it clearly references the testimonies, her other writings.

 

[BobRyan]

you're lying bob, it clearly references the testimonies, her other writings.

1. you got your facts wrong EVEN when it comes to "just the Testimonies" as was proven here - #313.
2. As for "her other writings" well you are wayyy underwater on that as well -as we saw here #295
3. You attacked the Holy Spirit in your wild claim as Ellen White had no other source but James so when he died the Holy Spirit must have sent 50% less messages (since you surmizing that Ellen White only had James as her source for inspired writing and NOT the actual Holy Spi9rit). You even claimed you alone could do all that inspired writing if only you had Ellen White's editors at your assistance.

The idea that you can clean that up by hurling more name calling at me .. is not logical

 

[BobRyan]

You know she made a prediction about people being alive that failed. That according to scripture disquallifes her as a prophet right there

Testimonies for the Church, volume 1, pages 131, 132, which reads:

"I was shown the company present at the conference. Said the angel: Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus. Solemn words were these, spoken by the angel."(1856)

1. All are Dead.

1. You are pretty skilled at switching topics when your accusations are proven to fail - in actual facts listed in the post. I have to hand that to you.

2. Your latest "switch" ignores the Jeremiah 18 detail that shows us why Jonah is not a false prophet regarding Nineveh and why John the baptizer is not a false prophet regarding Christ. -- Lets read the text instead of simply ignoring "another detail" then "switching to another topic" when your claims fail after close review of actual facts.

Jer 18:
5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

Job predicts doom - but it does not happen -- Nineveh is spared - yet Job is a true prophet and the Jer 18 principle of conditional prophecy explains the result.

John predicts the Messiah as a liberator from all earthly oppressors who destroys the wicked and sets up his kingdom - but that does not happen, instead the Jews reject their own Messiah and John finally sends a message to Christ saying "are you the one we seek - or do we seek another?".

"No condition" was mentioned by Jonah – Jonah complained bitterly against his prophecy being conditional
"No condition" was mentioned by John or his father – John later complains as he sees it all crumbling “are you the one we seek or do we seek another?”
"no condition" was stated by Moses in Egypt when he promised them a land of milk and honey. He did not promise them "all of you from the age of 19 years and upward will die with me in the wilderness - so now... let's go do it".

In all three of these examples - these prophets not only mentioned no condition - they also struggled hard against their prophecy being conditional.

2. No condition was set for this prophecy to be fulfilled.

Indeed - but that sort of game does not work on someone who reads as noted above in the case of John and Jonah.

Jeremiah 18 does not say "prophecy is only conditional if the prophet brings it up each time". In fact Jonah was rather miffed that his prophecy could not help but be conditional.

You will need to do better.

You need more compelling attempts.

So far your false accusations are not even making it off the ground.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

1. You are pretty skilled and switching topics when your accusations are proven to fail - in actual facts listed in the post. I have to hand that to you.

2. Your latest "switch" ignores the Jeremiah 18 detail that shows us why Jonah is not a false prophet regarding Nineveh and why John the baptizer is not a false prophet regarding Christ. -- Lets read the text instead of simply ignoring "another detail" then "switching to another topic" when your claims fail after close review of actual facts.

Jer 18:
5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

Job predicts doom - but it does not happen -- Nineveh is spared - yet Job is a true prophet and the Jer 18 principle of conditional prophecy explains the result.

John predicts the Messiah as a liberator from all earthly oppressors who destroys the wicked and sets up his kingdom - but that does not happen, instead the Jews reject their own Messiah and John finally sends a message to Christ saying "are you the one we seek - or do we seek another?".

"No condition" was mentioned by Jonah
"No condition" was mentioned by John or his father --




Indeed - but that sort of game does not work on someone who reads as noted above in the case of John and Jonah.

Jeremiah 18 does not say "prophecy is only conditional if the prophet brings it up each time". In fact Jonah was rather miffed that his prophecy could not help but be conditional.

You will need to do better.

You need more compelling attempts.

So far your false accusations are not even making it off the ground.

that is what every false prophet and every failed prophecy does. The either say it was conditional or that God was merciful. They can never say they were wrong. But it is in your DNA to Lie and Deny. when millers prediction failed he admitted his error and gave up. EGW did not and since you support her you will not. You are Wrong plain and simple. Instead of quoting the SDA propaganda why don't you just come clean. it's easier on all of us. How long will you try to defend what cannot be defended? When will you just give up and move on? How many more years will you fight this battle? Seventh day Adventism is not dependant on EGW. Only the Errors and mistakes are.

 

[Leaf473]

Hi @BobRyan and anyone else reading,
I'm glad this idea has come up again.

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 18:8 - New American Standard Bible

if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I planned to bring on it.

www.biblegateway.com

Which nation was Ellen prophesying against? Or was she speaking against the whole world? Was there a great repenting?

 

[BobRyan]

Which nation was Ellen prophesying against?

Sadly for your question Jer 18 does not say that conditional prophecy does not apply to churches or individuals.

Saul is blessed by Samuel then later cursed.

The point remains.

 

[BobRyan]

Jer 18:
5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

Job predicts doom - but it does not happen -- Nineveh is spared - yet Job is a true prophet and the Jer 18 principle of conditional prophecy explains the result.

John predicts the Messiah as a liberator from all earthly oppressors who destroys the wicked and sets up his kingdom - but that does not happen, instead the Jews reject their own Messiah and John finally sends a message to Christ saying "are you the one we seek - or do we seek another?".

"No condition" was mentioned by Jonah
"No condition" was mentioned by John or his father --
"no condition" was stated by Moses in Egypt when he promised them a land of milk and honey. He did not promise them "all of you from the age of 19 years and upward will die with me in the wilderness - so now... let's go do it".

In all three of these examples - these prophets not only mentioned no condition - they also struggled hard against their prophecy being conditional.



Indeed - but that sort of game does not work on someone who reads as noted above in the case of John and Jonah.

Jeremiah 18 does not say "prophecy is only conditional if the prophet brings it up each time". In fact Jonah was rather miffed that his prophecy could not help but be conditional.

that is what every false prophet and every failed prophecy does.

deleting those scriptures because you want to go after this or that person claiming to be a prophet - is not "a solution" as we all know.

But it is in your DNA to Lie and Deny.

ad hominem rather than substance - does not work in open discussions like this ... you need a captive audience for that sort of thing.