New or Grew?

How did the universe get its age?


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ewq1938

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He created Wine that was old...


Nothing to suggest it was old wine. It was just very good wine which likely means a nice taste and high amount of alcohol.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Right, process. It is a process that has a beginning, middle, end. Just like everything else in creation. Why does the premise come up that God made it look old? Because it needs to fit a certain human presumption concerning scripture. Scripture and creation are not at odds. They are both God's. If it's painful to admit that one's preconceived notion doesn't fit the two, oh well. Work it out, but don't make God out to be a liar, a deceiver. If the rocks look old, the simple conclusion is they are. Seriously.
Not to argue the question of whether they are as old as the scientific community thinks they are, but i'm not arguing he made them look old. I'm arguing that he is able to make them actually old, and to do it in time that we can only describe as instantaneous.

This same argument goes for suffering --why would God take us through all this? --after all, couldn't he make it all be true as a finished product, the suffering already over with and completed? I say it is more than possible that he has done exactly that, but we timebound self-important fools that depend on our reasoning, can't yet see it that way.
 
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Mark Quayle

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No, It doesn't.

I don't mean to be crass, but this is a sore spot with me.

God's translators in 1611 did not put an "s" on "heaven".

The fact is, God created two more heavens (or "firmaments") later in the Week.

Paul warns about pluralizing words that shouldn't be pluralized.

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

But for the record, the Bible does not ... nor never has ... said:

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

My bad. I didn't consider the KJV as the exclusive Word of God. What does the Hebrew say?

But what does the 'Heaven' mean, anyhow? The fact the same word is used for another use does not mean this was not a reference to the universe, or to space.

To be fair, I think the whole question is bogus anyway --it doesn't matter-- God made it all, or he is not God. Whether six days or 15 billion years, I really don't care. God can do it, and not be lying nor be symbolic with it.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Either way, He made it old.

Why He made it old is known only to Him.

I suspect it has to do with the fact that Adam would have starved to death waiting for his fruit trees to grow.

(Okay ... I get it ... no death before the Fall. ;))
I agree, he made it old. That does not imply 6 days is not accurate.
 
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SkyWriting

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The universe is old because God created it old.2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:Looking at it from a purely scientific standpoint, however, can lead to the conclusion that it grew old over a period of time.What say you?Is the universe old because God created it old? or is it old because it grew old?

My answer depends on readers who can do math. My theory is that the creation of energy will effect time. So my math quiz is - can we solve this equation for time?
https%3A%2F%2Fhaygot.s3.amazonaws.com%3A443%2Fcheatsheet%2F31210_46154dc361324034886628f6efbe095d.png

If so then this could explain that increasing energy would create time. Or as AV says, Creation was old when it was created. Maths wizards, what ya say?
 
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SkyWriting

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God created Adam as a fully grown adult, rather than as a fetus that went through years of development to full maturity. It follows then that God created the world in the same fashion.

Or the story of the Creation of man is actually the story of how humans became born in Spirit from God's breathing into man. Animals without the "Breath of Life" are to be eaten. So there seems to be a cut-off point where humans became Spiirually man. At that point, they count. Adam and Eve, the first ones.

So the creation of man may be a Spiritual journey story. And this would happen to an "adult" Adam.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Nothing to suggest it was old wine. It was just very good wine which likely means a nice taste and high amount of alcohol.

Characteristics of a good vintage which cant be created in an instant.
 
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ewq1938

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Characteristics of a good vintage which cant be created in an instant.

Of course that can be created in an instant. An entire universe can be created in an instant. A good wine can't?
 
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coffee4u

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What scripture shows God created Adam as a fully grown adult?

He was given a wife. Children do not have wives. God would hardly tell a little boy that he was to name all the animals and rule over the earth, that was a man's job.
 
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coffee4u

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Whether six days or 15 billion years, I really don't care. God can do it, and not be lying nor be symbolic with it.

If it's 15 billion years old doesn't that mean there was death for 15 billion years, long before man even evolved?

If so why are we told that death is a result of sin? If death is simply a normal part of life that has always been here, what does sin have to do with it?
Romans 5
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
This only makes sense if there was no death at creation-Adam sinned-death started.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Of course that can be created in an instant. An entire universe can be created in an instant. A good wine can't?

I think we are in agreement - He is able to create in an instant with time built in.
 
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coffee4u

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The universe is old because God created it old.

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

Looking at it from a purely scientific standpoint, however, can lead to the conclusion that it grew old over a period of time.

What say you?

Is the universe old because God created it old? or is it old because it grew old?

As to the original question. ;) Guess I should answer it.

Time is something God made for us because we are time bound creatures.
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them. And this includes the heaven/s.

What exactly is meant by the word heaven? Is it the sky? The universe? The host of heaven- the angels?
The Lexicon says heavens in Exodus 20:11 refers to sky.
In Gen 1:1 the KJV says In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Heaven singular not heavens. And again the lexicon says sky.
So I will take heaven/s in regard to creation to mean the sky, not the universe.


I would say that verse 2 preceded directly after verse 1 and so on. If exodus had not included the 'heaven' within the 6 days there could have been a gap somewhere between verses 1-3 where the earth sat void with nothing happening a very long time, even billions of years since this would have been before creation week. But Exodus does not allow for any extra time and says heaven is included into the 6 days. Which causes me to believe the earth is young.
If it appears old is something else again and I think that has more to do with people's perception of what age looks like rather than it's actual age. No one knows what or how God created it so I don't believe any measurements are accurate, but wildly inaccurate. Certainly the trees were fully grown trees and Adam a fully grown man, but I don't think this means God purposely made the rocks look 4 billion years old, its just that people assume they are old due to known decay rates.
Yet for all we know the process of creation itself added those elements and people are assuming the quantity of them is showing great age when it isn't and is in fact only 6-15 thousand years old.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Creating the appearance of age is one thing, but creating a fake history is something else; the appearance of billions of years of geological events - continents forming and breaking up, mountains rising and falling, rivers coming and going, and untold billions of creatures living and dying. Why fake all that?

Wait... is it 'God Works In Mysterious Ways'?
 
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AV1611VET

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Creating the appearance of age is one thing,
So is creating age.
... but creating a fake history is something else;
I agree.
... the appearance of billions of years of geological events - continents forming and breaking up, mountains rising and falling, rivers coming and going, and untold billions of creatures living and dying.
All done on paper by scientists who assume they were long-age processes.
Why fake all that?
So they can keep their jobs? so they can make it look like they're educated? so they can keep their support coming in? because they are influenced by the Muses?

Who knows?
Wait... is it 'God Works In Mysterious Ways'?
Yes, He does.

In the case of the Creation Week however, which is the crux of this thread, God raised the amount of mass/energy in the universe from zero to its current level by a series of one miracle after another, done over a period of six days.

Continents forming and breaking up, mountains rising and falling, rivers coming and going, and untold billions of creatures living and dying did not occur in the first six days of our universe's history (starting 22 October 4004 BC).
 
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Mark Quayle

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If it's 15 billion years old doesn't that mean there was death for 15 billion years, long before man even evolved?

If so why are we told that death is a result of sin? If death is simply a normal part of life that has always been here, what does sin have to do with it?
Romans 5
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
This only makes sense if there was no death at creation-Adam sinned-death started.
I'm not one to hold to the notion that death did not happen before sin, nor even necessarily disease, for that matter. I'm pretty sure Adam had a fair notion of what death was for God's proscription against eating of the tree, for Adam to know it had some teeth to it. But spiritual death was first time, I think.

I don't think entropy began with the sin of Adam.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Continents forming and breaking up, mountains rising and falling, rivers coming and going, and untold billions of creatures living and dying did not occur in the first six days of our universe's history (starting 22 October 4004 BC).
So did Adam and Eve live through all that?
 
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Larniavc

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The universe is old because God created it old.

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

Looking at it from a purely scientific standpoint, however, can lead to the conclusion that it grew old over a period of time.

What say you?

Is the universe old because God created it old? or is it old because it grew old?
Why would God create it old?
 
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AV1611VET

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Why would God create it old?
I'm not sure.

Maybe it has something to do with the Anthropic Principle, or something.

I like what Adam Clarke wrote:

"It appears that God created every thing, not only perfect as it respects its nature, but also in a state of maturity, so that every vegetable production appeared at once in full growth; and this was necessary that man, when he came into being, might find every thing ready for his use."
 
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