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New or Grew?

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by AV1611VET, Mar 5, 2021.

How did the universe get its age?

Poll closed Apr 5, 2021.
  1. New

    20.0%
  2. Grew

    66.7%
  3. I don't know

    13.3%
  1. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    The universe is old because God created it old.

    2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

    Looking at it from a purely scientific standpoint, however, can lead to the conclusion that it grew old over a period of time.

    What say you?

    Is the universe old because God created it old? or is it old because it grew old?
     
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  2. Norbert L

    Norbert L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Some women prefer not to be asked their age. So let's just say mother Earth is older. :holy:
     
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  3. MMXX

    MMXX Jesus Loves You

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    God created Adam as a fully grown adult, rather than as a fetus that went through years of development to full maturity. It follows then that God created the world in the same fashion.
     
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  4. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

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    Looking at in terms of Greek grammar can lead one to the conclusion it's been around a long, long time (i.e. it grew old).

    ἔκπαλαι for a long time (Liddell-Scott)
    ἔκπαλαι adverb of time; for a long time; long ago, long since, of old (Friberg)

    Most modern translation make the appropriate rendering, "...the heavens existed long ago." No offense, but you're stretching the language beyond the limits of what would have been common use.
     
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  5. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    Indeed.

    Note here, where [Noah?] writes ...

    Genesis 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

    For all the others, he said ...

    Genesis 5:8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.

    If God created Adam twenty years old, Adam died when he was 950.

    That's why it says, "All the days that Adam lived ...", instead of, "All the days of Adam were ..."
     
  6. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's ok to be wrong but it's not ok to stay wrong. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    What scripture shows God created Adam as a fully grown adult?

    Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
    Gen 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
    Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
    Gen 2:10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
    Gen 2:11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
    Gen 2:12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
    Gen 2:13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
    Gen 2:14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
    Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

    How much time passed between Adam's creation and when he was put in the garden to tend it?
     
  7. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    Less than one day, since Adam was in the Garden when Eve was created and brought to him on the Sixth Day.
     
  8. ReesePiece23

    ReesePiece23 The Peanut Buttery Member.

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    Earth time is one thing.

    But the quantum state that the universe exists in is something ENTIRELY different.

    It takes Earth 24 hours to complete 'a day' - but on universal money? That day (and our concept of time) means absolutely nothing. Once you leave our solar system, time is as abstract as a Jackson Pollock painting.

    Add 'God time' to that equation, and I say it's entirely possible. These population 2's and 3's are only a rough perception after all.

    My answer? As annoying as it is, I don't know. And quite honestly, I shouldn't know. I'm only human...


    ... After all.
     
  9. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's ok to be wrong but it's not ok to stay wrong. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    And a day to God would be like a thousand years to a man so we are still left not knowing how much time passed between Adam's creation and when he was working in the garden. There is also nothing in the text that can say what age Adam was created as.
     
  10. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    Thanks, Reese.

    I added that to the poll as a third choice.
     
  11. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    I don't think this day/age distinction applies in Genesis 1.

    I think they were literal six rotations of the earth on its axis.

    After all, these six days are reiterated in the Ten Commandments as literal.

    Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
    9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
    10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
    11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
    That's why I said in Post 6:

    If God created Adam twenty years old, Adam died when he was 950.

    I just used twenty as an arbitrary number to make my point.

    If God created him thirty, then he died when he was 960.

    If God created him forty, then he died when he was 970.

    Etc.
     
  12. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    Not much. Adam had to eat.
     
  13. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What's the difference? --no, really! God's 'point-of-view', if you can call it that, is reality. It is not time dependent. We make a big deal out of time, because that is the only POV we have. So everything we talk about is in relation to that. God can grow the Universe 'instantaneously' (I say as if time was relevant). My take is: we really don't know what we are talking about.

    God created time. He can do with it as he pleases.
     
  14. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So the earth standing in the water and out of the water was also of old? Or in contrast to what is old? Or what?
     
  15. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

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    I don't know, but the idea that it was created to look old is preposterous, so we can eliminate that.
     
  16. MMXX

    MMXX Jesus Loves You

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    I admit there is no solid concrete scriptural evidence that Adam did not start out as a fetus or toddler etc. It's just a conclusion that Adam started out as a grown man.
     
  17. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    If He created it just to look old, that may be true; but if He created it old (not "just to look" old), then that's another matter altogether.
     
  18. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It kinda strikes me as funny how we decide what is preposterous and what is not, only according to our habit of assessing some absolute value to time. To us it might sound like madness, but it seems a lot more simple for God who 'invented' time, to manipulate it to his heart's content, than for him to do something ACTUALLY logically self-contradictory, such as lend a small portion of absolute sovereignty (i.e. autonomy) to mere creatures, causing them to be self-caused first causes.

    Not to demean your pov, I'm just saying it strikes me as funny. But as to your point: Why is it preposterous, really?

    I wouldn't say that he created it to look old. I'll go even more preposterous and say he can make is actually old, and that, instantaneously, if he wishes. He is, after all the maker and owner and engineer and the very source and essence of, Time.

    We are using our terminology and our understanding, to treat this subject that is quite a ways beyond us. Not that we shouldn't treat it, but we don't know what we are talking about.
     
  19. MMXX

    MMXX Jesus Loves You

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    There's also the gap theory. That there was a first earth age, and then similar to the time of Noah, there was a great cataclysm and the earth was made void and then re-created.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    Simply, but elegantly, put. :oldthumbsup:
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
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