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New Jerusalem vs Babylon the Great

Zao is life

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David, the temple in Revelation 11:1 has to be literal for...

1. the prince who shall come to stop the daily sacrifice in Daniel 9:27 and make the temple desolate.
Nonsense. The prince you are talking about came in the first century. His name was Titus. Daniel 9:27, the 70th week, did not get ripped out its chronological place. Read Chris Gedge's "The Atonement Clock" and throw away your false doctrine that you believe.
2. the little horn, the same person, to stop the daily sacrifice in Daniel 8:12-13 to make the temple desolate, by the transgression of desolation. Said in the text, Daniel 8:14 to be time of the end.
Nonsense. Daniel 8 was a prophecy about Antiochis, called Epiphanes, which has been fulfilled. Read Matthew Henry's commentary, which gives the history in detail, showing how the prophecy was exactly fulffilled, and throw away your false doctrine which causes you to join prophecies together that do not belong together, highlight them and drag them into a folder which exists in another epoch thousands of years later and which only exists in a cabinet in your own mind.
You fail to acknowledge that the word naos proves beyond the shadow of doubt that he will seat himself in the New Testament tempe - an idol in the Tabernacle of God on earth, an abomination which is going to cause the desolation of the part of the church which is the harlot that follows him, at the hand of the ten kings who will hate the harlot, make her DESOLATE AND NAKED, EAT HER FLESH AND BURN HER WITH FIRE. Let the reader understand.

As a result of your holding onto the false doctrine and the false teachers who tickle your ears in support of the false doctrine you believe, everything you write (such as what you wrote above) is rubbish.

Yet you just keep repeating yourself over and over, repeating the same rubbish over and over.
 
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Douggg

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Is "nonesense" and "rubbish" (both used in your post) the same ?

@Douggg I apologize for calling what you have been writing in this thread "rubbish"

I see that didn't last long.
 
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Zao is life

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I’m honestly trying to see how a saved person could consider themselves as being overcome.
The saints is plural. It's the same as saying, "The true church will be overcome".

Daniel 12 speaks about "the power of the holy people being shattered".

How does this happen?

The beast succeeds in killing some and shackling the church in its task in the world. The church's only taks is to bring people into the Kingdom of Christ. Understand that gates are defensive structures. They protected cities against attack from the outside:

Matthew 16
18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give the keys of the kingdom of Heaven to you. And whatever you may bind on earth shall occur, having been bound in Heaven, and whatever you may loose on earth shall occur, having been loosed in Heaven.

The gospel conquers. It conquers hearts, it conquers minds, it conquers lives. The beast is going to somehow shackle the church so that it cannot carry out its task:

Revelation 13
9 If any man has an ear, let him hear.
10 He who leads into captivity will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed by a sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Saints is plural. It's the faithful church being overcome. Their power is being shattered.

.. "they will prophesy 1,260 days"
.. and when this 1,260 days are up (when they complete their testimony), they will be overcome by the beast.

Their power, which had been given them by Christ, will be shattered by the beast once the 1,260 days are up. Christ only gives them His power for 1,260 days. Not one day longer (because this is God's timing). And the beast (and Satan behind him/it), who think he/it has gained victory over the gospel when they overcome the two witnesses and kill them, don't realize that they only have three and a half days left before the beast is destroyed (just as for three and half days Satan believed he had gained victory over God when Christ died on the cross).

".. when they complete their testimony" is the same as saying, "once the 1,260 days have been completed".

Also Revelation 11:7 says the two witnesses are overcome and killed so I think the overcoming involves something other than being killed.
The overcoming does indeed involve something other than being killed. The overcoming is overcoming (their ability to share the) gospel. How they will be overcome we are not told. They may be taken captive. We are not given details, but in our modern understanding we could imagine that it's possible that they will have been on the "wanted persons" list for a long time (over three years) and got caught by bounty hunters, were bound, imprisoned, then killed.

But it will only happen once they have completed their testimony i.e once the 1,260 days has been completed.


@grafted branch Can you see how John's imprisonment overcame John's ability to teach others about Christ? His whole mission was overcome by his imprisonment.

The similarity between John the Baptist and the two witnesses lies only in their prophesying. John the Baptist was one prophet, paving the way for the coming of the Messiah. These are two witnesses, paving the way for the deliverance of God's people from being under the hand of the beast and the destruction of the beast, in the same way that Moses and Aaron were the two witnesses in Egypt. Lots of similarities there:

THE TWO WITNESSES IN EGYPT: TURNING THE WATERS TO BLOOD

Exodus 7:19-20 "And the LORD spoke to Moses, Say to Aaron, Take your rod, and stretch out your hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their canals, and upon their pools, and upon every reservoir of their waters, that they may become blood.

And blood shall be throughout all the land of Egypt, both in wooden and in stone vessels."

"And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded. And he lifted up the rod and struck the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh and in the sight of his servants. And all the waters in the river were turned to blood."

THE TWO WITNESSES OF THE REVELATION: TURNING THE WATERS TO BLOOD

Revelation 11:6 “These have authority to shut up the heaven, that it may not rain in the days of their prophecy. And they have authority over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.”

Revelation 16:4 "And the third angel poured out his vial on the rivers and fountains of waters, and they became blood."

JOHN THE BAPTIST'S QUESTION AFTER HE WAS IMPRISONED

(IN MY OPINION) shows only that he began to doubt due to his continued imprisonment because he expected that because Christ could have, He should have and would have saved him. But Jesus did not. He was TOTALLY silent about it.

IN MY OPINION (it's just an opinion, not necessarily fact) Jesus' reply is telling: First He says what a great prophet John was (the greatest of all). Then Jesus adds, "But the least in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.":
Matthew 11
11 Truly I say to you, Among those who have been born of women there has not risen a greater one than John the Baptist. But the least in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.

@grafted branch Jesus was not saying John was no longer in the Kingdom of Heaven. He said that the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than John the Baptist, the greatest prophet who ever lived until now.
 
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Zao is life

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Is "nonesense" and "rubbish" (both used in your post) the same ?



I see that didn't last long.
I know It only lasted as long as your acceptance of the fact that the word naos shows what Jesus and His apostles taught - that the temple of 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 11:1-2 is the New Testament temple (but your acceptance of facts lasted no longer than -0.00000000 times a million seconds), and it lasted as long as the length of time you refrained from writing rubbish.
 
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Douggg

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Please go back to my post #119. I updated it with some illustrations.
 
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Zao is life

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Please go back to my post #119. I updated it with some illustrations.
Nope. I don't encourage those who deny facts and biblical truth and propagate false doctrine just because they demand I do.
 
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Douggg

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Zao is life

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Nice art. The Greek New Testament called both the holy court (which surrounded the sanctuary, a.k.a the most holy place or "holy of holies") + the sanctuary naos. The outer courts were called hieron.

After the tearing of the veil between the holy court and the sanctuary, which occurred when Jesus died in circa A.D 30, the Greek New Testament stopped calling the holy court and the sanctuary naos. After this only the church and temple in heaven are called naos, and the entire temple in Jerusalem which stood for another 40 years before being destroyed, is called hieron.

Nice art, though.
 
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Douggg

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After the tearing of the veil between the holy court and the sanctuary, which occurred when Jesus died in circa A.D 30, the Greek New Testament stopped calling the holy court and the sanctuary naos.
You have some misconceptions. I think you are confusing the holy room and the holy court.

The holy court was the inner court outside of the sanctuary building (the naos).

The veil was inside the sanctuary building (the naos). It separated the priests, holy men, who perfomed services in the holy room on a daily basis - from the Holy of Holies room behind the veil, which only the high priest could enter, and even then only once a year.

(copied off the internet)




the naos in the tent complex in this illustration (which I copied off the internet) would be the tent in the center. The inner court (the holy court) would be the outside surrounded by the wall.

The inner court (the holy court) would be where the burnt offering altar is - also in the illustration.

The Revelation 11:1-2 temple to be built will be replicating the tent complex in the Exodus. All of the tents you see in the background would represent Jerusalem in Revelation 11:2. Where the two witnesses, when killed, will lie for 3 1/2 days.

(copied off the internet)
 
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Douggg

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imo, the Revelation 11:1 naos sanctuary building will be the size of the tent naos in the Exodus - about 30 ft x 15 ft.

The wall about the same size as what was in the Exodus.

The reason for my thinking this is the amount of time needed to build the temple complex of the naos and inner court (the holy court) - following Gog/Magog is limited to around 7 months, to get the animal sacrifices started again (on day 220 of my chart below) - to leave the 2300 days of Daniel 8.



 
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Zao is life

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You have some misconceptions.
The misconception is yours. The holy of holies was where the high priest went into once a year on the day of Atonement. There was no veil inside that room. The veil is what separated the holy of holies from the holy court. @Douggg The holy court or holy place does not have to be in the courtyard (outside). You obviously don''t you know what the word "court" means. Beyond the veil between the holy court and the holy of holies was the ark of the covenant with the cherubim covering it. Read up what else was in there and what the priest did.

The entire holy courtyard surrounding the holy court and the holy of holies was called naos.

If you want to get facts from the Internet, one search will find you the facts. I found this on the first page of my search, near the top:

Holy of Holies and the Veil

Quote
A thick curtain separated the Holy of Holies from the Holy Place. This curtain, known as the “veil,” was made of fine linen and blue, purple and scarlet yarn. There were figures of cherubim (angels) embroidered onto it.
Unquote

Both the holy court and the holy of holies were called naos until the day that veil was torn.

But suit yourself because you are obviously determined to invent your own fakes and call them truth.
 
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Douggg

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The misconception is yours. The holy of holies was where the high priest went into once a year on the day of Atonement. There was no veil inside that room. The veil is what separated the holy of holies from the holy court.

The veil is what separated the holy of holies from the holy court.

The veil is what separated the holy of holies room from the holy room.

The naos is the two roomed sanctuary building.
 
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Douggg

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Inside the santucary building (the naos) - the Holy of Holies room was separated from the Holy Place room by a veil.

The Holy court was outside the sanctuary building (tent in the Exodus)
 
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Douggg

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DavidPT

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Please go back to my post #119. I updated it with some illustrations.

Oddly enough, though I too agree the 70th week is future, or if not all of it is, the final half is, I don't have it involving literal temples in Jerusalem where animal sacrificing resumes then is put to an end again, which is ludicrous to begin with. I have it basically involving what this thread for the most part is involving, that these things are not meaning in a literal sense. In my view, the first 69 weeks, or maybe even the first 69 1/2 weeks, this involves the literal. After that it is no longer involving the literal, it is meaning in another sense instead, like many of these posts throughout this thread, including the OP, are showing to be the case. I don't blame others for rejecting that any of the 70th week involves the future if it means one needs to understand it like you are, that being in the literal sense. But that is not the only way these things can be understood, though.
 
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grafted branch

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Yes. Revelation 21:27 is talking about New Jerusalem in the New Heavens and New Earth, not about the church now. Lots of false "doctrines of Jezebel" enter in and defile the church that exists now.
Ok, Hebrews 12:22 says we have come to the heavenly Jerusalem. I’ve been interpreting this to mean that we have spiritually come to the New Heavens/New Earth (behold all things are become new).

I think we would agree that the naos is currently not physical but spiritual. Do you see the church itself not coming to the heavenly Jerusalem but the true believers do?
 
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grafted branch

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You and I are seeing this differently. Jesus is the Wod of God. Abraham received the Word of God and Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness. This was long before Christ shed His blood:
Can we go back to Ephesian 2:11-13 for a moment? Verse 13 says ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. Wouldn’t the blood of Christ be what allows Gentiles to now be included in the covenants of promise?


Thanks for taking the time to explain your view. Your view is that Gentiles were not part of the commonwealth or covenants of promise and that was because they were without Christ and not because they were not born of Israel (genetic descendants). I think this would be correct if a Gentile could have access to the naos outside of Israel. I would say prior to the cross the naos was only in a single specific location.



If it was the genetic descendants that were the torch-bearers of the ark and only a Levite could be a priest, then Gentiles were not part of the commonwealth of Israel, at least in part, because of their genetics. So in Ephesians 2:11-13 I don’t think we can’t rule out that Paul could have been referring to genetics.



Prior to the cross we both agree that it would be impossible for a Gentile nation to get the ark and obey Gods commandments because genetically Israel was to bear the ark. So I would say genetics did play a part in at least some of the promises made by God.
 
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grafted branch

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I have seen several views on this; one is that the power of the holy people in Daniel 12 is the power (hand) in Daniel 7:25. This view then sees that power shattered (shall bruise) in Romans 16:20. The second view sees the power of the holy people being scattered as the naos now being in all believers and not just one physical location; this is also seen when Jesus breaks the bread (his body) to feed the multitude. I think some people also include Pentecost and the Holy Spirit as the power being scattered or dispersed.

I’m not sure which of the views is correct, your is different than the two I have looked at previously, so I’m going to have to look at your view a little closer before I make any comments on it.
 
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claninja

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revelation 11:1-2 clearly makes a distinction between the temple (naos) and the outer court and city of Jerusalem.

1.) the temple, in vs 1, and it’s worshippers and altar are measured.

2.) the outer courts and city are not measured because they are given over to the nations and are trampled.

Why is there a distinction of “measuring” made between the naos and the “not measuring” of the outer courts/city, if they are both about the church, according to your argument?
 
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DavidPT

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Why is there a distinction of “measuring” made between the naos and the “not measuring” of the outer courts/city, if they are both about the church, according to your argument?


Interesting question. Maybe what is meant by the city in verse 2 is meaning what is recorded in verse 1? Even though I think Luke 21:20 involves Jerusalem in 70 AD, Luke 21:24 is meaning post 70 AD though, and that it is involving what is recorded in Revelation 11:1-2, not Luke 21:20, and that none of it is meaning in a literal sense.

In my view, after Luke 21:20 was fulfilled, things switched gears and went from meaning in a literal sense to meaning in another sense altogether. IMO, Matthew 24:15-26 is not paralleling Luke 21:20 like many tend to believe, it is involving what Luke 21:24 is involving, which includes what is recorded in Revelation 11:1-2, where that involves the 42 month reign of the beast recorded in Revelation 13.
 
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