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New here, wanting to learn about the other side

CuriousAtheist

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I've been active in religious sites for a few years now. When I first started, I listen to both sides, and deemed atheism the logical choice. Times has passed, and now I only listen to the atheist's side. Well, I came here to hear the theism side. I'm not here to debate, it even says I'm not allowed to debate here, but just to understand your side of it.

Sorry if this seems too much like a debate starter, but why do you believe? What evidence have you found to lead you to the conclusion that there must be a god? Looking forward to your replies.
 

seashale76

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Welcome!

I feel like a broken record sometimes repeating this so often, but you are not the first to ask similar questions, so I'll just share a copy and paste of an older post of mine (some of which may be relevant to your question and some not). I hope you don't mind.

Not one person can argue you into the Kingdom of Heaven. I am only a Christian because of the grace of God. I have read many holy books from other faiths such as the Koran, the Bhagavad Gita, parts of some Buddhist writings, Hare Krishna literature, the Tao Te Ching, the Urantia Book, the Book of Mormon, the Poetic Edda, the Upanishads, al-hadith, and probably others I've forgotten about. I've learned about major world religions, spiritual trends, historical religions that have seen a resurgence (reconstructionist religions), paganism, satanist philosophies (including Temple of Set), etc. My undergrad degree was in Anthropology, so it would be really strange had I not read a lot.

I was raised Pentecostal. I wanted to believe that the holy scriptures (Christian) were what they claimed to be, but I had some difficulties, I must admit. It does boil down to the ultimate question of whether God exists or not, and how does one know?

So, since you asked, I'll give you some background info on why I believe. I don't consider what I went through to be a true deconversion. I had been a hard core believer for most of my life and never thought I'd change either. However, when it happened, it was enough for me to post a deconversion testimony on a website for former Christians.

It was heartbreaking for me and I really had a difficult time. I did go through my own dark night of the soul. At the same time, I was also overjoyed with not having to go to church anymore, as I truly lost all sense of church services etc. even being remotely useful or relevant to my life. It all seemed so pointless. I saw this huge disconnect between the Church that the New Testament spoke about and what I was seeing in the Pentecostal, Baptist, and independent Christian churches I had gone to every Sunday and Wednesday of my life.

I didn't consider going to those churches that were considered more 'liberal' because while social justice issues are important, I didn't see the point in calling themselves Christian if they were rejecting the fundamentals of the faith anyway. I figured I could be involved in helping others, be more honest with myself in the process, and sleep in on Sundays. Everything I had ever encountered in Christianity seemed to be well intentioned, but wrong somehow.

I began calling myself a Deist, but I wasn't satisfied with that and started researching other religions and philosophies. I liked Taoism, but I honestly didn't see anything else that I considered worth my time to believe in. I couldn't call myself an atheist because I had a few experiences in my life that made me aware of a spiritual world out there. However, knowing this didn't make finding the truth an easy process, and skeptics had a lot of good questions that I began to examine as my own.

Long story short, I was a jaded and bitter individual. I felt I had good reason to be as I had a lot of negative religious/spiritual experiences. I understand where people are coming from who are angry, because I can relate to an extent. However, my bitterness began to turn into hatred of all things Christian, to the point where I started to see that I was becoming the sort of person I didn't want to be. I didn't like myself at all.

I didn't give up my search though. I read a lot. I sent desperate, pleading prayers out for God (if He even existed) to lead me to the truth. It was coming across Orthodox Christianity on the net that piqued my interest. I thought I knew everything about Christianity- enough to know that all the groups I was familiar with weren't going to cut it for me. I found the only Orthodox book at my local Barnes and Noble and bought the beat up and bent copy of it. I read it, I was cautious about it, I tried to dismiss it (but it kept coming to mind), and I eventually decided that I wanted to go visit an Orthodox church.

If I recall correctly, I think it was the Orthodox teaching on hell that really swayed me. It’s not the same. I could never buy into the whole Jonathan Edwards’ Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God thing where God hates everyone and just specifically creates people to torment for eternity. It never rang true. However, reading about what the Orthodox Church believes regarding heaven and hell, it did ring true to me.

So, what is this view of heaven and hell? God is Love and His presence is like fire. How one endures this fire has everything to do with how they were tempered in this life, just like the three righteous youths in the fiery furnace were able to joyfully walk around unharmed in the fire, so did others who didn't love God perish just being near the fire. The fire didn't change.

Here is a quote from an old Wikipedia article on the topic (that doesn’t seem to be around anymore) that I thought explained it pretty well: "For many ancient Christians, Hell was the same "place" as Heaven: living in the presence of God and directly experiencing God's love. Whether this was experienced as pleasure or torment depended on one's disposition towards God. St. Isaac of Syria wrote in Mystic Treatises: "... those who find themselves in Hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God ... But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!" This ancient view is still the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church."

I was very reluctant to go back to any sort of church again. The first Sunday my husband (who was agnostic at the time) and I even turned around in the church parking lot and went out for coffee instead. However, we eventually made our way in for Divine Liturgy.

How does one explain to someone else about experiencing the presence of God? All I knew was that it wasn't simply my own emotions wreaking havoc with me- some things come from outside of ourselves- and people who know themselves well can discern this difference. (I was raised Pentecostal and I am rather immune to situations designed to manipulate emotions.) It was like being confronted with all of the answers to my questions after my long search. I knew I had to convert. God was there. Christ is in the Eucharist- which is something I had difficulty accepting as I was raised to accept a very different thing as being the truth- but have certainly experienced beyond a doubt since my Chrismation. Can I prove this to you? No. Were our personal experiences enough to prove it to me and my husband? Yes.

I essentially discovered a Christianity that is an entirely different religion from what I knew before. I had to start over again completely. I couldn't go back to what I thought I knew and believed. I just couldn't. There was something missing there, or I wouldn't have been unhappy enough to leave in the first place. We have the same holy scriptures and belief in the trinity, but everything else is radically different. I somehow knew it was my only chance when I discovered the Orthodox Church.

Except, I personally need the Church. I can't go it alone. I need the liturgy, I need the Eucharist, I need the prayers of the Church, and I especially need all of the sacraments of Christ's Holy Church . I need to go the hospital for what ails me; the ark of our salvation. I need the medicine of immortality.
My advice to you:
I will post a few things that it certainly wouldn't hurt for you to read that explain the Christian faith fairly well.
What Is Most Important
The One
Introduction to the Bible
Excerpts from the Orthodox Church by Bishop Kallistos Ware (part 1)
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/history_timothy_ware_2.htm (part 2)
P r a y e r

I am a firm believer that one can't know what the faith is about truly unless they come and see it for themselves. You must visit a church to learn about the faith. Visiting doesn't lock one into becoming a Christian. I've never yet been to an Orthodox Church where I've seen anyone harassed and hounded into becoming a Christian- and even if you want to become a Christian you would have to be catechized. At the very least, you'd have an interesting cultural experience. Pascha is coming up and you will find that outside of Orthodox Christianity, nobody even comes close to celebrating Pascha (Easter) like we do. It's a great time to visit.

Orthodoxy in America
 
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Van

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How does on "know" that what they believe is true is not an exercise in self-delusion? Why believe if there is a real possibility the belief may be in whole or in part false?

If a person believes they cannot trust to luck or speculation or a working hypothesis they would appear to be a sniveling coward, afraid of his or her own shadow. They could not sit in a chair unless they saw it used by a person of similar size and weight. How could they open any envelope because they do not know it does not contain weaponized anthrax.

No the real question is why trust in the God of the Bible, rather than godlessness. And the answer is simple, given what we know or think we know, trusting in the God of the bible seems like the best we can do. Have lots of people trusted in "gods" that did not exist? Yes, but that does not demonstrate no god exists. Have people done horrible things in the name of God? Yes. One of my favorite quotations is, " Man has little to fear in what men do in the name of evil, but God help us from what men do in the name of good." But the problem with this condemnation of belief in God is that those who did evil in the sight of men in the name of God, might have been hypocrites, pretenders, folks that claim to be godly, but inside are ravenous wolfs.
 
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ebia

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I've been active in religious sites for a few years now. When I first started, I listen to both sides, and deemed atheism the logical choice. Times has passed, and now I only listen to the atheist's side. Well, I came here to hear the theism side. I'm not here to debate, it even says I'm not allowed to debate here, but just to understand your side of it.

Sorry if this seems too much like a debate starter, but why do you believe? What evidence have you found to lead you to the conclusion that there must be a god? Looking forward to your replies.
Like most things in life, I didn't sit down, carefully collect little piles of evidence, and then evaluate them according to some set of carefully constructed rules. I took experiences as they came, and found that I not only believed in the God of the bible but was unable not to do so.
 
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ephraimanesti

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Like most things in life, I didn't sit down, carefully collect little piles of evidence, and then evaluate them according to some set of carefully constructed rules. I took experiences as they came, and found that I not only believed in the God of the bible but was unable not to do so.
i have never heard it put this way before, but that is my experience as well--I BELIEVE IN GOD BECAUSE I AM "UNABLE NOT TO DO SO".

Thanks for the insight!

:bow:ABBA'S fool,
ephraim
 
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drich0150

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but why do you believe? What evidence have you found to lead you to the conclusion that there must be a god? Looking forward to your replies.

Anyone looking to find belief in God can ask Him for the strength/faith to start a relationship with Him. He will Tailor an experience to your life and send you the Holy Spirit to help you first believe, and then maintain a relationship with Him.. If in fact that is what you heart wants.

You will not be able to reason or deduce their is a God by using your current system of thought. Atheism is a type of religion, one built in such away as to put barriers between you and God. This was accomplished by constructing a line of reasoning, and qualifying barriers that cannot be met by the nature of God. Now because everything else seems to fit, or can be made to fit in the atheistic line of reasoning, and God does not, God to the Atheist can be discarded..

If you are truly searching for God Do not Approach Him as you would, another unverified variable. Search for Him as a lost Child would search for a parent in a large crowd. Otherwise you will find what you expected you'd find.
 
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childofGod31

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I've been active in religious sites for a few years now. When I first started, I listen to both sides, and deemed atheism the logical choice. Times has passed, and now I only listen to the atheist's side. Well, I came here to hear the theism side. I'm not here to debate, it even says I'm not allowed to debate here, but just to understand your side of it.

Sorry if this seems too much like a debate starter, but why do you believe? What evidence have you found to lead you to the conclusion that there must be a god? Looking forward to your replies.

Well, first of all, faith is a gift. People are either born with it or not. Some believe any commercial. Others doubt all, even the truth. I happened to be a type that believes, so it's easy to convince me. You are the type that don't (I guess), so it will be hard to convince you with the same evidence.

There is lots of evidence (unless you think that all people are lying) about some other world out there (spiritual, psychic..whatever). There are supernatural happenings (just go to one of the false revival meetings and you will see weird manisfestations) That should make one wonder: what IS that? Why is that possible? How is that possible?
THere are many people who claim to travel outside of body and see things that later are verified to be true (unless you think all those are lying)

So it's there... The question is: WHAT IS IT? Some world other than the one we know and see? God? Spirits? Something else?

Well, sometimes God talks to me through this one person. And if you ask me how I know that, it's because the person tells me stuff that is way to strange for him to say. And it's not just any stuff, it's something that answers my inner questions, it's like he read my mind. Sometimes it's so encouraging as though he knows that I am down (inside). And sometimes this person would say something to me and then say: who said that?

So God speaks through people. It's like He inhabits the body (or something) and starts speaking. Although, sometimes this person would say one sentence from himself (for example, analyzing what he just said and why) and then the next minute he would say a message from God (although he doesn't always think that it is, he thinks it's him speaking to me.)And I tell him: but why in the world would you say this or that to me? He would say: I don't know, but there must be a reason. I would say: but you responded to my thoughts... He thinks it's a coincidence. Well, this coincidence coincidentially keeps happening all the time for a few months now...

And if this would help you in any way, and if you are curious as to what kinds of things this person is saying to me, let me know and I can pm them to you...
 
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