New here, concerned with decline in attendance

FireDragon76

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One thing that's hurting our congregation is the cost of insurance for the pastor and his family. It's nearly equal to his salary, and we are required to buy into it as per the ELCA's rules. Ultimately this is part of the wider problem in American healthcare, as well.

There are alot of ways that moving towards a more broad, European style social democrat model could help smaller institutions like churches. Organists and pastors tend not to be the most lucrative careers, at least in mainline churches, and they have to put food on the table just like everybody else. A universal basic income and universal healthcare could go a long ways towards reducing the costs of having qualified staff in churches.
 
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Julian of Norwich

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Laying in bed this morning and thinking about the whole issue, I believe to some degree it is about conservative vs liberal. Churches that espouse liberal views of the bible tend to have clergy that are liberal in their thinking regard social policies, and to me that somewhat defines a liberal. Thinking that was directed by their liberal seminary professors. Social policies that believe the government should take care of everybody regardless of self determination. That is the ELCA and probably most mainline protestants. But likely clergy more so than their congregants. On the other hand non-denominationals and evangelicals, who find themselves in a growth curve, typically take a more conservative view of the bible and tend to believe in a more minimalist form government where self determination is encouraged and government is there to, among other things, take care of the weak. Almost by definition conservative means to conservative the status quo, and that includes the time honored tradition of attending church.

I didn't choose what church to attend, I was baptized at a young age and grew up in an ELCA church, and took any liberal thinking clergy we had as a passing trend. Turns out I hitched my wagon to a horse that took a path I wasn't fully aware of. For 16 years we had a very likable pastor that followed Bishop Spong and ended up virtually a Unitarian, preaching that from the pulpit. That being said, I still like being a Lutheran and believe Martin Luther did the right thing by calling out Catholicism. I believe in his basic tenants of faith. But being Lutheran, I am no bible thumper, so I feel ill prepared to have a full discussion regarding theology.

I fully agree that a strong congregation is about much more than just Sunday worship and music. I tend to key on that as it is my area of familiarity, I have been involved in our Worship and Music committee as long as I can remember. Also I have served on three call committees.

You may be somewhat right, however that certainly isn't the case with me. Although I am conservative about interpretation of the Bible and morals, I am liberal politically. From what I've seen two things are at work.1) Mixing politics with Church has always seemed wrong to me, also 2) from my experience in the Catholic Church (whose hierarchy doesn't want to face it either) millennials are liking traditional liturgies more and more as modern liturgies were liked by many baby boomers and millennials are more conservative. Just my opinion though.

As you said FireDragon76, finances probably come into it too.
 
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Halbhh

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You may be somewhat right, however that certainly isn't the case with me. Although I am conservative about interpretation of the Bible and morals, I am liberal politically. From what I've seen two things are at work.1) Mixing politics with Church has always seemed wrong to me, also 2) from my experience in the Catholic Church (whose hierarchy doesn't want to face it either) millennials are liking traditional liturgies more and more as modern liturgies were liked by many baby boomers and millennials are more conservative. Just my opinion though.

As you said FireDragon76, finances probably come into it too.
One important thing that happened widely is that while 40 years ago, everyone went to church, whole families, regardless of whether they individually believed (in Christ risen) or not, because that's what people did. It was a key part of their identity and social world and social life.

So, that in a church, there would be at that time 40 years ago I think a high portion of those attended that simply did not believe. For instance for them perhaps Christ would be only a good example, and not more, if even that.

Today that old social pressure to attend regardless of belief has been extinguished mostly so that I expect that in a mainline protestant church, most that are still attending actually believe in Him, Christ Jesus as the actual beloved Son of God, risen from the grave, and to come again!

But, in addition to that huge change, is there also another trend too? This is harder to answer, since for myself, the first Lutheran church we ever entered in our lives, 8 years ago, is this one, ELCA, we have attended ever since, belong to, and all I've seen is a dip and then growth.

Especially in young families. At one point I prayed that we gain more young families, and grow, however gradually like a strong tree, over time, gaining over time. And this has happened. We had at one time about 4-6 kids in the K-5th grade level on an average Sunday, and now it's averaging about 10-18, roughly triple the number, over about 5 years. So while we have continued to slowly lose older members to natural death in old age, we have continued to gain young members. This is a suburb in a large metro area that is very dense with churches, and a huge amount of church choice available for any young families to choose among. I haven't asked, but I've assumed that probably many of these young families we gained were themselves raised Lutheran. But notably, we were not, and notably I've discovered to my surprise that quite a few church members (not just 3 or 5) grew up in other denominations other than just Catholic or Lutheran (the main groups here), at least to the extent that surprisingly we have more than just a couple of people for example that grew up in pentecostal churches (!), which is just surprising, but I think it fits in a way also. Anyway, that's not the main thing I wanted to say, but rather I'm not at all convinced that 'conservative' churches have grown because they are 'conservative' in faith, but instead I think, very sad to say, it's more likely because they are conservative in politics instead. Which is very concerning, because politics is a competitor to our faith, faith in Christ. It's not a political ideology we are to believe in, but instead in Christ and His Words. So, see, I'm not even sure what portion of 'conservative evangelicals' sincerely and truly believe in Christ enough to learn all He said, and I wonder if they do believe enough to learn, but this is hard to know, because most people just assume their church will teach them all they need to know, and that puts way too much power in the hands of the pastor's own faith or lack thereof.
 
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FireDragon76

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I don't think theological liberalism is tied to political liberalism or even liberal social ethics, necessarily. And from a Lutheran POV, that's understandable because theology and ethics are separate disciplines for us.

The changes you are seeing in American churches has more to do with the sexual revolution and civil rights in the 60's, and different responses to that. It would be a mistake to try to reduce that to just being about ones theology.

You may be somewhat right, however that certainly isn't the case with me. Although I am conservative about interpretation of the Bible and morals, I am liberal politically. From what I've seen two things are at work.1) Mixing politics with Church has always seemed wrong to me, also 2) from my experience in the Catholic Church (whose hierarchy doesn't want to face it either) millennials are liking traditional liturgies more and more as modern liturgies were liked by many baby boomers and millennials are more conservative. Just my opinion though.

As you said FireDragon76, finances probably come into it too.


That's a good point, but it might be due to Catholic tendencies you have.

If anything, younger pastors seem to be somewhat less prone to theological liberalism than in the past (probably due to theological liberalism's philosophical assumptions not fairing so well in light of postmodernism) but they aren't changing their minds about things like women in ministry or acceptance of gays.
 
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Julian of Norwich

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I don't think theological liberalism is tied to political liberalism or even liberal social ethics, necessarily. And from a Lutheran POV, that's understandable because theology and ethics are separate disciplines for us.

The changes you are seeing in American churches has more to do with the sexual revolution and civil rights in the 60's, and different responses to that. It would be a mistake to try to reduce that to just being about ones theology.




That's a good point, but it might be due to Catholic tendencies you have.

If anything, younger pastors seem to be somewhat less prone to theological liberalism than in the past (probably due to theological liberalism's philosophical assumptions not fairing so well in light of postmodernism) but they aren't changing their minds about things like women in ministry or acceptance of gays.

You're probably right about the Catholic tendencies (some of which I had even as an Episcopalian-I was an Anglo-Catholic for much of the time I went to that church, too).

You're probably also right about the sexual revolution and Civil Rights. I assimilated much of the Civil Rights Movement, but very little of the sexual revolution-and my formative years were spent right in the thick of the sexual revolution. Very odd!

I constantly change my mind on women in ministry. In fact, as an Episcopalian I even thought of going into the ministry (my mother was a feminist and my grandmother along with my mother were adamant Civil Rights advocates).

I wonder if postmodernist theology won't be leaning conservative though. Just because eras are so cyclical and "there's nothing new under the sun". Possibly ethics will, too.

One thing (as one poster noted) that's certainly helping the Confessional Lutheran churches is pre-schools and schools! They bring whole families in!
 
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FireDragon76

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One important thing that happened widely is that while 40 years ago, everyone went to church, whole families, regardless of whether they individually believed (in Christ risen) or not, because that's what people did. It was a key part of their identity and social world and social life.

So, that in a church, there would be at that time 40 years ago I think a high portion of those attended that simply did not believe. For instance for them perhaps Christ would be only a good example, and not more, if even that.

I remember those times, though just barely. I wouldn't necessarily say that fewer people actually believed. What we are seeing in our culture today is an actual decline in belief and increased polarization. I remember when mainline Protestantism was still culturally dominant, and it's quite different from when the dominant voices in religion are angry, insecure people insisting you to buy into a dualistic and highly polemical worldview.

Back in the 80's, churches were respected civic institutions, for the most part, but today, if you read any media at all, you can tell the perception is that churches are inherently problematic and must be negotiated: they aren't so much as adding to civic life, in the media's perception, but are more like a minefield. And who can blame them? The loudest Christian voices in our culture make it sound like being a Christian is no better than being a Moonie or a member of some other cult.
 
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FireDragon76

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You're probably right about the Catholic tendencies (some of which I had even as an Episcopalian-I was an Anglo-Catholic for much of the time I went to that church, too).

BTW, I don't meant to criticize that tendency, at all. I think it's good and healthy. In North American Protestant churches, on the other hand, there is enormous cultural pressure, owing to Calvinism's pervasive influence, to rationalize and discipline every part of your life in a very totalizing way.
 
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tampasteve

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One thing (as one poster noted) that's certainly helping the Confessional Lutheran churches is pre-schools and schools! They bring whole families in!

They definitely help, but many congregations are not able to make the jump from weekday child attendance to Sunday service attendance. Why? I have no idea. There is a small/medium LCMS church not a mile from my house that has a large pre-school program (the state pays for a set amount of hours here), it is so full they turn people away. However, they have not been able to translate that into Sunday attendance, for the most part. It is curious, for any number of reasons.

Having a well advertised Sunday school for kids is very important. The church we frequently attend has one, but we never knew about it until we literally accidentally walked in a different door one day and the nursery was right there.
 
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I moved five years ago, but I am still a member of the church I grew up in. It is about a four hour drive, so I get back about six times each year. It is a growing church. On a typical Sunday we have about 150 members in attendance. Membership ranges from young families to seniors. We have two services, both traditional. We have a young, energetic pastor, a fabulous youth program, and a daily nursery school. We collect food for the food bank (on souperbowl Sunday we collected almost 2000 cans of soup) and on warm weather we grow fresh vegetables in our garden for the food bank. We have a gym that is open to the community in the evenings. Our choir has declined because seven long-time members moved and/or died within about a two year period. However, it is still going, abet in reduced numbers.

The church I attend where I currently live is having problems. It is in an economically depressed area, and most young people graduate and move away. The congregation is older. They have a youth program but Not a large number of youth. They don’t have the outreach programs of my home church. I do worry about the future of this church, and unfortunately many of the problems it faces are caused by factors over which Olathe church has no control.

Before anyone asks, I remain a member of the church I grew up in because I will be retiring on four years and plan on moving back when that happens.
 
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actionsub

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My wife would be in the same category as you in regards to the social stances, this is one of the reasons we stopped attending the local LCMS parish and the WELS could not be an option (other than my Messianic Judaism beliefs).

Ditto. LCMS and WELS appear to be so dogmatic on everything from soup to nuts that I really didn't feel comfortable; my divorced/remarried status made becoming Catholic a non-option, but I wanted something that was liturgical. The UMC churches here are very pietistic and works-oriented, with one being a megachurch featuring services rivaling a Ted Nugent concert for message and volume. I got sick of the constant nagging to "DO something"; I work full-time in social justice ministry and needed a balance on Sunday morning. One of our partner churches was a small ELCA congregation that was starting outreach to the homeless. My wife and I visited there and felt like we'd finally come home.
 
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Ditto. LCMS and WELS appear to be so dogmatic on everything from soup to nuts that I really didn't feel comfortable; my divorced/remarried status made becoming Catholic a non-option, but I wanted something that was liturgical. The UMC churches here are very pietistic and works-oriented, with one being a megachurch featuring services rivaling a Ted Nugent concert for message and volume. I got sick of the constant nagging to "DO something"; I work full-time in social justice ministry and needed a balance on Sunday morning. One of our partner churches was a small ELCA congregation that was starting outreach to the homeless. My wife and I visited there and felt like we'd finally come home.
Funny enough, before I made the final decision to actually join the ELCA church we have been attending I did reach out to my old Catholic priest. He really is and was a fantastic person, I knew him for close to 10 years and just the week I reached out the dioceses was moving him to a different church.

Basically I was feeling drawn to the church for a number of reasons, I still had and have issues with some doctrines, but I wanted to regularize my standing if possible due to a divorce (from a RC) and remarriage. In the end the hoops and process were just to much to deal with and, honestly, just not worth it to me.
 
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On topic though, the church that we just joined is actually growing...slowly, but it is. There were 12 new members in the class this fall, 13 if you include our 2 year old. For an ELCA/Mainline church that is not terrible these days....sad as that is. I think part of the issue could be how they organize it. The membership class was 5 weeks long, one hour each week. That is really not a large commitment in time overall, but I think they could have condensed it to 4 hours in one afternoon and accomplished everything they did.
 
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On topic though, the church that we just joined is actually growing...slowly, but it is. There were 12 new members in the class this fall, 13 if you include our 2 year old. For an ELCA/Mainline church that is not terrible these days....sad as that is. I think part of the issue could be how they organize it. The membership class was 5 weeks long, one hour each week. That is really not a large commitment in time overall, but I think they could have condensed it to 4 hours in one afternoon and accomplished everything they did.
Our ELCA church is an unusual situation. We live in a beach resort/vacation area. We have no young families with children -- they all went to the big nondenominational church a few years ago, with a lot of youth programs that none of the other denominational churches can offer because, well, we don't have any youth any more. We have *no* children, indeed, no one under 45 in regular attendance. Normally that would point to a "dying" church.

But we live in a popular retirement area, so we are constantly rebuilding our numbers and attendance with new retirees -- "young old", if you will, to replace the old that are dying or no longer able to attend worship. Most them are ELCA from other congregations, so it's only a matter of transferring paperwork, ditto with those who came from full communion partners. But for others, there is about three hours of instruction in what it specifically means to be Lutheran. And of course, that is in debate; what LCMS/WELS think "being Lutheran" means differs a lot from what the ELCA thinks, and to a slightly lesser degree, NALC and LCMC.
 
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Our ELCA church is an unusual situation. We live in a beach resort/vacation area. We have no young families with children -- they all went to the big nondenominational church a few years ago, with a lot of youth programs that none of the other denominational churches can offer because, well, we don't have any youth any more. We have *no* children, indeed, no one under 45 in regular attendance. Normally that would point to a "dying" church.

But we live in a popular retirement area, so we are constantly rebuilding our numbers and attendance with new retirees -- "young old", if you will, to replace the old that are dying or no longer able to attend worship. Most them are ELCA from other congregations, so it's only a matter of transferring paperwork, ditto with those who came from full communion partners. But for others, there is about three hours of instruction in what it specifically means to be Lutheran. And of course, that is in debate; what LCMS/WELS think "being Lutheran" means differs a lot from what the ELCA thinks, and to a slightly lesser degree, NALC and LCMC.

This is interesting. Properly positioned many churches could attract more members of an older demographic rather than focusing on the younger generations and spreading resources thin. Thank you for the perspective!
 
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Declining membership of churches, as was stated, is not confined to one denomination or even one type of denomination such as all Lutherans. It has been going on since the 1990s.

Part of the reason is that there are these "new" faiths. Wicca now exists and that faith was made up sometime, I think in the 1960s (don't quote me on that, I'm writing from memory and may be completely wrong).

Also, when people hit college age, and sometimes even earlier, they tend to quit attending worship services or going to any congregation. Many of them don't go back to a congregation until they are married and have children (if they even do then) because they decide that they want their children to be raised in the faith . . . even though they stopped going as a young adult and didn't return for many years.
 
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Declining membership of churches, as was stated, is not confined to one denomination or even one type of denomination such as all Lutherans. It has been going on since the 1990s.

Very true, and the reasons are varied among areas and people....which is why it is so hard to turn around. Just look at the RCC, they have declining numbers and priests just like the rest of us, but many members there blame it on Vatican II. They say "the seminaries were packed before Vatican II" and I think, "well, yeah - all of our churches were doing great back then". I do think that a partial answer would be more options for traditional high church services along with "contemporary" to appeal to a wider range of people.
 
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Halbhh

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Very true, and the reasons are varied among areas and people....which is why it is so hard to turn around. Just look at the RCC, they have declining numbers and priests just like the rest of us, but many members there blame it on Vatican II. They say "the seminaries were packed before Vatican II" and I think, "well, yeah - all of our churches were doing great back then". I do think that a partial answer would be more options for traditional high church services along with "contemporary" to appeal to a wider range of people.

Yes and no -- it will help a church compete some, but probably not a lot (on average, some will do better, some not quite as well). Here's why.

There is an energy of youth, and usually young people want that energy, so that is how that works, and it's not a bad thing, but there are other aspects to look at here.

I was just reflecting on the first page of posts, how the OP poster seemed entirely ignoring that other conservative denominations were falling in attendance.... (the big picture is that Western Christianity -- Europe, North America, South America -- has falling attendance on net (instead of stable)).

So, sure, some churches can take members from others, for a while, and have an illusion that they are growing new believers.... There will be new believers, and that will help maintain that illusion. Mostly people that already believe will seek out a church. That seems as if they are new. But mostly those growing churches are just growing by taking young families that were going to go to some church, and might have gone to the one they grew up in.

Not new converts, but returning to church.

But instead of that big picture, people want to believe it's about music, or political leaning of people in a church.

Even "conservative" or "liberal", though those have 0% connection with faith. But can temporarily create a movement in a church, such as when ELCA accepted gay people.

When I pointed out that temporarily for a short time LCMS would have a slower decline because of ELCA members leaving ELCA to move to LCMS due to such things as accepting gay people....

I think that was entirely unheard there at that time (on the first page). I might be wrong. Perhaps he heard it and didn't like it, and will realize it's true in another year or 3. But it seemed as if it was....invisible information. Not even disagreed with, but instead...unseeable.

So, it seems he imagines wrongly that LCMS will not decline, but ELCA will, and that will of course prove entirely wrong soon, since the people leaving for the LCMS is largely about done, and then the LCMS decline will accelerate back to the same rate as the general average, though some will be closed more rapidly by a nearby new megachurch competition, as is the norm. Some will do well if they have a great preacher. Etc.

Of course, there is the illusion of a growing church in most any town/area were simply a big new church is built and then young people that would definitely come to some church or another choose it because it is new and flashy.

That's growth of (put in random name here like __nature thing like River or Mountain, etc.__ or whatever) is an illusion also -- those churches will age, and then the same will happen, that is on average (some worse, some better).

Of course, an individual church can grow longer time frame when there is a great preacher, because it continues to draw members from other churches, people that would have gone to some church regardless.

So, it is 0% about politics or music, long run. Though of course the good thing about contemporary music is that it authentically worships the Lord in a way many young people can hear, and that's just good.

So, a good band is not a bad thing, but it's not the thing.

I'm not saying contemporary music is unhelpful. It's great for youth especially.

It's good.

But it's not the long run thing. The long run for an individual church is more about the presence of real faith (not just tradition or keeping on going!) in the pastor, and truly preaching from real faith.

Real faith causes sermons to take on some power.

That matters.
 
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Yes and no -- it will help a church compete some, but probably not a lot (on average, some will do better, some not quite as well). Here's why.

There is an energy of youth, and usually young people want that energy, so that is how that works, and it's not a bad thing, but there are other aspects to look at here.

I was just reflecting on the first page of posts, how the OP poster seemed entirely ignoring that other conservative denominations were falling in attendance.... (the big picture is that Western Christianity -- Europe, North America, South America -- has falling attendance on net (instead of stable)).

So, sure, some churches can take members from others, for a while, and have an illusion that they are growing new believers.... There will be new believers, and that will help maintain that illusion. Mostly people that already believe will seek out a church. That seems as if they are new. But mostly those growing churches are just growing by taking young families that were going to go to some church, and might have gone to the one they grew up in.

Not new converts, but returning to church.

But instead of that big picture, people want to believe it's about music, or political leaning of people in a church.
Bingo. There are several groups of people that might become new members (or frequent attenders)
1. new converts
2. families with a young child
3. older people
4. youth with or without parents

The problem is that many (most?) churches try and appeal to all of those groups at once. Let's say that a given synod has 25 churches with average attendance of 50-150. All of those churches are going to try and have a youth and children's program of some sort, programs for older people, and so forth. They are all stretching their resources too thin and providing poor or lacking programs. It would be better for the churches in an area to pool their resources and designate one central church to have a great children's program, a great young adult program, etc. I heard an interview of a group of synagogues that have started to do this - and it is working much better.
Even "conservative" or "liberal", though those have 0% connection with faith. But can temporarily create a movement in a church, such as when ELCA accepted gay people.

When I pointed out that temporarily for a short time LCMS would have a slower decline because of ELCA members leaving ELCA to move to LCMS due to such things as accepting gay people....

I think that was entirely unheard there at that time (on the first page). I might be wrong. Perhaps he heard it and didn't like it, and will realize it's true in another year or 3. But it seemed as if it was....invisible information. Not even disagreed with, but instead...unseeable.

So, it seems he imagines wrongly that LCMS will not decline, but ELCA will, and that will of course prove entirely wrong soon, since the people leaving for the LCMS is largely about done, and then the LCMS decline will accelerate back to the same rate as the general average, though some will be closed more rapidly by a nearby new megachurch competition, as is the norm. Some will do well if they have a great preacher. Etc.

This is very true. I actually did read an article by an LCMS minister on this case. They were warning of the exact thing you are pointing out. The overall trend of the LCMS is down, they had a slight bump from the ELCA members and congregations that left, but it was temporary and variable by local. Of course this is not just the LCMS or ELCA - it is all Western Christendom.
So, it is 0% about politics or music, long run. Though of course the good thing about contemporary music is that it authentically worships the Lord in a way many young people can hear, and that's just good.

So, a good band is not a bad thing, but it's not the thing.

Agree. This is why I champion to have choices in worship. Why does a church have three services (all sparse) that are "contemporary" and all on Sunday morning? Would not it be better to have one Traditional, one Contemporary, and one additional blended or *gasp*, something unique like a Latin or Eastern Liturgy? How many Lutheran churches have a Saturday vespers service as an option? This creates additional stress on the church team, but I would bet if the church put out a call of a liturgist or someone to help assist in this planning they could get people to volunteer their time.
 
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Halbhh

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have a Saturday vespers service as an option

That's interesting to me, and I don't know whether or not I've been in a 'vespers' service ever. (there's been quite a range of services in various churches in my past, but if vespers is only on Saturdays then I doubt I've been in one, though I did go to a few Saturday Catholic services I think; I think they were more just regular services adopted to special things like confirmation or Christmas eve). It would be great to be able to attend that kind of more Eastern or Catholic vespers thing sometimes. You know, we have some pieces of that I think in our traditional service (or so I imagine), but I wonder what it would be like with more....of that pure experience.
 
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tampasteve

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That's interesting to me, and I don't know whether or not I've been in a 'vespers' service ever. (there's been quite a range of services in various churches in my past, but if vespers is only on Saturdays then I doubt I've been in one, though I did go to a few Saturday Catholic services I think; I think they were more just regular services adopted to special things like confirmation or Christmas eve). It would be great to be able to attend that kind of more Eastern or Catholic vespers thing sometimes. You know, we have some pieces of that I think in our traditional service (or so I imagine), but I wonder what it would be like with more....of that pure experience.

I believe there are a couple LCMS churches that do (Ft. Wayne does), the more high church congregations. I am not sure if any ELCA churches do a vespers service, or even many that just do a regular liturgy on Saturday evening.

I have been thinking about bringing up the subject to our pastor....but being a fairly new member I am not sure it is my place at this point.
 
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