New here, concerned with decline in attendance

[Ole Anderson]

Sorry, when I say daughter congregation, that is to say our church helped them form in the 1960's when we were growing so fast. So in a word we are their "mother" church. Ultimately if worse comes to worse, we could merge or simply become absorbed by them or we could become another campus. They, in fact, have taken over a small failed ELCA church in the area and it has become a small campus for them. I have spoken to their pastor and minister of music and they are willing to sit down with us , initially to talk about starting a "modern" service. That and a round table discussion of our future is what I am hoping will get us started moving in the right direction. As they say, the first step is to admit you have a problem. Others in our church are equally concerned and feel some of my ideas are aiming in the right direction. But again, I focus on worship, much else needs to be done.

 

[tampasteve]

Sorry, when I say daughter congregation, that is to say our church helped them form in the 1960's when we were growing so fast. So in a word we are their "mother" church.

Ha, that makes sense Much as in human relationships, sometimes the children end up helping and taking care of the parents when they age.

Ultimately if worse comes to worse, we could merge or simply become absorbed by them or we could become another campus. They, in fact, have taken over a small failed ELCA church in the area and it has become a small campus for them. I have spoken to their pastor and minister of music and they are willing to sit down with us , initially to talk about starting a "modern" service. That and a round table discussion of our future is what I am hoping will get us started moving in the right direction. As they say, the first step is to admit you have a problem. Others in our church are equally concerned and feel some of my ideas are aiming in the right direction. But again, I focus on worship, much else needs to be done.

It sounds like you are on the right path to making changes. I sincerely hope that it works out for you. Honestly, consider making the "traditional service" even more high church Lutheran, I think it will meet the needs of younger people as well. Not all of us want a modern service, I certainly do not (I am 35). Most people that are comfortable with the current traditional service would also likely welcome more "smells and bells" as it were.

 

[Ole Anderson]

Tampasteve, We are snowbirds and spend 3 months a year in Cortez (9 years now) and am there right now. Missing being at our home church when all this is going on, but it is worth it to get the good weather. Fortunately we stream our services, so I am able to worship with them remotely. We attended services Palm Sunday and Easter out on Anna Maria Island and see that the local ELCA church there is going through the same problems.

Yes, one option would be to make the earlier traditional service more liturgical than our current "blended" service. Personally I can get excited by both styles of worship.

 

[tampasteve]

Tampasteve, We are snowbirds and spend 3 months a year in Cortez (9 years now) and am there right now. Missing being at our home church when all this is going on, but it is worth it to get the good weather.

Welcome to Florida! I am a third generation Tampanian, I love it here....except for the hurricanes. I told my wife that if we get another direct hit like last year we are moving. But that is rare, I have been here all my life and only have had one other storm that close, but it was smaller.

Fortunately we stream our services, so I am able to worship with them remotely.

That is handy, my ELCA and LCMS churches do not broadcast their services.

We attended services Palm Sunday and Easter out on Anna Maria Island and see that the local ELCA church there is going through the same problems.

Yes, it seems to be almost all Mainline churches in the USA, the ones I was speaking of were up here in the Tampa area.

Yes, one option would be to make the earlier traditional service more liturgical than our current "blended" service. Personally I can get excited by both styles of worship.

Absolutely, both styles can help us reach God, whatever helps us get close to Him is good!

 

[Arcangl86]

I need to ask this question. How active in the community is the church? Even if you change everything about worship, which might not even be needed, there needs to be something attracting people to the church in the first place.

 

[Ole Anderson]

We actually do quite a bit in/for our community. Our building is used for AA meetings, rock, beading, jewlery, quilting and craft groups, Jazzercise and karate folks meet here weekly. We host a bi-monthly group meeting for adults with special needs. We participate in Walk for Warmth and other area wide walks. Every other year we have a huge ($20k in receipts) rummage sale that lots of our neighbors help with. We could always do more.

On a separate note, in our church and other Lutheran churches I have attended, we never hear much if anything from the pulpit about touchy issues like sin, prayer or tithing. We tend to go out of our way to keep everyone in their comfort zone. We don't challenge folks. I believe that is a mistake.

 

[tampasteve]

On a separate note, in our church and other Lutheran churches I have attended, we never hear much if anything from the pulpit about touchy issues like sin, prayer or tithing. We tend to go out of our way to keep everyone in their comfort zone. We don't challenge folks. I believe that is a mistake.

This is generally across the board in the Lutheran Church. That said, the confessional Lutheran LCMS and WELS synods and the remaining confessional ELCA parishes do tend to teach on sin and prayer more than the general ELCA; tithing, not so much still. At least this is my experience between the ECLA and LCMS.

 

[FireDragon76]

I became Lutheran because it was a refuge from other kinds of Christianity heavily influenced by the pietist and holiness traditions. I am not interested in Calvary Chapel clones. And I doubt many genuine seekers are, either. If they want that, they will go to Calvary Chapel or Vineyard or whatever non-denom church is offering "experiential worship".

I would like to see more use of contemporary instruments in worship, such as piano, at our church (and I have encouraged our congregation to do so), but other than that, I want the worship and ethos to stay Lutheran. There are plenty of contemporary Lutheran hymns that have Lutheran theology and emphasis.

Christianity in general is on the decline except for the more magical kinds of beliefs such as Pentecostalism. Solving this dilemma is something even the most brilliant church leaders are puzzled by. Personally, I think John A.T. Robinson was correct in that the problem is that the Church has not been honest enough or open enough to the modern world.

I've been going to a ELCA church my whole life. It's stayed the same or has been slowly shrinking. I think focusing on the millennial generation would help with attendance. They are getting married later or staying single. So catering to more single people would help. I keep going to church, but I'm pretty much the only millennial single person there. Most of the church is comprised of older women or families.

At our church there is a bracket between 20 - 38 where there simply are no people in that age. All the young people "graduate" out of church attendance.

 

[Halbhh]

I became Lutheran because it was a refuge from other kinds of Christianity heavily influenced by the pietist and holiness traditions. I am not interested in Calvary Chapel clones. And I doubt many genuine seekers are, either. If they want that, they will go to Calvary Chapel or Vineyard or whatever non-denom church is offering "experiential worship".

I would like to see more use of contemporary instruments in worship, such as piano, at our church (and I have encouraged our congregation to do so), but other than that, I want the worship and ethos to stay Lutheran. There are plenty of contemporary Lutheran hymns that have Lutheran theology and emphasis.

Christianity in general is on the decline except for the more magical kinds of beliefs such as Pentecostalism. Solving this dilemma is something even the most brilliant church leaders are puzzled by. Personally, I think John A.T. Robinson was correct in that the problem is that the Church has not been honest enough or open enough to the modern world.




At our church there is a bracket between 20 - 38 where there simply are no people in that age. All the young people "graduate" out of church attendance.

You may find this interesting. I attended a Pentecostal church from age 10 through 16, and remember it fondly for the wonderful humble people and inspired and unusual visiting evangelists and just good, good singing, so spirit filled.

And I really like our ELCA Lutheran church.

And I'm not alone, I learned to my surprise. Another member I love here is also from the holy rollers. Pentecostal.

Something about these 2 churches just feels good.

We totally belong, though not raised Lutheran.

Holy Rollers to Lutheran -- We fit perfect. Heh heh.



Now you could ask me more about the Pentecostal of my youth, and I can tell you how it was accurately. Better than guessing from outside.

 

[FireDragon76]

I've been going to a ELCA church my whole life. It's stayed the same or has been slowly shrinking. I think focusing on the millennial generation would help with attendance. They are getting married later or staying single. So catering to more single people would help. I keep going to church, but I'm pretty much the only millennial single person there. Most of the church is comprised of older women or families.

You may find this interesting. I attended a Pentecostal church from age 10 through 16, and remember it fondly for the wonderful humble people and inspired and unusual visiting evangelists and just good, good singing, so spirit filled.

And I really like our ELCA Lutheran church.

And I'm not alone, I learned to my surprise. Another member I love here is also from the holy rollers. Pentecostal.

Something about these 2 churches just feels good.

We totally belong, though not raised Lutheran.

Holy Rollers to Lutheran -- We fit perfect. Heh heh.

Now you could ask me more about the Pentecostal of my youth, and I can tell you how it was accurately. Better than guessing from outside.

My partner is ex-Pentecostal and we have different perceptions of Pentecostalism, I guess. "Pharisaical" and "judgmental" are terms that come to mind. You only really get clued into this once you get away from the religious community and have more broad experiences.

It's ironic because I was the one that sought out a Lutheran church but she is the one that is probably the most Lutheran now.

I am former Orthodox and that's just like a more highbrow form of Pentecostalism. In the end it's about squeezing human beings with guilt and shame to get them to conform to what some human being thinks they ought to be like, coupled with irrational beliefs about things God has not promised to do.

 

[Halbhh]

My partner is ex-Pentecostal and we have different perceptions of Pentecostalism, I guess. "Pharisaical" and "judgmental" are terms that come to mind. You only really get clued into this once you get away from the religious community and have more broad experiences.

It's ironic because I was the one that sought out a Lutheran church but she is the one that is probably the most Lutheran now.

I am former Orthodox and that's just like a more highbrow form of Pentecostalism. In the end it's about squeezing human beings with guilt and shame to get them to conform to what some human being thinks they ought to be like, coupled with irrational beliefs about things God has not promised to do.

I've attended 8 denominations, and also was in my head agnostic for many years, but wonderfully He drew me back. My experience of churches is broad. I've really a lot of perspective to offer. While no doubt some individual Pentecostal churches or types or regions are different, so I've no idea about those variations, ours wasn't judgemental or pharisee type at all, but sorta the opposite, as best I could tell, and I ended somewhat involved in that it had an openness to anyone going up and leading singing, so I did.

 

[Methesinner]

2. To attract new younger members (via a contemporary service) we need to drop some of our more formal things that make us "look" Lutheran, we would likely not have a choir at that service. The pastor should not wear robes. No processional/recessional. Opening and closing songs, yes. Communion at that service should always be by intinction. Music would be with a band (lead vocalist, guitar, bass, piano/keyboard, drums if possible). Largely contemporary music picked by the worship leader familiar with new Christian music mixed up with contemporary versions of old familiar songs. We will need a lot of discussion and planning to get there.

All I can say to this is dont count out younger people that like tradition. I was Catholic and when I became Protestant it was the liturgy that made me go Lutheran. My old LCMS church(currently I am at an ELCA church as it is the only lutheran church in town.) changed from a traditional worship to a IMO a stupid modern rock concert. I quit going as did many other younger people. After about 6 months of this they changed to having two services one traditional and one woodstockish. If you go this route be sure to keep two services for people that prefer the traditional and want to feel uplifted not as if they came out of an Ozzy concert.

 

[Ole Anderson]

I agree and have already heard that from our pastor as an excuse to do nothing. That is why I am proposing two services, one traditional, possibly even more liturgical than our current "blended" service. I don't ever see us going full rock style music, just good contemporary christian music including modern versions of old hymns. And not so loud that it discourages the congregation from singing. No moving lights, no haze.

 

[tampasteve]

All I can say to this is dont count out younger people that like tradition. I was Catholic and when I became Protestant it was the liturgy that made me go Lutheran.

^^^This.

I was also Catholic, about 10 years. When I started attending a non-Catholic church again I hungered for a liturgical church with some element of Tradition and an episcopal structure. The ELCA is a great fit in this regard. I am now mid 30s, and liturgy keeps me coming back, I love that aspect of the ELCA churches I have been to.

 

[FireDragon76]

I am a liberal Lutheran. I did not grow up Lutheran, I used to be Eastern Orthodox. I would not even be in the ELCA (much less a churchgoer) if it were not for those liberal social stances our church has taken, that attracted me to the church. I believe in reason, tolerance, and social justice too much to hang out with most American evangelicals.

I don't know about our future long term. Being a faithful Christian has never been easy. Luther said one of the marks of the true Church is suffering.

I agree and have already heard that from our pastor as an excuse to do nothing. That is why I am proposing two services, one traditional, possibly even more liturgical than our current "blended" service. I don't ever see us going full rock style music, just good contemporary christian music including modern versions of old hymns. And not so loud that it discourages the congregation from singing. No moving lights, no haze.

I like actual Lutheran hymns (and we do indeed have contemporary Lutheran hymns and hymnwriters, in fact some of my favorite hymns were written in the past 40 years), or at least hymns compatible with our theology. I don't mind having pianos or guitars but I do not listen to contemporary Christian music and I don't want it in my worship. As I said earlier, it's not my tribe.

 

[tampasteve]

I am a liberal Lutheran. I did not grow up Lutheran, I used to be Eastern Orthodox. I would not even be in the ELCA (much less a churchgoer) if it were not for those liberal social stances our church has taken, that attracted me to the church. I believe in reason, tolerance, and social justice too much to hang out with most American evangelicals.

I don't know about our future long term. Being a faithful Christian has never been easy. Luther said one of the marks of the true Church is suffering.

My wife would be in the same category as you in regards to the social stances, this is one of the reasons we stopped attending the local LCMS parish and the WELS could not be an option (other than my Messianic Judaism beliefs).

 

[FireDragon76]

I am hoping that the Rev. Nadia Bolz-Weber, as a public theologian, doesn't forget her Lutheran roots. Somebody like her could do alot to get exposure for our way of being Lutheran.

Also, I think the denominational headquarters finding creative ways to fund outreach would be a good thing. Maybe reboot Davey and Goliath. Something that gets our presence out in the public. Name recognition is half the battle. Most people are no longer aware of what being a Lutheran means, at best they associate it with Germanic ethnic religion. In a country that is increasingly diverse, that's long-term suicide. We need converts, as averse as our denominational structures are to recognizing this. And we also need to give people a reason to continue to be Lutheran other than "that's what I was raised with".

We also need new church plants and missions. With a congregational structure in our denomination, where the average age is over 55, any kind of change becomes difficult at the congregational level. Older congregations are unlikely to adapt to changing cultural needs, so the best thing we can do is get fresh faces out there.

 

[tampasteve]

Probably get out on college campuses more too. I know when I was at the University of South Florida I never saw any Lutherans at the Thursday market or other events. The Catholics, Jewish, Baptist, etc. were there, but not the Lutherans. The same goes now for other community events, the church needst o get out and invite people to services. I am going to see if I can help out my church do this in their community. It is located in a gentrified area that has lots of mid 20-40 year olds that should be a key demographic at the historic church there, but only a few attend (myself included).

 

[FireDragon76]

Part of the problem is that our idea of ministry is traditionally defined by the old European state religion model of the pastor as a kind of civil servant that exclusively mediates religion. Even though we do not in theory have an LCMS-style elevation of the pastoral office, in practice we tend to have that attitude, that ministry is something that is done by clerics. We need alot more deacons and lay chaplains to be engaged in community outreach, to go to those type of religious events @tampasteve is describing.

Furthermore, peoples ideas of what it means to be Lutheran need to be tweaked. There's this old idea that Lutheranism is primarily information that kids absorb at confirmation and then they "graduate" and no longer have a need for active involvement in the Church. We need to emphasize being Lutheran as a way of life. There are plenty of 20th century Lutheran theological resources that support religion as a practice, and not just theological propositions. Kids now days are not looking for ideas about God so much as spiritual guidance. Emphasizing the communal aspects of our faith balanced by our sense of personal moral agency is a good remedy to an American religious landscape that is either individualistic or authoritarian.

 

[Albion]

1. I believe we need to work quickly toward having two different services, our primary service being a contemporary service similar to what Calvary is doing, and a secondary, traditional service with organ and hymns. Both on Sunday mornings. Having two services will allow us to continue to meet the needs of traditional Lutherans with liturgy and piano/organ hymns with robes.
2. To attract new younger members (via a contemporary service) we need to drop some of our more formal things that make us "look" Lutheran, we would likely not have a choir at that service. The pastor should not wear robes. No processional/recessional. Opening and closing songs, yes. Communion at that service should always be by intinction. Music would be with a band (lead vocalist, guitar, bass, piano/keyboard, drums if possible). Largely contemporary music picked by the worship leader familiar with new Christian music mixed up with contemporary versions of old familiar songs. We will need a lot of discussion and planning to get there.
3. I am thinking a 9:15 traditional service and an 11:00 contemporary service.
4. Services should start on time and generally be done within an hour.
5. I believe we need to evaluate where we fall within the conservative/liberal theology span within the ELCA and discuss how that may impact our growth.

Based on the experience of other mainline church bodies, if those points (except perhaps for #4) were implemented it is most likely that the decline would accelerate.