New here. And struggling with my long time Christian faith. Please advise.

[Evening Mist]

Dave Kerwin --- Thank you for your gentleness.

I have thought through nearly every word you spoke a million times before.

Except -- the femine analogy of being a "bride" that includes men as well as women. Which still gives me trouble, because people use that to justify men being "in charge" of their wives. But thank you for the reminder. I'll think on it.

As to rebellion -- Yeah. Maybe I am. But the alternative is to be quietly and *resentfully* submissive. IMO -- that'd be way worse because it would be dishonest.

And also, if I'm right about injustice in the church -- well then I think God would want me to stand up for justice. No?

Again, thank you for the kindness and the patience in your words.

I think you guys are wise and helpful, but I'd love to hear from a woman. Anyone lurking out there?

 

[Evening Mist]

Okay then. I'll just ramble on for a bit then.

In general terms, Christianity feels like a "man's faith" and sometimes I feel like I'm just expected to quietly follow along. If women wrote the bible, cannonized the bible, interpreted the bible, etc. I think it might read a little differently. Dave, the scripture you gave me even states that older women should teach and guide the younger women. So WHERE ARE THEY? Where are the teachings of my fore-mothers?? They are lost because women haven't had a voice. Women weren't allowed to write. Women weren't allowed to make big decisions like how to cannonize the bible. All of Christian history (okay, all of ALL history) is lop-sided because women have been oppressed . Women's wisdom has been demonized, mocked, lost and burried. Darn it.

The sexes are supposed to balancing each other out here, not drowning each other out!

And the very worst of Christianity is evident to the world as a result of so-called "masculine" ways. I'm not saying all men are monsters. God knows I love you guys. But geesh -- they way that Christians are supposed to control their children, and control their wives, and once upon a time control their slaves...... And the emphasis on punishment and violence, SPANKING, and CONTROLLING and ... and... ugh!

These things are not good. And they do NOT reflect a good God. So I feel backed into a freaking corner. Either I accept Christianity as I know it and embrace this wild hatefullness as they way God is. Or I reject it and risk hell-fire. And I KNOW some of you will just tell me that His ways are above mine, and that I just need to trust. Stupid, stupid hateful circular arguements that just lock people into hatefulness indefinately.

I'm starting to cry and I'm not making sense anymore.

 

[Mr.Cheese]

I think InterVarsity has a commentary on the bible for women. I'd like to read it. The roles of women in Jesus' ministry were revolutionary for the culture. The importance of women according to the gospels makes teh gospels almost ludicrous to their contemporaries.
I don't know how we got from there to where we are, but I'm trying to tell you that you are not at odds with Christianity. At least you are not at odds with Jesus.
BTW, You're my sister and I love you.

 

[Evening Mist]

Thanks Mr. Cheese. That is definately what I want to hear!

But just because I want to hear it doesn't mean it is true.

 

[Mr.Cheese]

Heh, don't worry.
I'm not big on ear candy.
Wherever someone stands on the issue, what I said is true. I read what I wrote again to make sure I can say this. So to keep from repeating myself, read my last post again. You have that to hang on to without wondering if it's wrong.

 

[repentandbelieve]

Evening Mist, you are a person with a heart for God whos faith is being undermined by doubt. Hold on to your faith

 

[DaveKerwin]

I understand what you mean evening mist, but I am convinced that you feel this way for a bigger reason than you are revealing. If you knew me, or a different man from this forum, then you would not think the way you do. Remember, that men don't have role models either most times. Rarely do you find someone who says "follow me as I follow Christ". I have an idea. How about YOU become the woman who instructs the young ones. YOU become the one who leads them into paths of righteousness. Well?

 

[Evening Mist]

Dear dave -- I just checked your profile. You are my baby brother's age! I was at my mother's side when he was born in 1981. I seven, and I was sucking on a juice pop. I know and love plenty of men very much like you. Sweet, passionate, just a bit arogant and sometimes overbearing, but mostly very lovable.

I don't hate men. I don't hate men. I don't hate men!!! Please forgive me if it sounds like I hate men. I really don't believe that I hate anyone. I'm really intensely angry these days. Really, really intensely ticked off. And not even at men specifically. I'm mad at the stupid way that we human beings function. As far as I'm concerned, men are as much victims of patriarchy as women.

I'm not hiding any dark secret that will give you enlightment as to the source of my anger. I promise. I don't really believe that I need a specific trigger to be angry over the things I'm angry about.

I'm almost 30. I'm surrounded by Christians who abuse themselves, and abuse each other, and abuse non-believers -- all in the name of Christianity. I'm fed up. I wanna switch teams and play with nice people for awhile. But I still love all these rotten, self-righteous Christians too -- and I KNOW that I am JUST as bad as any of them too! And it is tearing me apart.

I'm tired of sentimental Christian platitudes that cover up the way people are *really* feeling. I want to be honest. I want other people to be honest. Even if it makes them look "unchristian." I want to go sit in a bar with miserable people who will at least have the decency to admit their misery.

As far as your last challenge -- heh! I've always been one to give anything I have to anyone who asks for it. But I have NO clear cut answers for anyone. The answer to every question is either going to be "It is complicated" or "I don't know." So tell me Dave, would you really feel comfortable with a rebel like me counselling a daughter of yours to learn more about her heavenly Goddess??? LOL! I doubt it.

I should go to bed. It is almost 2 in the morning and I have to get up in three hours. Do you ever stay awake all night with the overwhelming sense that you MUST find peace before you can sleep? Only to find that the more exhausted you become the further from peace you actually are? LOL! I'm a nut case.

 

[Evening Mist]

Dave -- I'm up this morning an rereading my last post. It sounds like I'm calling you arogant and overbearing!!! eeek. Not at all how I meant those words to come out last night -- I don't know you well enough to insult you. I meant -- the 22 year old men I've known. Which, once upone a time in college, was quite a few of them!!

 

[DaveKerwin]

So I am arrogant, I can get over that... LOL Besides, when you are as awesome as I am, comments just fly off your back. Wait, don't be arrogant, ok, taking a deep breath, got it, I am a jerk. Phew, that was close. Moving on....


The Christians you are describing are not the Christians I hang with, or go to church with. So I am having difficulty relating to that since I am surrounded by people who follow Jesus Christ. This ought to tell you that there are people out there that are the opposite of the ones you are with. I find it odd that you mentioned that you are no better than these people, yet you are fed up with them. Does this mean you are fed up with yourself? I suppose you cannot complain unless you are able to do things right, yet you seem to be complaining a lot. I understand getting fed up with hypocracy, but you don't seem to be fighting it yourself. For every 1000 people hacking at the leaves on the evil tree, only one person strikes the root.

I am going to stick to my guns on this one. You don't feel the way you do for no reason. I have a friend that wants to vomit when he sees those little vegetables that look like miniature corn on the cobs. Is there a reason for this? YES. He ate them for the first time on the night he got horribly ill, and mentally made the connection to those little buggers. Now, you have done similar things in your mind. I don't know what it results from, but it is there. Nobody with such a strong feeling against something feels it for no apparent reason. This goes deeper than you realize. If the only thing that has you ticked is people who do differently than they say, then that does not make much sense to me. I see hypocritical christians too, but I don't react the same way as you do. Why is that? I am not saying I don't get angry or whatever else, but it does not consume me. Why does it consume you? (sorry about the self righteous attitude)

I suppose I would not feel comfortable with you counceling or leading my daughter. I would if you changed, which you can do. Anyone can do anything if they really want it. I hate to use this example, but that Jared guy from Subway commercials. The brother just wanted to be skinny, and he did what it took to get there. He drastically changed his diet, and drastically changed his physical excersize habits. He could have broken the diet program, or the excersize program, when it got difficult right? But whats the difference between Jared and some other overweight person? The difference is desire. Jared wanted to be skinny bad enough that he followed through. The people who try for a week and give up did not want it badly enough. I bring this up to remind you that if you want to be in a different situation than you are in right now, then you have to want out SO bad that you will do what it takes. I am talking about major spiritual changes, attitude changes, a complete overhaul. In the car world this would be the equivalent of a 132 point inspection with a visa card to fix all the bad parts. From hearing you, it does not sound like you want to be in a different situation yet. Do you? If so, how bad do you want that? How bad do you want to be the woman of God who knows the answers to those questions, who leads young women in paths of righteousness, who shows them how to persue God? Or how about simply being a woman who knows God? Or a woman who is the exemplary wife/mother?

I am fully convinced that you can be all of that and more. If you doubt this, then please go listen to someone's testimony about their life. Where they used to be, and where they are now. I know that God honor our efforts when they fit his will. Have you ever asked him what he wants with your life? I guess I feel I know what God wants out of me in this life. So when times get bad, I remind myself of my purpose on Earth, and the mission that God has set before me. This past week has been very difficult for me. I thank God for the people has has put in my life who help me. And I thank him for a good reminder last Monday about my mission. I know that what I am doing is worth it because I know what God has called me to. When you have a direction in life, certain things will no longer bother you because you know where you are going, and why you have to endure hardships, etc.

wow that was way too long.

 

[Evening Mist]

Dave, I like long posts! You can't always really deal with a complicated issue in 10 words or less.

No, I'm not actually complaining an awful lot. I'm complaining here, in this thread, because it is a teeny space I carved out in the world to complain in and get feedback from people like you about what I'm complaining about. If you don't want to hear me complain, you don't have to listen and respond. If these boards do not want to support the expressions of frustration, then they are free to tell me so. Right now I'm just talking out loud.

IRL -- I am pretty quiet about these strong feelings. I'm reflective. And, for the record, I'm a pretty darn good wife and mother.

What you say about associations rings true. Things are making me sick because I associate them with negative experiences. I won't deny that. But I feel like you want to hear that I've been raped or molested, or some horrible thing like that so that you can say, "Oh she has a right to be angry." But it just isn't there. Of course at times in their lives, everyone is a victim of some abuse or another. I would venture to suggest that women in general are more consistently victimized than men. Sigh.

As far as the Christians in your life -- there was a time in my life when I thought the people in my church and the friends I "hung" with were cool too. And they were and still are. But I have become leary of people who claim to have all the answers.

And sometimes the ways we hurt each other are subtle. If you have found a circle of friends who accept each other's shortcomings without judgement, who communicate honestly and from their hearts about how they are doing, and treat always treat each other kindly and with tolerance, who will do anything for you from from feeding you to cleaning your bathroom, then you have found a rare treasure in them.

And yeah, I am WAY judgmental right now. And I know that is wrong. And I hate it.

As far as being a women with clear cut answers -- there is always the risk of being wrong when you are that kind of woman. I do want to change, but my big question is "what do I want to change into?"

I want to be a person who sees thing how they are, and if they are really muddled, then I guess I'd prefer to see them muddled.


-----------------------------------------------
OT: Cleaning someone's bathroom is the best modern equivalent I can come up with for the biblical act of washing someone's feet. Ie. -- if you are married, Jesus would want you to clean the bathroom for your wife. If you know someone who has a new baby and needs some support, offer to clean her bathroom. If your buddy is sick in bed, or feeling depressed, go clean his bathroom. Maybe this is just my disturbed obsession with cleanliness, I don't know.

 

[repentandbelieve]

Hi Evening Mist. From reading your post I get the impression that you are a Christian woman who knows what it is to have communion with God. You've tasted His goodness and seen His glory but it seems that something is interferring with your communion with God. you are in anguish because your soul won't rest until your communion with God is restored.

Your struggle is nothing uncommon for Christians to experience. Many, many Christians have the same struggle but do not share their feelings as openly as you do.

What is it that causes separation in the communion between man (or woman) and God? You know that the answer is sin. You already know the basics of Christianity. Practice those thing that the Holy Spirit has taught you.

Remember that our love for God is constantly being tested by temptations. Our love for the world is constantly pulling us away from God. We all need to ask ourselves, do we love God more than the world?

Also remember that we all fall short of the glory of God so be faithful to repent and keep on believing. Keep fighting the good fight of faith.

 

[DaveKerwin]

It is fine to let your frustrations out here. This is, after all, the struggles forum. I do believe there comes a time when you let go of certain things, but I right now you are in more of a discovery stage then anything else.

So what do you think about direction? Do you have life purpose? Why are you here on Earth? What does God want with you specifically?

I am not waiting for you to admit you have been raped or something. I said I figured that may have been the case. I also mentioned that people feel the way they do for a reason. I have yet to understand what your reason is. I think it would be beneficial to specifically address the issues that lead you to associate negative things with the church. Maybe a specific person sinned against you? or against the church as a whole? Maybe you need to talk with this person. This is just an example of what I am trying to get to. I find that when I confront someone, or at least admit to them how they make me feel, it ends up being a ton easier.

Why are you leary about people having answers? In and of itself, it does not sound bad. I understand if someone acts like they cannot be wrong, but some things are worth defending in that kind of way. If someone tells me Jesus is not the way to God, they are gonna be in for a long talkin too.

So you have friends who are understanding and non-judgemental, thats awesome. Is this a woman's small group or just some friends?

Why do you feel so judgemental? Have you been judged?

I think your question for yourself is a great one. Forgive the rhetoric, but where should you look to find what you should become? Who has the power to make that happen? If you feel you know what you need to do, will you do it?

 

[seebs]

I think one of the things that makes people uncomfortable with people who "have answers" is that sometimes different people have different answers, and this can make it very hard to believe *any* of them are right. I tend to be very uncomfortable around people who are utterly certain; I believe that utter certainty on most issues is a very bad thing, because it makes it very hard for God to guide us.

 

[Evening Mist]

Thinking it is maybe time to let this thread go, but I wanted to clarify to Dave -- I was referring to the group of church friends you said *you* had who are followers of Jesus, and saying that if they were those things, then you are very fortunate!

I have my husband, who thinks I should spend more time off line. (heh)
And I have my dear non-Christian friend who thinks I should find a different faith. But she is the most non-judgemental person I have ever known in my life! And I have a scattering of Christian women friends who I treasure, but who will probably never really understand why I struggle with what I do.

And Dave -- if I think of a good enough reason to justify feeling the way I do, I'll be sure to let you know. Maybe I'm just prone to hysteria or something. (Kidding, btw.)

 

[DaveKerwin]

If you want to end it with that, then that's up to you. Just know that you can always share anything here.

Whatever you do, do NOT listen to your unsaved friend who says to explore different faiths. There is no other name, under heaven, given to us, by which we can be saved.

 

[Evening Mist]

Dave -- I *do* listen, I respect her choices, and I still choose Jesus. Actually, He chooses me, because I would be long gone if this struggle depended on my own strength!